That's a bit of an interesting question in itself. Would trans exist if society allowed for a broader spectrum of expression and being?KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Having difficulty understanding transgendered people? I'll try to help.
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That's a fantastic question, but I don't think I have a definitive answer for it. To my mind I think trans would to some extent, as I have have transitioned quite a bit physically. Not everyone is comfortable with the way their body is, and not every trans person is uncomfortable with their body. I think many people would transition still, and there would probably be the same classifications that we have in the trans spectrum. But at the very least there would be a lot less trouble with people being themselves.Dark Knifer said:
Most of us still fall predominantly under the blue, pink, white, pink and blue, though. Well, I'm genderqueer, but the prominent transgender pride flag appeals to me more. It's a pretty flag, I also find the philosophy of it positive. The central premise of however it is held, it's always correct ... free of doubt and lacking the means to display distress as there is no upside down means to display of it. So it's a pretty potent symbol if worn. Given that it's a statement of being both out, and correct in their self image and their expression. That's also a thing to note, that whilst a lot of people fall as 'trans', they can be worlds apart. Humans are (rightfully) chaotic.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
That being said, some people don't mind being grouped trans if they are genderqueer. I personally prefer it -- aesthetics of the flag aside. Regardless it's a pretty impressive collection of identities and they all have different philosophical bases they represent. But, yeah ... as Kyuubi puts it it is pretty large... but all of them correspond to a philosophical premise within existential identification of self. Though the reason why there is a large number of popularised flags concerning gender is primarily due to a whole lot of people hold different opinions of self.
It's like philosophy, only with colours and lack thereof.
But yeah, bit confusing.
A lot of terms also cover a surprising amount overlap, in it's own way it can be amazingly inclusive even if you look at people who are cis. By that I mean most cisgender people have, to some extent, a kind of personal gender fluidity, at least in my experience, they may not identify as any type of trans, but I've never really met anyone who strictly followed all the social concepts of their birth gender. I also find that transgenderism for all it's flaws and mistreatment is also very liberating, as trans I'm free to define my self. IPaulH said:
Sometimes though the overlap can be a little confusing for me on an existential level. For a long while I wasn't exactly where I fell within the spectrum of transgender, despite knowing how I wanted to present and be. Sometimes I still find it hard to accurately place myself fully.
That's sort of the point? It doesn't necessarily exclude any one group. I can see the advantage of using LGBT in the media or in front of other audiences so they know the range of things you're talking about, I just think GSM is a term that can be used more internally as not to leave people out. The only criticism I can see is that certain groups who are into illegal sexual activity might try to adopt it as well, but no one really takes those groups seriously as it is. They could easily start affixing their own letters to "LGBT" just as easily.thaluikhain said:
As someone who is a panromantic asexual, I'm not sure if I like the idea of being grouped in as "queer". As far as I know, pansexuality and asexuality are both as legitimate classifications as LGB. It is a matter of sweating the nomenclature, but it can send the message that these others aren't real even by LGBT standards. There's usually also a letter for "Questioning", meaning the acronym starts to grow to LGBTQQIAP, and that starts to become unwieldy, and it still isn't really covering everyone that could be covered.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
At a certain point I just think the format becomes more of a liability as it becomes longer, and more open to ridicule (LGBTBBQ is a common meme).
And yeah, if you plan on spending time with various other members of the GSM community, you have to be ready for the fact that even they can be uninformed or even bigoted. A cis gay or lesbian can no more understand a transgender person in a lot of situations than a cishet person. And as an asexual, I can certainly identify with the idea of people not believing you.
Actually you make some really good points. I kinda hope GSM does catch on, it's really quite easy to work with.hentropy said:
Also panromantic asexual, five seconds of research and boom, perfect explanation for my orientation. Why didn't this realization come sooner? Thank you for bringing that up! Also good god I'm not as well versed as I could be in GSM terms.
But that aside a major thing I think is the whole LGBT/etc term is actually becoming a liability. Even in that state it's become something of a dirty four letter word, usually associated with a perception of entitlement. Which boggles my mind. Wanting equal rights is an entitlement? I think not.
As for exclusionary, ignorant, or purely bigoted in the GSM community as a whole. I've also met trans people who refuse to accept anyone is trans if they're not going for full GRS transition, or/and not straight compare to their target gender. Which doesn't surprise me, at least not anymore, it just saddens me deeply.
