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Trunkage

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It is an argument though.

You may not think it's a good argument, and that's fine, but people are allowed to be sceptical of your motivations. The fact that you're more worried about some hypothetical situation where men pretend to be trans to gain access to women's bathrooms, which is actually completely unnecessary and wouldn't provide very much, if any legal protection beyond what already exists, does not register as authentic if that's the only situation you've demonstrated any concern for victims of sexual assault.

I'm of course joking about making men pee in glass boxes, but there's a grain of truth in it. I personally do feel inherently less safe around men, I've been a victim of a lot of male violence and there's always going to be deeply wired part of my brain which associates men with threat. I think we all, consciously or subconsciously, recognize that men are dangerous, that the way they behave and act makes them a danger to others, and that there's something very wrong with men in our society. Not all men, of course, that was a joke, but enough men to make the threat very real. It is interesting to me to see you admit that men are a threat to women (and trans people, and GNC men), because previously you've resisted the idea that there's anything wrong with men as a class.

So let me phrase the joke as an argument. Why are you so concerned with punishing trans people for what is ultimately a problem with men? Would it not make more sense, instead, to focus on men, because ultimately the social problem we are talking about here is men.
Well, I think you missed a couple of things here. (Noting this may have come up in numerous other threads about this)

HOW are you going to determine that someone is trans? Eg. If a ‘manish’ looking woman comes up to the bathroom, who gets to determine whether they can enter? Most toilets don’t have guards. So, I assume that the general population will have to call the police to fix the situation. Do the police have a right to strip search someone checking for genitalia? What happens if they have a vagina? Or do we have to do chromosome testing before anyone is allowed in? What happens to the accusers when they falsely accuse a cis woman as trans? Remember the Olympics when women had to strip before competing? And how that wasn’t effective and men still got in and competed in women events?

Also, if you are a pedophile, you don’t need to become trans at all. Because.... and I can’t stress this enough, no one is guarding the door. You can just go in. Like, the Yaniv situation.... I don’t care if you are a man, woman or trans. Her actions is dodgy regardless of gender. Pretending her as trans is the problem doesn’t give the whole picture because it wouldn’t be acceptable behaviour by anyone
 

Revnak

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Far more than that. Though most of them are the benign variety that would be stopped by a plastic sign.
Weird that the only solution to men sucking ass is endangering the LGBT community to attacks by men. Perhaps, maybe, possibly, unisex bathrooms with actually private stalls could resolve this issue?
No, that’s too hard!

Yes, that is exactly what I am doing.
Yeah, that’s why it’s funny. It wouldn’t be funny if you weren’t doing it.
 

Houseman

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Perhaps, maybe, possibly, unisex bathrooms with actually private stalls could resolve this issue?
No, that’s too hard!
Yes, remodeling every bathroom in the nation would also cost trillions of dollars, but even then, I don't think it'll fully solve the problem. It's still a place where people, particularly women, are cornered and vulnerable. How private are these stalls? Are they going to go down to the floor and all the way up to the ceiling? No more of those stupid gaps where you can make eye-contact with people looking in? Are they soundproof? smellproof?

You tell me how hard that is going to be, and if it's worth it.
 

Kae

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Lose 1d20 sanity points.
Yes, remodeling every bathroom in the nation would also cost trillions of dollars, but even then, I don't think it'll fully solve the problem. It's still a place where people, particularly women, are cornered and vulnerable. How private are these stalls? Are they going to go down to the floor and all the way up to the ceiling? No more of those stupid gaps where you can make eye-contact with people looking in? Are they soundproof? smellproof?

You tell me how hard that is going to be, and if it's worth it.
Says the person advocating for ID scanners at the entrance of every bathroom.
 

Houseman

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Says the person advocating for ID scanners at the entrance of every bathroom.
Yep, either way, trillions of dollars.
Personally, I think my far-fetched plan is better.
 

