Hitting... Women

[Raikas]

Ideally, you shouldn't be running around hitting anyone. Regardless of gender, y'know?

. What I'm looking for, explicity might I add, is a reason not to do it. Those of you who deem it wrong please tell me why. I want to know the logic behind this train of thought. Don't simply tell me "Because." Don't tell me about how you personally don't do it. Or how it irks you the wrong way. I'm looking for a logical argument.

I'd say that it's a rule based on average regarding sexual dimorphism in conjunction with socially-conditioned approved actives for different genders.

In other words, the average man is taller and has a higher percentage of muscle than the average woman (obviously there are going to be outliers on each side, but we're talking overall). So on average, a man hitting a woman has the capacity to do significantly more damage than a woman hitting a man.

Then you add in the cultural bit (which obviously has even more variety, but again, we're talking averages) where men are encouraged to be stronger and women are encouraged to be slimmer, and that exaggerates the basic biological difference, so instead of being just 15% larger and 40% more muscular, those guys are even larger and the women even tinier.

So I'd say it's a rule that works for the same reason that fighters fight in weight classes (and the reason there are sayings about not bringing a gun to a knife fight and the like) - it's rarely a fair fight. That it's sometimes a fair fight (and occasionally tipped in favour of the female) does not change the overall average of it.

 

[In Search of Username]

The average woman is physically weaker than the average man. Now, if you're being attacked by a woman who's a wrestler or something, perfectly valid and sensible to fight back. But in most cases a woman is likely to be physically weaker than a man, so it's generally not considered okay for a man to hit her since he's unlikely to be in much danger from her to justify self-defence, and it could do her some serious harm.

 

[Krantos]

Well, one reason not to hit back might be that if the authorities get involved, chances are they'll assume the man was the aggressor, especially in domestic situations, and you could find yourself in legal hotwater if you don't have any good witnesses to back up your side of the story. Some would say hitting back isn't worth the risk of an assault charge, especially as on average women are physically weaker than men so restraining the assailant wouldn't be too hard in most cases.

Actually, that depends on the police. I had something like this happen in my family a number of years ago. My sister (between 17 and 19 at the time) got in to an argument with my step dad. She slapped him. He slapped her back. She called the cops. Cops basically said there's nothing they can do unless they both wanted to press charges since she slapped him first.

OT: It's a societal thing. There really isn't much justification for it anymore. Yes, you can say that men tend to be stronger, but that's only a reason for them not to hit a woman unprovoked. If anyone attacks a stronger person during an argument, they need to expect to be attacked back.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

I need to get this off my mind... but has The Escapist community got an issue with hitting women? I see these threads appear frequently and I get this uneasy feeling that people are just looking for an excuse, or perhaps seeking validation. Not specifically directed at the OP, but on a trend I've noticed.

Here's the short and sweet version. Violence is bad. It just is. Nobody comes out of a violent encounter the better. Whether it be physical, emotional, mental or social, violence leaves its mark, ALWAYS.

In the scenario you described, the woman was wrong to slap the man. It paints a negative picture, even if context shows her to be in the right at that moment the slap weakens her argument. Whenever a person lashes out physically it means they have forgone rationality and resorted to a primitive means to resolve a confrontation. I know we are animals, but we really don't have to act like animals.

The man was then wrong to slap her in return. An Eye for an Eye leaves the world blind. Forgetting the fact that a slap, while still an act of violence, amounts to nothing more then a stinging sensation and a bruised ego. A retaliation to a slap is not a response to a threat, but a petty act of revenge with little motivation beyond soothing your ego (which as far as I'm concerned, is nothing but hot air if you think violence makes things better).

A strong person, someone confident in their rightness, would not have acted as such. A few choice words would have made a better statement then a physical knee-jerk response.

Violence is bad. Sometimes it is a necessary evil, but those situations are rare exceptions (and those capable of using violence with measured restraint are a vast minority). The world is saturated with needless violence for petty gains and ego trips. This is just one of those situations where going with the flow isn't worth it.

 

[Blue Hero]

If I don't hit women, how else am I supposed to maintain my appearance as a ripped, manly Adonis? These muscles ain't gonna stay muscular all by themselves y'know. It takes a lot of hard work and dedication.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

I think sometimes reasons and limitations are specialized. I am a part of the 'most feared/threatening' demographic. I'm 6'2(188 cm) black man who works out. As such (and I'll exclude the escapist because we are all socially minded people) I'm seen as the threat. The Bully.

