Hotline Miami 2 Devs Remove "Rape Scene" From Demo

[dementis]

*Snip*

[HEADING=2]Murder and rape are not the same.[/HEADING]

*Snip*

I'm going to agree with Maiev Shadowsong here, Killing and Rape are two different kinds of evil but there is one important distinction you have to keep in mind with this discussion.

Sometimes Killing is justified, but Rape is NEVER justified.

Killing is the act of taking another human being's life away. There are situations where Killing is, regrettably, a justifiable course of action or the only course of action. For example, I don't think that anyone would argue that Killing isn't justified when a person is confronted by an angry mob intent on doing grievous bodily harm to a them or killing them or their loved ones. Likewise killing is justified when a lone psycho with a gun storms a workplace and takes innocent people hostage.

Let's contrast this with Rape which is the act of forcibly using someone else's body for the rapist's sick pleasure. It's never justified. There is never a situation where Rape is a justifiable course of action, and believe me the Japanese have been trying for DECADES to contrive one with no success. When you get down to it, all Rape is is using someone else's body so you can get off. There's never a higher cause and Rape can never serve any other purpose than the Rapists pleasure.

Surely the rape of a rapist would be justified, make the rapist experience the exact same feeling of weakness and vulnerability so they can have some understanding of what they did to their victim.

OT: I can see why an out of context scene would cause some trouble, but if they handle the story and context of the scene in the later game well then I can't see any issue. It would be nice to see more taboo subjects handled in modern media in an intelligent and mature manner.

 

[Olikar]

Males can 'handle' the effects of rape primarily because it will never be a major danger for them. The average adult male faces a very, very small small chance of actually being raped during their lifetime. Contrast this with women, who face a much, much greater chance of becoming a victim of rape - usually from somebody who is close to them, and whom they are meant to trust.

Given the stigma surrounding not only rape in general but particularly rape where the victim is male you cannot accurately say that women are more likely to be raped then men are.

The fact that rape is not a day-to-day concern for you is the basis of your privilege. You are privileged in that you don't have to deal with or think about something that another part of the populace must take into account in their daily lives (in this case, that part of the populace being women).

Complete and utter drivel, most women in the western world don't live with a day to day fear of being raped, (and if they do they are extremely paranoid) like you where saying with murder most think of it as something that'll never happen to them.

I am not going to bother addressing your points on privilege because the idea men have some sort of special privilege in western society is a myth only purported to degrade the viewpoints of men when discussing certain ideas E.g 'you don't understand because you're privileged! And even if a person was privileged bringing it up simply to dismiss their viewpoint when discussing or debating something is as massive betrayal of intellectual integrity.

 

[Olikar]

All the statistics we have indicate such is true. Until we have statistics indicating otherwise, we'll have to conclude that such is true.

Then you wont mind me ignoring your claim that one in four women suffer rape or other forms of sexual abuse since most of those statistics are made mainly up of an estimated number of unreported or unproven cases of rape (all we have to indicate for what is definitely true are proven rapes). Even then though your claim of one four is still a gross exaggeration regardless of whether or not you're taking unreported or unproven rapes into account.

And that doesn't even take into account sexual harassment (which is rampant) or domestic abuse and violence.

Which is irrelevant because you said rape was something that women face and fear on a daily basis, not sexual harassment nor domestic abuse.

The point of addressing privilege is to make people aware that other segments of the population have a vastly different perspective on things, because they have to deal with things that the privileged group does not.

No it goes without saying different social groups are going to have different viewpoints, the concept of privilege is entirely different. It is an analysis of these viewpoints in which it characterizes one viewpoint as privileged because it disagrees with a viewpoint which they characterize as oppressed and thus you have to respect the 'oppressed' social groups opinion on certain matters otherwise you are exerting your privilege.


I don't respect the viewpoint of anyone (regardless of their privilege or lack of privilege) who thinks art or comedy should censor itself on certain issues to avoid offending people, the privilege-brigade will attempt to characterize this as a lack of understanding (on account of my 'privilege') of what it's like to be the oppressed (the people being offended) and that my lack of respect is a symptom of privilege but in reality this is nothing more than a diversion from the actual issue at hand.