Revnak

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Yes, remodeling every bathroom in the nation would also cost trillions of dollars, but even then, I don't think it'll fully solve the problem. It's still a place where people, particularly women, are cornered and vulnerable. How private are these stalls? Are they going to go down to the floor and all the way up to the ceiling? No more of those stupid gaps where you can make eye-contact with people looking in? Are they soundproof? smellproof?

You tell me how hard that is going to be, and if it's worth it.
I dunno, I think it’d be pretty great. And trillions of dollars for bathroom remodels is probably overshooting.
 

Kae

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You don’t get the plan, he’s trying to get pedophiles and rapist to learn code. It’s encouraging upskilling
Or pickpockets, I guess you're right after all.
 

Terminal Blue

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I just did some quick searches, and I'm not seeing any source that says that it's illegal to throw used diapers in the trash. At least, that's how it is in the US of A.
Okay, well it's illegal in the UK.

Because I find it preferable than going into the women's restroom.
Why?

You, however, seem to place the few over the many. You're willing to allow many women to feel uncomfortable so that a few trans people can feel comfortable. Is that accurate?
I think we need to ask the question of when discomfort is reasonable.

Because the same argument could apply to a lot of things you probably wouldn't agree with, like segregation. Segregation might have facilitated the emotional comfort of the white majority, but those emotions are not a reasonable basis for public policy because they are based on prejudice, and prejudice in and of itself is socially harmful and not something we need to accept.

In 1998, Mary Daly, a feminist theologian was forced out of her tenured position after refusing to allow male students into some of her classes, which triggered a lawsuit against the college at which she taught. Rather than accept the college's ruling that she had to teach male students, Daly protested by not attending her own classes, resulting in her being forced to resign. Daly consistent argued that allowing men into her classes would mean that women would not feel safe to participate or develop as people, and thus destroy the purpose of the class itself. The college, and the law, disagreed.

You are not necessarily allowed to discriminate against people on the basis of facilitating emotional comfort. Ironically, I find people like Daly fascinating even though she was incredibly transphobic, because her transphobia comes out of a feeling of anger and resentment towards men that not only strikes me as insightful, but also ironically resonate with me as someone who has spent their life trying to escape maleness. Men really are awful, and I cannot blame women for not trusting men or wanting them around, but that emotional feeling is not a justification for discrimination.

Currently, your question is loaded with the assumption that I want to "punish" trans people, or that restricting them from certain bathrooms are "punishments". You have not demonstrated any of this to be true. This is merely emotionally charged language.
You are arguing in favour of putting trans people (and GNC people for that matter) in danger, and restricting them from services and facilities that they need.

There are a lot of things that it is not really safe to do in a men's bathroom, because again, the problem is men. The problem is that men cannot be trusted whatever bathroom they are in.

The answer is that it would require a miracle to make all men harmless.
Not really.

It just requires that men take responsibility for their own actions, and that we enforce men's responsibility for their own actions. Wringing hands about men pretending to be trans to assault women seems meaningless when men can literally assault women in public and suffer few or no consequences. It means nothing when a woman cannot report sexual assault without facing disbelief or pejorative assumptions.

One of the biggest obstacles to this, and to dealing with sexual violence as it actually exists, is the willingness of people to retreat into myths about sexual violence rather than facing the reality. The reality is that almost all rapists are not creepy men who hide in bathrooms, they are husbands and boyfriends who can present themselves as entirely normal, they are celebrities and powerful people who have the clout to get away with what they do, they are college students who seem like good normal kids and maybe just like to have fun a bit too much. Many of them are children, or basically children. Sexual objectification of women and the ability to ignore consent are not weird or deviant traits in men, they are part of the normal social psychology of men.

Also, if you are a pedophile, you don’t need to become trans at all. Because.... and I can’t stress this enough, no one is guarding the door. You can just go in. Like, the Yaniv situation.... I don’t care if you are a man, woman or trans. Her actions is dodgy regardless of gender. Pretending her as trans is the problem doesn’t give the whole picture because it wouldn’t be acceptable behaviour by anyone
Exactly.