No matter what happened, Everyone is going to look at me and say that I could have controlled the situation, that I was never in any danger, or just by virtue of how I look, that I must have been the trouble maker. Even though I'm not a bad person, I've been talked to by cops a few times in my life. Even as a mistake.

I lived in Montreal for a few years. I had a fight with my then Girlfriend. I got pissed off, so I wanted to call home. My area code is 914. I turned to yell back at her and hit another one by mistake. Yup. 911. I realized the mistake, hung up and tried again.

30 minutes later, there was a knock on the door. Cops were there. I had to explain the situation, and my ex was trying to tell them everything was ok, but she was a hysterical yeller, so she looked a mess. Yeah, we did have a fight, to which we mentioned, but I never did anything but yell. The lead cop came into my apartment, looked around and saw everything was in place (I assumed he was looking for signs of distress since we didn't know they were coming so we wouldn't have cleaned up) and decided it might have been a mistake after all.

But before they went, he gave us a warning. More over, he gave me a warning. He looked straight at me and said that if they were called again, I was going to jail. Even if it was a mistake. Because someone will have to be considered the aggressor or trouble maker, and the courts always side with the females.

Now, this isn't a law on the books. It's a Mores. But we all know it to be true.

As much as we have stereotypes we wholly accept for the genders (When women get angry, they see red, lose control of their emotions and lashed out), we forget them when it's convenient (why would a woman go threaten a bigger guy? it makes no sense. He must have started the whole thing). We as a society want to protect the woman because (usually) there's no way she can protect herself. Mores and cultural acceptances are slated against the man in confrontation, so that's why he should never hit the woman.

I don't care about the lasting damage argument. It's bullshit. After the few times I've talked to a woman after she lost it and she hit someone, the answer was always the same: 'I didn't care, I just wanted to hurt her/him at that point'

Why do we generally allow most women to get away with the crime just because most of the time she can't commit it as well as a man? We have laws to arrest or fine people for simply having the intent to do things. The intent of carrying an illegal weapon, to distribute alcohol to minors, to commit larceny or murder. Just the intent of doing these actions is enough to get a trip in front of the judge. And not only do these women have intent, but they actually committed the crime: Assault (by lifting her hand in accordance of the will to slap and harm the person) and Battery (by physically harming the person).

Tl:dr

Genetic Standpoint: Everyone should keep their damn hands to themselves because if you take away morality, anyone can punch your lights out if you batter them. That's on you. You rolled the dice once you punched, you made it into a physical thing. God/Science/Power Man Help you.

Cultural/Social/Legal Stand Point: You're always in the wrong if you're male and you're dealing with females. I've even noticed two females fighting and the cops just breaking it up with no arrests... which I never got. Yeah, the idea with more muscle mass, we have more natural armor than females. But if it's a woman fighting another woman, why is that ok? they have just as much capability to harm each other.

Anyway, if you're a male, you're always in the wrong dealing with females. You're always held to a higher standard. You're supposed to have more control over a woman. You're supposed to be suck it all up. You can walk away. Yes, she could do all those things too, also not slap you... but what do you expect? She's a woman.

... People with that mindset, do you have any idea how condescending that is to women? It's actually a bit abhorrent.

 

[Rattja]

What I'm looking for, explicity might I add, is a reason not to do it.

Not to hit first or not to retaliate?

In either case, hitting is kinda pointless if you ask me. All it does is to show that you have "lost", since you could not think of any way to solve the situation.

So you had an argument, you got slapped, so you retaliate and do the same. Now what? You now know you both are frustrated over the situation, but have not solved anything.

One reason could be to be the bigger person, if that' worth something to you.
Another would be to demonstrate control over yourself.
I see violence as a desperation act, when you run out of ideas, so I think a smart person would not hit anyone (you are welcome to prove me wrong on that one).

That's reason enough for me. Been hit several times, by both genders, and I don't hit back, don't even get angry. It was partly my fault for pissing them off anyways, even if I did not intend to. You can do far more damage with just a few words anyways if that's what you want.