Oh yeah! I mean ... well. I think the difference remains in directive of agency. If there is one big criticism of Kierkegaard that I have when it comes to and otherwise pretty good example of the existential crisis that one has when pursuing the idea of transition. Moving from a state that produces despair into one that does not, is that it necessarily has to follow the will of the actor as opposed to perhaps experimentation by the actor. I still place faith on experimentation to begin with if you have questions relative to self. Primarily because there's not one ubiquitous despair that impels all counter activity to begin with ... so pretending there is one state by which will alone may achieve, it's better to assume that the self can sometimes not understand it's own passage from despair to liberation of despair.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
I think most cis people in the West experiment at one point or another, but for the grand majority this just represents an immersal in tropes and temporary charicatures of manhood or womanhood. When it becomes something that is necessary to alleviate despair, that's kind of when I might ask whether someone might actually be in some way genderqueer.
But yeah, it is liberating. Which is why I place Kierkegaard's central premise of; "It is of ultimate merit to be able to despair..." at the forefront. When operating from this position and platform, we begin to see experimentation of self impelled by a knowledge of divorce from mind and body, or mind from perception of body, as something beyond a simple idea of gender portrayal and aspects of being true to one's gender. Despair is the ultimate transformative agent. Which is why I sort of challenge the idea that if in an ideal society, merely taking a drug that drugs away being trans is ethically found wanting in merely allowing the self to be transformed by core questions relative to self and self-construction.
I know plenty of trans who have opted for visibility rather than stealth, primarily because just being able to wave a transgender pride flag, or be able to express elements of self freely with others, touches upon the necessity of validation and the pursuit of true connections with other people without having to hold anything back. I'm not saying which path someone should take, and it certainly depends on that what you wish to be your own self, and it is certainly relevant to just how dangerous it is to be open in your community.
That being said, I operate at a disadvantage towards ever being able to go stealth (Seriously, if you are genderqueer and you manage to juggle two or three (or more) seperate gender expressions without any people mixing up between two or more and people never knowing, you're CIA spy material), and so natural biases arise. I still identify as genderqueer rather than as a trans woman, despite spending most of my time presenting as a woman. I have friends who have met one aspect of me, and others who have met another side of me, and a lot of the time the two rarely intermingle. Which is perhaps why I don't go into facebook or twitter, mainly because I'd probably need to create two accounts.
But at the same time, it's kind of imperative that I'm open with people on both sides of the fence. That being said, I've been thinking more and more about what I would be if I just went full time trans woman and was done with it? It's ... pretty confusing to be honest, so being out helps to say; "Well there's reasons."
I think all people sort of feel that way. I see it less as a problem, and more a case of artistic expression. Whilst it might hurt to be confused babout what will make you happier, ultimately you wouldn't be you if you never cared in the first place. I See it as a journey more so. But I get where you're coming from. A lot of trans people feel the same way, which is why I think the overlaps in the gender umbrellas is there a lot of the time.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
If I do end up just going full time one way or another, I'll still be trans however, regardless of most of the stuff before hand. So I think it helps to have overlap. It makes it easier to organise and find other people who you might seek counselling from. Like an older trans person who's been through all that same stuff as you. It's nice ... It's like a collegiate of sororities (or fraternities if you happen to be on the other side of the fence) rather than a singular entity, indivisible. And I take comfort that the philosophies are different, but close enough to still have the overriding message of liberty of self and self-expression.
But yeah, I for one empathise completely. But from reading other stuff you've posted, you sound way more sure of yourself than I did when I first came out. I was still sure of what I wanted however, but I wasn't sure where that direction would take me. I say if you're able to ride the wave of self-expression, ride it. Own that wave as you would own any other aspect of yourself.
Well there's not a single point in there that I can disagree with. They're all very well laid out, also pretty much exactly how I feel, and I couldn't have said it any better. Probably wouldn't have either.PaulH said:
As for when I first came out on the other hand I was in a deep state of flux. I couldn't get much deeper than the fact in most all respects I'm more woman than man. I was also pretty young at the time, which caused entirely different crises for my parents and extended family. I also had a rather counter productive time later on in my teens, as most trans people I managed to meet for advice were rather strict in their definition of trans. That being that you either get the full package HRT and GRS including bottom surgery, or you're not trans. It was really counter productive to how I could identify, especially after research about MtF vaginoplasty, and realizing that it might not be for me. Luckily the therapist I had access to was far more open minded, and more highly versed in the subject.
Edit: had to clarify a point.
Okay, genuine question: What is/is there such a thing as, a person who is "transfluid"?