Even before I came out as non-binary, I would sometimes go into women's bathrooms to do my makeup because it's just safer. The worst that will happen is that someone will tell you to leave, whereas the worst that will happen in the men's bathrooms is that someone will kick the shit out of you. Really, it's kind of an easy decision.

Most women are pretty reasonable and understanding, they deserve more credit for that.
 
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Mister Mumbler

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Not easier, no, but if nobody wants to prosecute you, it's quite a bit safer.
No it's not. Like I said, this isn't Lethal Weapon where you can shout "I'm trans!" and the police just snap their fingers and go "aw shucks, we'll get ya next time.", this is real life. Any lawyer worth his paycheck would rip it apart (lack of doctor/therapist notes, no hormonal treatments, or surgeries, etc), and you would have to be insane if you thought they would not be able to find a jury that would convict them (the furor around hypothetical bathroom attacks alone should tell you that).
 
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Kae

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Are molesters like vampires?

Maybe I'm getting it wrong but it sounds like the sign acts like a cross to a vampire, at least from what Houseman says.
 

Houseman

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Because I am not a woman.

You are not necessarily allowed to discriminate against people on the basis of facilitating emotional comfort. Ironically, I find people like Daly fascinating even though she was incredibly transphobic, because her transphobia comes out of a feeling of anger and resentment towards men that not only strikes me as insightful, but also ironically resonate with me as someone who has spent their life trying to escape maleness. Men really are awful, and I cannot blame women for not trusting men or wanting them around, but that emotional feeling is not a justification for discrimination.
So, are gendered bathrooms and changing rooms discriminatory as they are now, just concerning cis men and women? Are you of the belief that a straight man should be able to walk into a female changing area, and just hang out there?

Doesn't that also count as "discriminating against people on the basis of facilitating emotional comfort"?

It just requires that men take responsibility for their own actions, and that we enforce men's responsibility for their own actions.
Like I said, it would take a miracle.

One of the biggest obstacles to this, and to dealing with sexual violence as it actually exists, is the willingness of people to retreat into myths about sexual violence rather than facing the reality.
Like the myths of hate-crime gangs roaming the streets, just waiting to jump any LGBT person they see, especially in bathrooms?

Are molesters like vampires?

Maybe I'm getting it wrong but it sounds like the sign acts like a cross to a vampire, at least from what Houseman says.
Read post #400 again (or for the first time) if you're confused.
 

Casual Shinji

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HOW are you going to determine that someone is trans? Eg. If a ‘manish’ looking woman comes up to the bathroom, who gets to determine whether they can enter? Most toilets don’t have guards. So, I assume that the general population will have to call the police to fix the situation. Do the police have a right to strip search someone checking for genitalia? What happens if they have a vagina? Or do we have to do chromosome testing before anyone is allowed in? What happens to the accusers when they falsely accuse a cis woman as trans? Remember the Olympics when women had to strip before competing? And how that wasn’t effective and men still got in and competed in women events?
Maybe get a jury of around 5 women at every bathroom to judge whether a woman is feminine enough to enter. Make like a little catwalk so she can strut her stuff. I say the first 5 women to make use of the bathroom that day get to be on the jury.
 

Casual Shinji

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We should take this one further and set up a federal department that rules only on this, the American Department of Women's Restroom Safety in America (ADWRSA). Anyone wishing to enter a Women's Restroom needs to send all relevant records, several pictures of themselves and a personal letter to the department. The Department will then examine the request and grant a personal Women's Restroom Pass (WRP) if the applicant is deemed a proper woman (trans or otherwise). To make sure only approved people enter Women's Restrooms they will be secured by electrical locks that can only be opened with a WRP, retinal scan and personal ten digit code.
Until humanity developes mind reading capabilities it's the only way to be sure.

I would also advise to post testosterone sniffing dogs in the mean time.