Hello, Elliot Page

Casual Shinji

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Still waiting for an answer to this question:

"Not every creep is violent and brazen. Some are mildly concerning. Others are borderline innocent. These lesser creeps are kept out by the sign.
Do you think it's worth it to give lesser creeps more opportunities?"
So other people need to be punished for the possibility of someone who is slightly creepy potentially being slightly creepy? What about women wearing short skirts or other revealing clothes? Children in bathing suits at municipal pools? Should they be outlawed because some people might get creepy about it? Or should only trans people suffer under these restrictions and get even more stigmatized?

You should probably outlaw public bathrooms entirely, as well as pools, if you want to give these slight creeps the least amount of oppertunities. Yet this level of paranoia is conveniently aimed only toward trans-women. 'Oh no, it's totally not about excluding or stigmatizing trans-women. We just bring it up whenever the topic of trans people is being discussed in any sort of way, because we're worried about the creeps. It's totally not us deliberately linking trans-women to being creepy, oh no.'
 
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Houseman

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So other people need to be punished for the possibility of someone who is slightly creepy potentially being slightly creepy?
If you think that's a punishment, then you must think that men are currently being punished for not being allowed into women's restrooms and changing areas, right?
That's what you're saying isn't it? That anyone who is excluded from anything for any reason is being punished?

What about women wearing short skirts or other revealing clothes? Children in bathing suits at municipal pools? Should they be outlawed because some people might get creepy about it?
That's why I asked "do you think it's worth it?"
I noticed, by the way, that you didn't answer the question.

To find out the answer to your questions quoted above, however, we need to weigh the pros and cons. What do we, as a society, value more? The freedom to dress how you like? The freedom to be safe from creeps in bathrooms and changing spaces? You decide. These are questions for you, not for me.

. Yet this level of paranoia is conveniently aimed only toward trans-women
If you've noticed, I didn't say anything about trans-women. I just mentioned creeps following women into bathrooms due to a hypothetical change in the rules that allows this loophole.

But you have failed to address the argument, and choose to instead accuse me of having ulterior motives.
 

Casual Shinji

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If you think that's a punishment, then you must think that men are currently being punished for not being allowed into women's restrooms and changing areas, right?
That's what you're saying isn't it? That anyone who is excluded from anything for any reason is being punished?
If women's bathrooms are the only available bathrooms, then yes, that would be punishment. But seeing as that's not what I'm saying, and you know it's not, and seeing as men have their own designated public bathrooms, this isn't exactly a problem for them, is it? As opposed to trans-women, who either apparently need to go through a screening process before being allowed in the women's bathroom, go to the men's bathroom and feel totally uncomfortable there, or pray for a unisex bathroom, which most establishments don't have.

That's why I asked "do you think it's worth it?"
I noticed, by the way, that you didn't answer the question.

To find out the answer to your questions quoted above, however, we need to weigh the pros and cons. What do we, as a society, value more? The freedom to dress how you like? The freedom to be safe from creeps in bathrooms and changing spaces? You decide. These are questions for you, not for me.
My answer to this question should be very, very obvious, don't act like you don't know it.

If you've noticed, I didn't say anything about trans-women. I just mentioned creeps following women into bathrooms due to a hypothetical change in the rules that allows this loophole.

But you have failed to address the argument, and choose to instead accuse me of having ulterior motives.
Sure, you just brought it up in a thread that's about trans people. No ulterior motives at all.

And I see you've resorted to the ol' 'you have failed to argue/answer my question' shtick that you love doing so much, which only indicates you really can't read between the lines or you're just trolling. But I can read between the lines and I'm not trolling, so I'll just say it outright; you're transphobic and you're paranoid. Don't act coy about it. Have some self respect in that sense at least.

But hey, you can blame me for conversing this topic with you, because I was fully aware of where it would end up, yet I went ahead and did it away.
 
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Houseman

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As opposed to trans-women, who either apparently need to go through a screening process before being allowed in the women's bathroom, go to the men's bathroom and feel totally uncomfortable there
So the question that you keep ignoring is this: What's more important, the comfort of a very small minority, or the increased risk created by loosening restrictions?
 

Avnger

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Can you demonstrate how it is a false dichotomy?
You asserted an " increased risk created by loosening restrictions" without evidence. Gethsemani is therefore perfectly correct to dismiss it without evidence.

That's how burden of proof works. Socrates would be disappointed.
 

Houseman

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You asserted an " increased risk created by loosening restrictions" without evidence.
You need evidence that men attack or creep on women in bathrooms and changing spaces?
Here's a list of 23 incidents. https://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF16F27.pdf

You need evidence that these incidents would increase if restrictions were loosened?
I can't provide evidence for something that hasn't happened yet. But hey, if you're okay with experimenting with people's safety...

Maybe all these incidents will just stop happening because men will no longer be interested in creeping on women for some mysterious reason? Maybe what really gets them off is sneaking around in places they aren't supposed to be? Maybe it'll lose the appeal if they're allowed to be there?
 

Terminal Blue

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If you think that's a punishment, then you must think that men are currently being punished for not being allowed into women's restrooms and changing areas, right?
Let me throw some hypotheticals at you.

You are out with your baby, and you need to change them, but the only changing facilities are in the women's bathroom. What do you do? Do you change your baby in public? Do you take them to the men's bathroom and put them in the sink? What do you do with the used nappy? Do you put it in a regular bin (and break the law?) Do you wait until you get home and risk leaking baby shit everywhere? Or, do you just use the women's bathroom?