There's a person at my university, whom I haven't met, who apparently identifies as transfluid, which he takes to mean being whatever gender he damn well likes at the time. I say "he" mainly for simplicity's sake in this. Apparently, if you don't use genderless pronouns, or if he's deciding that he's a girl that day and you use "he" around him, or vice versa, he'll get really annoyed and irritated, and it's basically pushed anyone who remotely liked him away because he just comes off as obtuse. Given that people accept that transgender people do actually exist (and they do, obviously) then there are 4 genders as of this moment, male, female, transman, transwoman. Surely there can't be such a thing as transfluid because it implies that you yourself do not possess a gender, and thus it defeats its own argument as you can't be transfluid, which is a gender, but transfluid means that you don't have a defined gender.
Also, just thought, why do a lot of (at least, those whom I have been exposed to) trans women (someone who identifies as a woman, to clarify mostly for my own sake) feel the need to wear lots of makeup and wear dresses and such? Surely, by the logic that gender and gender roles are a social construct, then what people should wear in accordance to their gender is too? It's hypocritical, and while I understand that women, more often than men, wear dresses and makeup, it's not some rule your have to adhere to.
I understand that both those questions are very leading, what with my opinion underneath, but, to the first one especially (probably the harder of the two to answer) I would really like an answer.
There's a person at my university, whom I haven't met, who apparently identifies as transfluid, which he takes to mean being whatever gender he damn well likes at the time. I say "he" mainly for simplicity's sake in this. Apparently, if you don't use genderless pronouns, or if he's deciding that he's a girl that day and you use "he" around him, or vice versa, he'll get really annoyed and irritated, and it's basically pushed anyone who remotely liked him away because he just comes off as obtuse. Given that people accept that transgender people do actually exist (and they do, obviously) then there are 4 genders as of this moment, male, female, transman, transwoman. Surely there can't be such a thing as transfluid because it implies that you yourself do not possess a gender, and thus it defeats its own argument as you can't be transfluid, which is a gender, but transfluid means that you don't have a defined gender.
Also, just thought, why do a lot of (at least, those whom I have been exposed to) trans women (someone who identifies as a woman, to clarify mostly for my own sake) feel the need to wear lots of makeup and wear dresses and such? Surely, by the logic that gender and gender roles are a social construct, then what people should wear in accordance to their gender is too? It's hypocritical, and while I understand that women, more often than men, wear dresses and makeup, it's not some rule your have to adhere to.
I understand that both those questions are very leading, what with my opinion underneath, but, to the first one especially (probably the harder of the two to answer) I would really like an answer.
Yeah ... unlike therapists in mainstream services of psychological health, gender identity counsellors are (usually) SO MUCH better. Emphasis necessary. And in general problems also, I mean ... They helped me get back on my feet after a pretty rough series of problems. I wouldn't have finished school without their help. I certainly wouldn't have had a fairly successful pursuit of academia.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Ehhh ... yeah, I hate when people tell you what does and does not constitute what you yourself see your self as being. Not only that, but it's unnecessarily elitest. Not every trans woman can afford it, much less have even a stable job to be able to raise the monies necessary in the first place. I've also met the flipside, though. Like I had a friend who (quite politely, in this case) say to me; "If you're getting an orchi and taking 'mones ... aren't you then trans rather than GQ?" And to be fair that's a somewhat valid point given that I don't really associate much with her as a boy ... so from their perspective of meeting me, it's entirely accurate. They have no reason but to see me as trans. If that side of me is largely all they know (and it is) then it's a valid assessment by definition of self they would be familiar with.
But as much empathy I have for that side of the argument, the idea of 'SRS or bust' is cruel and deleterious to the existential argument of being transgender to begin with.
For example; All women are women ... all women elect that their womanhood will be worn as self ...
That doesn't work with the SRS or not trans argument. "Trans women are women." >>> "So I'm a woman?" >>> "Only if you have SRS." >>> "Therefore all women may not be women?" >>> "No, that not all women are trans." >>> "Therefore some women were men and decided as men to be women?" >>> "No, they ... hmmmm." Not only that, it (unhealthily) plays into the hands of certain feminists who seem far more vocal against trans people than others. You can't have ownership of manhood if you do not choose to own it.
And it's certainly not a message I would think they, nor others in the trans community, should be promoting. So it just sounds to me like a needless class division between those that can afford AND want SRS, and those that can't or don't.