In fact, if you'd bothered to read my post, you'd note that the whole reason I brought up his privilege was to chastise him for dismissing other people - something that a person does when they are part of a privileged group but refuse to accept that other people are not.

I don't recall him dismissing other people at all based on privilege, but simply on the fact they where talking shite. (although his stupid comment about men being more mature was shite as well.)

 

[Warachia]

So why not just have a warning before the demo starts and leave it in?

Because it gives off the wrong message/impression about what's in the game/what the game is about, if it goes against what they want to bring across, then they would be smart to remove it.

"Warning: contains a brief scene of rape" wouldn't do it?

No, because if there's no consequences are context for it then it gives some people the impression that the game is condoning rape, and since they don't want to give that impression, they are changing it.

What are you trying to say? That some people will think it's an endorsement? Depiction isn't endorsement, and the people that think it is will probably be think they endorse assassins because of all the senseless murder, and they certainly won't remove that.

I never said that, please look up the definition of the word "condoning" if you aren't sure of what I'm saying next time: "Accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue."

 

[ACman]

Internet Hate Brigade: "WTFOMG TEH CENSORSHIPZ! STFU RAPE SURVIVORS, STOP DISCUSSING WHAT THINGS ARE LIKE FOR YOU"

Yeah Dickwolves suck. Fuck you Penny Arcade for creating such a fuckwit brand of fan.

 

[fiskefyren]

Why is rape worse then murder in this world?
Killing a hundred people? That's fine... rape someone? OMG YOU'RE A MONSTER!!!
Yes... Humans are retarded.

 

[Erttheking]

Wait! Come on guys this actually makes sense when you think about it. It just didn't make sense in context and did kinda come across for shock value. I don't really think it that way but I can see how people can see it and apparently the developers agree with them. They're not taking the rape scene out of the game where they insist it is important to the story between the characters, but just the demo where it just doesn't make much sense. It's not censorship, it's the developers listening to criticism and changing their work of their own free will in an attempt to make it better. Please just don't flip out over this, it doesn't warrant- *Looks at thread* GOD DAMN IT!

 

[Verrik]

Ha, you know any post like this is automatically going to end in a shit storm. I personally think that a demo should just give a glimpse of the best the game has to offer (like gameplay, story, graphics, stuff like that), and just leave the gore, sex stuff, etc; in the main game. But that's just me.

However, I find it funny how this thread and the thread about Yahtzee taking out that one line about transsexuals are rather similar.

You know, in the sense that half the forum is against Yahtzee changing that line to spare the feelings of the group he was talking about, and the other half absolutely happy that he did. I wonder how many of those people are taking the same stance here that they did in Yahtzee's thread.

 

[Something Amyss]

Not as bad as the feminists who complain endlessly whenever rape is mentioned within a joke or within a game.

Yeah, showing empathy towards victims is definitely a worse offense than showing antipathy towards them because you didn't get your way.

 

[Something Amyss]

There's that victim defense again. Oh they were victims so you have to be extra super nice to them forever. They were offended by a joke on what I think is ludicrous grounds and made ridiculous claims, so I'll mock them for it. Same if a scientologist got offended by South Park.

See, what I said was "empathy" and "antipathy." You had to misconstrue that as some ridiculous notion that you had to treat them as special snowflakes. "Don't be a dick" doesn't seem like it should be that hard a concept to work with, and I certainly don't see why you or anyone else should be as offended/hostile as they are towards it.

 

[Something Amyss]

Empathy does not mean censoring yourself whenever they find something objectionable.

But antipathy is raging against people when they do consider the feelings of those who find something objectionable.

How horrible to be this mildly inconvenienced.

 

[A Weakgeek]

I don't think video games are ready for the subject of Rape. There is just too much personal emotional nuance.