Alternately, you are out with your young daughter. She needs the toilet, but is too young to go by herself. What do you do? Do you force her to hold it in until you get home? Do you take her to the men's toilet and force her to go to the bathroom in front of a bunch of adult men? Do you ask a random stranger to escort your child to the bathroom? Or, do you just take her to women's bathroom and let her do her business in safety and comfort?

The reason conservatives never think of how impractical it would actually be to actually ban men from women's bathrooms is because conservatives struggle to imagine men as active parents. That line of thinking is punitive to men, it prevents men from being equal partners in parenthood and relegates them to the role of providing awkward moral support to the women who actually do things. Even as a cis man, you are perfectly entitled to go into a womens' bathroom if you have a reason to be there.

You need evidence that men attack or creep on women in bathrooms and changing spaces?
Also, can I say how funny it is to see you suddenly pretending to care about sexual violence.

I agree with you though, men are trash. All men. Without exceptions. It's only natural to assume that any man is a violent, degenerate rapist. That's why, instead of targeting innocent trans people, we should be focusing our efforts on restricting the ability of men to move freely in society. As a modest proposal, I would propose some kind of mandatory collar which can deliver electric shocks to men who are giving in to their natural subhuman urges. Long term however, I think the only real solution will be to drastically reduce the male population through sex-selective abortion, so they can no longer pose a risk to normal people.

That way, noone would ever have to worry about using a bathroom. The remaining men would of course have to pee inside transparent boxes where they can be observed for signs of relapse.
 

Houseman

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You are out with your baby, and you need to change them, but the only changing facilities are in the women's bathroom. What do you do? Do you change your baby in public? Do you take them to the men's bathroom and put them in the sink? What do you do with the used nappy? Do you put it in a regular bin (and break the law?) Do you wait until you get home and risk leaking baby shit everywhere? Or, do you just use the women's bathroom?
Anything that isn't the women's bathroom.

Alternately, you are out with your young daughter. She needs the toilet, but is too young to go by herself. What do you do? Do you force her to hold it in until you get home? Do you take her to the men's toilet and force her to go to the bathroom in front of a bunch of adult men? Do you ask a random stranger to escort your child to the bathroom? Or, do you just take her to women's bathroom and let her do her business in safety and comfort?
Take her to the men's toilet.

Also, can I say how funny it is to see you suddenly pretending to care about sexual violence.
Accusing me of having ulterior motives or "suddenly caring" is not an argument.

So far:
4 people disagree with my arguments
0 people have addressed my arguments
 

Houseman

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So where are we now in this discussion?
People who don't have a leg to stand on are ignoring the arguments and calling everyone who disagrees with them some type of bigot, as is typical when facts confront feelings.
 

Gordon_4

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Let me throw some hypotheticals at you.

You are out with your baby, and you need to change them, but the only changing facilities are in the women's bathroom. What do you do? Do you change your baby in public? Do you take them to the men's bathroom and put them in the sink? What do you do with the used nappy? Do you put it in a regular bin (and break the law?) Do you wait until you get home and risk leaking baby shit everywhere? Or, do you just use the women's bathroom?

Alternately, you are out with your young daughter. She needs the toilet, but is too young to go by herself. What do you do? Do you force her to hold it in until you get home? Do you take her to the men's toilet and force her to go to the bathroom in front of a bunch of adult men? Do you ask a random stranger to escort your child to the bathroom? Or, do you just take her to women's bathroom and let her do her business in safety and comfort?

The reason conservatives never think of how impractical it would actually be to actually ban men from women's bathrooms is because conservatives struggle to imagine men as active parents. That line of thinking is punitive to men, it prevents men from being equal partners in parenthood and relegates them to the role of providing awkward moral support to the women who actually do things. Even as a cis man, you are perfectly entitled to go into a womens' bathroom if you have a reason to be there.



Also, can I say how funny it is to see you suddenly pretending to care about sexual violence.

I agree with you though, men are trash. All men. Without exceptions. It's only natural to assume that any man is a violent, degenerate rapist. That's why, instead of targeting innocent trans people, we should be focusing our efforts on restricting the ability of men to move freely in society. As a modest proposal, I would propose some kind of mandatory collar which can deliver electric shocks to men who are giving in to their natural subhuman urges. Long term however, I think the only real solution will be to drastically reduce the male population through sex-selective abortion, so they can no longer pose a risk to normal people.

That way, noone would ever have to worry about using a bathroom. The remaining men would of course have to pee inside transparent boxes where they can be observed for signs of relapse.
Well the obvious overall answer to scenario A is that changing facilities be separate and unisex as they are in Australia. The immediate answer is to pound on the door as loud as possible to the appropriate facilities and announce yourself requiring their use.

Scenario B you take them into the men’s toilet and she uses a cubicle with a locked door which you then stand in front of like the masculine parental sentinel you are.
 
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Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
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Scenario B you take them into the men’s toilet and she uses a cubicle with a locked door which you then stand in front of like the masculine parental sentinel you are.
Yes. It is far from unknown for male guardians to take girls needing toilet assistance to a cubicle in the male toilets - it's not that common obviously (mostly a factor of how rarely men are in sole guardianship of a girl in the relevant age range out in public), but just about everyone will have seen it at some point and know why it's happening.

Most public toilets these days also have unisex baby changing facilities. Progress, eh? It's great.
 
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Gordon_4

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Yes. It is far from unknown for male guardians to take girls needing toilet assistance to a cubicle in the male toilets - it's not that common obviously (mostly a factor of how rarely men are in sole guardianship of a girl in the relevant age range out in public), but just about everyone will have seen it at some point and know why it's happening.

Most public toilets these days also have unisex baby changing facilities. Progress, eh? It's great.
Yeah I don’t even remember the changing rooms being any other way.