(Edited for clarity)
Well Genderfluid and genderqueer are actually valid gender identites. Genderfluid people have their gender identity vary on them no almost what seems like a whim, it's not though, it's just how their brain chemistry works with them. Genderqueer can be genderfluid, but at the same time they're just variable with their gender identity more on the basis of not being exclusively gendered one way. While they're similar as I see it most genderfluid people don't choose how they present at any given time, though usually they stay in one mode a day or more. Genderqueer on the other hand are more of the mind that gender rules are mostly arbitrary and they will present how they feel or how they want to be perceived, which may vary person to person, but they value gender neutrality as part of how they define gender. Neither is wrong mind you and I know it's to give this person the benefit of the doubt on this, I know it's frustrating, but imagine how they feel. Especially being isolated because no one understands them, if they're pleasant enough, but get irritated when you misgender them at any given time just say: "Oops sorry, I don't have the easiest time getting my head around this." At which point respect their wishes and use the correct pronouns for the time. Also you could always ask them when you see them what "mode" they're in the time to avoid frustration on either side. I know it's going out of your way, but with genderfluid people it's the usually path of least resistance.Gluzzbung said:
Also in the transgender spectrum there are more than 4 genders. The 4 you mentioned are there already. You've also got agender, people who don't identify with gender period, bigender, people who identify as both genders at the same time, genderfluid, genderqueer, and others. Go here and check out the identities it'll be a helpful starting place:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender
That question you got there is actually a really important one. Because a lot of transgender people, especially transwomen are forced to conform to the stereotypes of their birth gender, which can often cause a great deal of attachment to the stereotypes of the gender their brains tell them they are. That means they'll delve in to being as much that gender as they possibly can, because it was denied to them, they'll basically fully own it. Also as a transwoman who is super girly girl in presentation, I can tell you it's not the only reason. For me I'm comfortable skirts, dresses, clothing that is super feminine in general, make up. Aside from comfort I like wearing things that appeal to my fashion sense, that I find to be really pretty, cute, or flattering, and it's part of how I identify in the feminine context within myself. I know plenty of transwomen who are tomboys too, it's what they like, how they're comfortable, and how they define femininity. So it's basically just what makes you comfortable, what fits your ideals and identity, and what you find attractive for your self to wear. Essentially all the same reasons as any other woman dresses the way she does.Gluzzbung said:
The questions are leading, but honest, and being honest in how you're curious about the subject is a good thing. It helps to foster a better understanding, in no small part because you'll get honest answers back. My answers are of course my opinion and to the best of my personal understanding, so other trans people may have a different stance. But I think I'm pretty close to the general consensus.
To an extent I agree that before you can make decisions in any rational manner you shouldn't have any surgical treatment, hormones, or drugs to attempt to address gender dysphoria. That being said this age range usually applies to kids who haven't hit puberty, during this time basically everyone is still in a formative process even where gender identity is. I had gender dysphoria problems as far back as I remember, but if I started permanent physical transition then, I probably would have done far more damage than anything else. However I started unusually young on hormones, but after puberty hit(16), because at that point my gender dysphoria was getting to the point where avoiding transition in a physical sense was starting to destroy me. At that point I could make a choice in the matter, because it was obvious that things weren't right, and it was tearing me apart inside.Snowfox_ said:
Now to the point that most people are free of gender dysphoria by young adult hood, when it was expressed earlier in life? I have issues with that, partially because people who display gender dysphoria young get it crushed by their families who freak out about it, thus begin to repress it and try to conform. These people can go through a majority of their life suppressing their gender identity, and come out in their late 20's, 30's, 40's, and later. That's a late transition, often times after they got married and/or had a family. They looked normal, acted normal, told everyone they were normal, but in reality they were dying inside because of suppressing a really important part of their identity.
Also a lot of children who get a gender dysphoria diagnosis, are actually not gender dysphoric, they're children, they're developing, and they're testing the world around them still. A lot of mental health professionals will automatically label them gender dysphoric at the drop of a hat due to personal bias, political leanings, or just plain old fashioned ignorance. When it could be a phase for the child, as most children will break the gender rules at some point in play, as they learn the world, it's rules, and the people around them. Some continue to break gender rules not out of pure gender dysphoria, or because they have a not cisgender in their true identity, but simply because they have a broader definition of their gender identity than is commonly accepted.
So to my mind the study is rather bogus on the face. Too many are repressed and lie, too many never had the issue to start, and too many aren't dysphoric but do have broader gender rules. I hope that clears the air.