When it comes to why people react, I think it may have something to do with that we see men get hit all the time. They fight, punch, kick and throw their way through action movies or games all the time. It's easy to think that a simple slap from a woman could never actually hurt a man, but a man could really mess her up with just one punch.
Along with reasons given by other people already.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

You shouldn't hit a woman because you shouldn't hit anyone. If you fear for your life/safety to the point where you feel you need to physically defend yourself then sure, it does not matter the gender of your assailant. How often does that happen? I haven't been in a fight since I was in middle school.
The people who say "never hit a woman" for the most part aren't talking about this bizarre, one in a million scenario people dream up of the woman in a back alley coming at you with a broken beer bottle. They are talking about people who get upset, lose their temper and hit a woman they know or are in a relationship with because they can.
If everyone just used common sense there would be less of these types of threads.

Pretty much said every thing i wanted to say, except better.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I need to get this off my mind... but has The Escapist community got an issue with hitting women?

Sure seems like it sometimes.

In answer to the OP...

1. You shouldn't really be hitting anyone unless circumstances dictate that you absolutely have to.
2. You certainly shouldn't be hitting anyone simply "because they started it". That excuse stops being relevant after kindergarten.
3. If the person hitting you is physically smaller than you, or you are in any way, shape or form a trained combatant, you should be exercising SUPREME restraint. Not only do the odds of you causing serious physical harm spike dramatically, but the law will take a dim view of your shenanigans.

 

[Robert Marrs]

I'm all for true equality. I feel like if a woman puts their hands on you, you should be able to treat them as you would if anyone else hit you. That being said its just a bad idea. Chances are if the police show up you are going to jail regardless of who started it. Hell you don't even have to hit a woman, all she has to do is say you did or have before and you can be removed from your home or arrested. Your best bet in a situation like that is to lock yourself away somewhere and call the police immediately. Its the only way to protect yourself but it still might not work. The worst kind of people will take advantage of this. There are a lot of women out their who realize the law will probably be on their side no matter what and they use that. They verbally and physically abuse men (even in public) because they know that man probably wont do anything because if he does he risks going to jail or even getting beaten up by other men who witness it. They had an episode of What Would You Do that went into those types of situations and the outcome was not surprising. At the end of the day people just need to learn to keep their hands to themselves regardless of gender. Just one of those genders usually gets to put their hands wherever they want without consequence.

 

[gargantual]

Recently I went to see The Wolf of Wall Street. Easily one of the most hilarious movies I've seen in a long time. I was completely engrossed in the movie until one specific point. It was the scene where Nyomi tells Jordan that she is divorcing him and plans to take the kids. Jordan then reacts as we expect him to and the couple begins to argue. But then Nyomi slaps Jordan. Jordan in turn slaps her and entire audience did a deep *inhale. Immediately, in my mind, I understood what people were bothered by, but I could not comprehend the why. I've been raised from two schools of thought. The first, from my grandmother who gave me explicit directions that if anyone ever messed with me I was allowed to knock them out. The second is from my step-mother who told me I'm allowed to do the same thing, as in the first school, but not with women. I asked her, "why?" She responded "Because I said so". Back then I simply had to accept that answer, but I'm older now.

Now before you go posting this is NOT a debate about whether it is right or wrong to hit women. I don't care about your opinions in that regard since I already know how I feel about the issue. What I'm looking for, explicity might I add, is a reason not to do it. Those of you who deem it wrong please tell me why. I want to know the logic behind this train of thought. Don't simply tell me "Because." Don't tell me about how you personally don't do it. Or how it irks you the wrong way. I'm looking for a logical argument. (And no, just because I wish to hear the reasons behind the second school of thought doesn't mean there is something inherently wrong with the first school.) One thing though, whatever your reason may be, if it does not follow the above requirements or is in any way demeaning to women I will not accept it.

First Bill Burr's stand up show "You People are all the same". Then this OT thread. I knew this issue was gonna resurface in the national conversation somewhere.

Peep this from 42:43 onward.

 

[nariette]

It depends. Anita Sarkeesian made a vlog about this defining violence against women. She said "Violence against women as in women who can't defend themselves properly or when they haven't given you a reason to hit them. A woman in the army who gets shot is therefore not classified as violence against women." Which I agree with. I'm against violence in all sorts, but if a woman hits you for no apparent reason, slap her back. No need to break her skull though, if violence is neccesary you should respond with an appropriate amount.

 

[vid87]

In these cases the actions seem steeped in traditional gender roles of domination and submission and lose the context self-defense or plain hurt feelings.