Judging from the "discussion" that is raised on every "issue" in videogames, I'm not sure games are ready for stories at all. Perhaps we should wait 30 years for everyone to mature a bit. We could revert back to ATARI 2600 type stories for now.

 

[Something Amyss]

I don't think I've raged at the Hotline Miami devs have I?

Who said you were raging at the devs? You've spent plenty of hate on "feminists" and people who show empathy towards fellow humans in the face of a mild inconvenience to you.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

I'm going to agree with Maiev Shadowsong here, Killing and Rape are two different kinds of evil but there is one important distinction you have to keep in mind with this discussion.

Sometimes Killing is justified, but Rape is NEVER justified.

Killing is the act of taking another human being's life away. There are situations where Killing is, regrettably, a justifiable course of action or the only course of action. For example, I don't think that anyone would argue that Killing isn't justified when a person is confronted by an angry mob intent on doing grievous bodily harm to a them or killing them or their loved ones. Likewise killing is justified when a lone psycho with a gun storms a workplace and takes innocent people hostage.

Let's contrast this with Rape which is the act of forcibly using someone else's body for the rapist's sick pleasure. It's never justified. There is never a situation where Rape is a justifiable course of action, and believe me the Japanese have been trying for DECADES to contrive one with no success. When you get down to it, all Rape is is using someone else's body so you can get off. There's never a higher cause and Rape can never serve any other purpose than the Rapists pleasure.

There is never a reason for torture either, it's just someone forcing pain (or grievous harm) on someone else's body for their sick pleasure. But that hasn't stopped it being a pretty common part of movies...in some cases entire franchises being based around brutal torture.

I think rape is a special case because the majority of convicted rapists are males with female victims.

Really? Rape is only seen as a big deal because it's a "mostly women's issue"?

The U.S. Military would disagree.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/20/victims-of-sex-assaults-in-military-are-mostly-sil/?page=all

In 2012, 26,000 rapes. 12,000 women, and 14,000 men.

Rape is an issue for everyone. Men and women. It doesn't matter who gets raped more. Anyone who thinks otherwise, isn't connected to reality.

As for them keeping it in the game? It's there choice in the end. If they really think they need it, they'll keep it.

 

[Hazy]

If emotionally vulnerable people were really that vulnerable, they wouldn't be playing a game where you stave someone's head in with a nine iron.

[small]"A-At least I can die knowing this wasn't rape!"[/small]​

 

[Something Amyss]

You mean the ones that were complaining about the comic?

Which, of course, isthe only topic related to the matter you've addressed. Ever.

Come now.

 

[Robert Marrs]

It would be a real shame to see this taken out of the game just on principle. Killing people extremely violently is ok but a rape scene twice removed from reality (in a video game that turns out to be a movie in a video game) is a big deal? Sorry but if you dont like it too bad. Don't play the game. Trying to censor this is no different then the yahoo's that try to ban violent video games. Don't be a hypocrite just because now there is something you dont like in a game. Honestly if they do take it out I may not even buy the game.

 

[carnex]

Here we go again... I havent read whole thread, read some of the firs page and some of the last. Too much time needed for me

1) I can imagine quite a few things more traumatic than rape. I have seen consequences of non-rape actions. Shell-shocked baby that, for years, hided under the table on every loud sound, woman beaten up and left in the snow unable to move, paralyzed at age of 34, quicklime poured down the throar, quicklime thrown into eyes... compared to these rape doesn't look quite up for the title of worst. Add to that huge numbers of civilians loosing body parts to accidents or long forgotten war remains. Like getting your leg is blown off or your arm shredded in cogs of machine. Those are quite more traumatic I would say.
Plus when you ark person would they rather be raped or killed, i suspect rape would be preferred option in most cases

2) 4 in 1 rape rate was tracked down to a book written in sixties by prominent member of then "female liberation" movement. Book never referenced any source and prior citation was never found. That really stinks of BS, especially when researches, adjusted by factor of 10 to allow for 1 in 10 report rate suggest less than 1% of females sexually violated in their life time.