Well when it comes to therapists, finding one that specializes in transgender patients is important, but more important is one that listens. A good therapist will always listen to you first, and ask questions where applicable, this is especially important when dealing with gender dysphoric patients. More often than not something intrinsically seems wrong to a transgender person with having to conform to their birth sex's rules and roles. It's essentially a situation where everything in your mind and personality says that your body and the ways you're expected t to act are wrong. Where a transgender person goes from there is entirely up to them, no therapist worth their diploma will ever demand or deny treatment. When it comes to a transgender person we know already that something is wrong, so what comes next is research and seeking help and understanding. Therapists play one of the most important roles, so having a judgemental one will automatically invalidate any trust, that means finding a new therapist. The important factor is getting a psychiatrist or psychologist whom you can trust and open up to, once you do that and share actual life experiences, they'll share their their thoughts, and ask how it lines up with you. This may sound vague, but to transition you need a trained professional to sign off on it, and they need to respect your wishes.Aelinsaar said:
Dealing with all of it huh? Well from the perspective of a transgender person, it can take research, or it can be instantly apparent on a deep personal level where you stand. From the prespective of a non-trangender(cisgender) person, it depends on how close you are to a transgender person, and how open they are. If you have a trans friend for example, and they came out to you, but are stealth other wise, talk to them, and more importantly listen to what they have to say. Each trans person is different, just like any other person, and if you respect them and try to understand what they tell you, you'll get a lot of insight. When a trans person is uncomfortable diving into details, then don't press the matter, especially if they're your friend. In the case of strangers, it's important to take it as not being any of your business, and not making a big deal about it, but if they approach you, then you let them lead, rather than pressure.
I'm not sure if I gave an adequate answer here. I might have misunderstood what you're trying to ask so if you're unsatisfied, or want more details in a specific area, feel free to ask.
Genetics Student here to help.Random Fella said:
So geneticists have found the sex determining region of the Y chromosome (which we in the field like to call "the sex determining region of the Y chromosome" or SRY coz we're creative like that). However in some very rare cases the SRY can be moved to the X chromosome by nonhomologous recombination, where pieces of DNA are swapped unevenly between chromosomes, which means that there is the testis-determining factor (TDF) signal from an X chromosome rather than a Y chromosome like in most males. This means that the XX individuals can develop as males despite not having a Y chromosome. Likewise someone with XY could have lost the SRY and develop as female. I believe these individuals are infertile but I'm not 100% about that. As for whether we call male/female by chromosomes or by SRY, from what I've seen so far, people in the field tend to use the SRY to define because that gives you the anatomy/physiology.
As for other chromosome combinations, they do exist, but not quite how they said. Y0 and YY are lethal. An X chromosome is always needed. XO is Turner which people can live with. XXY is Klinefelter which is probably the most famous sex aneuploidy which people also live with and one of the X's becomes redundant and isn't really used as much. There are also XXX superfemales and XYY supermales and others but YY is not a thing last time I checked (would have to mean two Y's from dad and nothing from mum, meaning two simultaneous unrelated events and any embryo wouldn't have the necessary X genes and would die anyway).
Hope this helps. If you want to take my word for it sweetas, if you want me to cite literature then you can jog on.
Well after research I'm willing to stand corrected and count this as about the most definitive. Some references would help for people who don't quite get it, or need more info.AwesomeHatMan said:
Hey Kyuubi,AwesomeHatMan said:
I know that you've been busy/maybe you just don't want to answer the questions I've asked, but if possible I would appreciate it if you could answer them.
Cheers
Oh I'm happy to answer, but going back to earlier pages for and trying to do long answer posts keeps giving me the worst head aches, so I apologize for missing your question the first time around.AwesomeHatMan said:
1: To answer this I'll have to also explain what gender dysphoria feels like. That is to say you don't feel right in your birth assigned sex, it feels wrong, your mind constantly tells you this, you see the opposite sex and you know that is how you should be. Then comes transition, when I began to move my physical self, roles, dress code, behaviour to that of the gender that I identify with. That was actually the most liberating and fulfilling thing I've experienced. Suddenly everything wasn't wrong for me, everything felt more natural for me, it felt right, something that had been so wrong, was now correct.
2: Well that question is a bit leading in a way... I am me, but at the same being transgender, being myself in the context of being a woman, my journey are the unique life experiences that all make up my identity. I can't make that go away, it's there with me forever, and even if I could, and did I wouldn't be the same person. I wouldn't be me.
3: That would be a much different world than the one we live in if it were possible. Unfortunately it's not the world we live in we categorize gender, we need to identify it, it's how we humans work. To most cisgender people this isn't really that important, they are mentally and physically the same, they actively function in a way that's natural to them. But it's still also their identity. For transgender people gender becomes very important, because we aren't the same on the physical level as we are in our minds, that's gender dysphoria, it makes an impact, and it makes gender identity extremely important. Gender identity for transgender people becomes something that needs validation, because for a long time in our lives we couldn't get it.
Now on a side note: For everyone I've missed thus far, I'll try to go back and get to more questions I've missed as soon as I feel up to it; however, if you're impatient you can post a perma link to the post with your question, or the question again, and I'll answer it as soon as I see it.