I wonder how people would react if a film showed a couple who absolutely hatred each other and at one point lose control and just start pounding on each other, as in a full-on brawl of savage anger where both man and woman punched, kicked, slapped, bit, clawed, whatever in mutual animosity. Would people consider that PC or still only see the gender lines?

 

[lokicdn]

You don't hit women or anyone for that matter because that is what children do. Adults learn this skill called talking and realize that hitting is reserved for self defense.

 

[GonzoGamer]

I wouldn't hit a woman unless she was really trying to harm/fight me. Then again, the same goes for men.
I have hit women but it was in a supervised martial arts class where we all got hit by each other...in pursuit of skill.

 

[Yopaz]

I was being sarcastic? Silly DOTA joke aside, I was being perfectly honest but just really exaggerated. Sorry if I fit into whatever stereotype you're talking about and i've never seen anything too close to what I said on these forums before anyway. We were on the subject of hitting people so the thought naturally occurred to me that even if I did hit someone it would be hilariously bad. Pretty much undermining the entire point of the argument if you think about it.

No sorry, I made the mistake of posting on a serious thread. My sense of humour and how I must attempt to end a comment with a joke always gets misunderstood. It's on the border of a sexism topic too, how blind could I have been? Damn posting in the early hours...

Yeah, how dare you to make a joke in the topic that comes up once every 2 or 3 months treating it like it's not an important discussion that needs to be had with such a high frequency? Seriously though, I know how you feel.

OT: Use the search bar, you'll find plenty of these threads and several goes on for several pages about why you should or should not hit women or people in general.

Personally I'm more on the side of not hitting people at all, but that's me having been raised well. However as someone have already said women tend to be physically weaker, more likely to get hurt, you're more likely to get the blame as the aggressor, labelled as a misogynist, take your pick.

Personally I know that if I was going to take my rage out in physical ways things might just escalate. I am a pacifist, but if someone regardless of gender took a swing at me and I hit back then that could likely lead to the other person hitting again, which means I would get more pissed and I could end up hurting someone. I don't want that.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Women are smaller and weaker. Decades of trying to make men and women equals hasn't changed that fact. You don't hit women for the same reason you don't hit little kids, because the little kid can't actually hurt you but you can actually hurt him. Obviously it becomes a judgement call, if said "little kid" is six foot foor and three hundred pounds or said woman is Muhammed Ali's daughter you do what you have to do same as you would vs any man but the reason you don't hit women is because you're a lot more dangerous to them than vice versa.

Now being fair the smaller and weaker people in a civilized society have an obligation not to fuck with people who could break them without effort because the only reason they are walking around unbroken is because the bigger and stronger ALLOW it but once you start getting into that there is a lot of nuance to go into.

 

[RaikuFA]

The only way I will ever hit women is if they are full on attacking me. And that is just to subdue them.

 

[teamcharlie]

My rule on the matter: don't hit people unless you're likely to actually get hurt otherwise. Doesn't matter how many boobs or penises they have, it's not nice to hit anybody but I'd rather have people look at me funny than have broken bones. The best solution though, obviously, is not to get into a situation in which people are trying to kick your ass. Easier to avoid than movies might have you believe.

In terms of the movie: no, it wasn't justified for Leo to hit his wife. Wasn't justified for her to hit him either. They're both kinda dicks.

 

[norashepard]

In the context of the movie, the two hits he delivers (one slap, and one far more serious punch to the gut) aren't against someone who messed with Jordan. There against someone he had already been hurting and neglecting for years. If, during the earlier parts of the movie, while Jordan is still riding high, if Naomi had decided to jump out, he probably would have been more justified in hitting her (although he might want to try to talk first?). But yeah, considering he already put her under investigation, ruined her aunt's funeral, slept with hookers by the boatload, and just all around did not follow through on being a good husband already, the punches he threw were a terrifying smack to punctuate the punishment he had been dishing out the entire film. That's probably why so many people went "oh shit" at that point, and not at earlier points where women were hurt and degraded.

Outside the movie though, I think you're allowed to hit women if they're trying to kill you, but in most other cases, it is often far more helpful and successful to TALK IT OUT. Hitting, to me, seems like a cowards way out. Most women can't defend themselves if a man really does want to hurt them, so it just seems like something you'd only do if you didn't respect the person you were hitting in the first place.