But all that doesn?t make rape any less of deplorable crime that robs person of basic feeling of control of one?s life and can lead to many psychological complications.

Never the less, it is my firm belief that censorship is not an option. Author must be free to fulfill his vision, unchanged and untouched. It is artist?s duty to ignore any taboos and social ?wisdoms? whenever they stand in the way of his narration.

This is only medium where this discussion is seen which proves that people don?t think about games as something that has potential to be work of art, nor that game designers are artists. If they did we wouldn?t have this discussions. And I see that as sad. Games are unique medium that incorporates all others but adds another layer over it, interactivity, which dwarfs all other aspects. Games like Papers Please, Spec Ops: The Line and Planescape Torment explore themes other mediums explored but could never affect us like interactive medium can. This medium has potential like nothing before it, and with new technologies like truly encompassing VR (oculus rift) and AR (rumored next gen Google glasses with lens projection) possibilities simply go far beyond my capability to imagine.

And yet we would castrate medium in it?s infancy. Weren?t all previous controversial mediums enough to learn anything? This medium already does more to protect it?s audience with content warnings on packaging. Should not that be enough or was that enough to discredit games as artistic medium?

We should relize that there are games that conform to general demands, and games that tell story author created without caring for taboos. There there are games for fun and games for meaning. Like movies, music, books and any other medium, not all products are for everyone.

 

[Something Amyss]

If emotionally vulnerable people were really that vulnerable, they wouldn't be playing a game where you stave someone's head in with a nine iron.

[small]"A-At least I can die knowing this wasn't rape!"[/small]​

Thankfully, everyone who is set off by one thing is set off by everything else, so this is a fair and accurate statement.

 

[Robert Marrs]

Here we go again... I havent read whole thread, read some of the firs page and some of the last. Too much time needed for me

1) I can imagine quite a few things more traumatic than rape. I have seen consequences of non-rape actions. Shell-shocked baby that, for years, hided under the table on every loud sound, woman beaten up and left in the snow unable to move, paralyzed at age of 34, quicklime poured down the throar, quicklime thrown into eyes... compared to these rape doesn't look quite up for the title of worst. Add to that huge numbers of civilians loosing body parts to accidents or long forgotten war remains. Like getting your leg is blown off or your arm shredded in cogs of machine. Those are quite more traumatic I would say.
Plus when you ark person would they rather be raped or killed, i suspect rape would be preferred option in most cases

2) 4 in 1 rape rate was tracked down to a book written in sixties by prominent member of then "female liberation" movement. Book never referenced any source and prior citation was never found. That really stinks of BS, especially when researches, adjusted by factor of 10 to allow for 1 in 10 report rate suggest less than 1% of females sexually violated in their life time.

But all that doesn?t make rape deplorable crime that robs person of basic feeling of control of one?s life and can lead to many psychological complications.

Never the less, it is my firm belief that censorship is not an option. Author must be free to fulfill his vision, unchanged and untouched. It is artist?s duty to ignore any taboos and social ?wisdoms? whenever they stand in the way of his narration.

This is only medium where this discussion is seen which proves that people don?t think about games as something that has potential to be work of art, nor that game designers are artists. If they did we wouldn?t have this discussions. And I see that as sad. Games are unique medium that incorporates all others but adds another layer over it, interactivity, which dwarfs all other aspects. Games like Papers Please, Spec Ops: The Line and Planescape Torment explore themes other mediums explored but could never affect us like interactive medium can. This medium has potential like nothing before it, and with new technologies like truly encompassing VR (oculus rift) and AR (rumored next gen Google glasses with lens projection) possibilities simply go far beyond my capability to imagine.

And yet we would castrate medium in it?s infancy. Weren?t all previous controversial mediums enough to learn anything? This medium already does more to protect it?s audience with content warnings on packaging. Should not that be enough or was that enough to discredit games as artistic medium?

Could not have said it better myself. Also thank you for bringing up the 1 in 4 thing. I get so tired of seeing that statistic thrown around with zero evidence to back it up and anyone who questions it is usually just dismissed with claims of misogyny.