How to Talk About Games #2

[Phrozenflame500]

Oh God, you said Gordon Freeman may not have been a good character.

http://s17.postimg.org/3lqhbffrz/sailor_says_there_be_a_shit_storm_brewing.jpg

 

[TiberiusEsuriens]

Thank you. I'm so sick of saying "I'm tired of silent protagonists" only to be met with "What about Gordon Freeman, HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE GORDON FREEMAN?"

Freeman was never what made Half-life good, it was everything happening around Freeman that was. It's just odd that Half-life 2 is so character driven despite the fact the protagonist never talks. Still not as bad as it gets in Dishonored (which again I like, but COME ON CORVO SAY SOMETHING). Also I guess I am REALLY FOND OF CAPS TODAY. So SUE ME.

Giving a protagonist a personality shouldn't be thought of as creating a barrier between player and character. Sure you could pick a personality that a given player doesn't like, but having them stay silent, especially when it makes no sense in the game's context, creates more problems.

I totally agree. Every time a game is lauded for it's great story or character, typically either isn't actually fleshed out. Not saying they're bad, but what makes all those games so great is the detailed environments. It's everything BUT the protagonist or antagonist.

 

[Azahul]

Ahh but acknowledging faults is a sign of weakness. Haven't you heard, Grey? If you give even a tiny bit of ground, its blood in the water! You'll be forced that much further from your point. Jeez Grey, you need to learn more from Fox News.

edit: but I will say Master Chief has the most character out of those three. Lul.

Well, that's only because he isn't strictly silent (like Freeman) and what he does say aren't variations on his name and YAHOOOOO (like Mario). And, I'd argue that Halo 4 made him a much more interesting character. However, he still isn't anywhere near a list topper.

After reading the books, it's actually rather hard to reconcile yourself to the idea that some people think that Master Chief doesn't have a character. Of course, until Halo 4 they never really tried to bring that across in the games, which was a mighty shame. Even in Halo 4, which starts to investigate a bit about the Master Chief's personality, doesn't really capture the best of the exploration of the character as found in the books. Most them revolve around his interactions with the other Spartans and how he copes without them, mind you. The closest the games ever get to the books on that level is the opening cutscene of Halo 4 bringing up the possibility that all Spartans are sociopaths/"at their core, broken".

 

[Thaluikhain]

Heh, good point, well made.

Oh God, you said Gordon Freeman may not have been a good character.

Oops, your image didn't quite work.

 

[Ishal]

Ahh but acknowledging faults is a sign of weakness. Haven't you heard, Grey? If you give even a tiny bit of ground, its blood in the water! You'll be forced that much further from your point. Jeez Grey, you need to learn more from Fox News.

edit: but I will say Master Chief has the most character out of those three. Lul.

Well, that's only because he isn't strictly silent (like Freeman) and what he does say aren't variations on his name and YAHOOOOO (like Mario). And, I'd argue that Halo 4 made him a much more interesting character. However, he still isn't anywhere near a list topper.

After reading the books, it's actually rather hard to reconcile yourself to the idea that some people think that Master Chief doesn't have a character. Of course, until Halo 4 they never really tried to bring that across in the games, which was a mighty shame. Even in Halo 4, which starts to investigate a bit about the Master Chief's personality, doesn't really capture the best of the exploration of the character as found in the books. Most them revolve around his interactions with the other Spartans and how he copes without them, mind you. The closest the games ever get to the books on that level is the opening cutscene of Halo 4 bringing up the possibility that all Spartans are sociopaths/"at their core, broken".

Well 90% of people who you'll find saying the things Grey is talking about usually haven't read the books. Fall of Reach gave him the most character, and when compared to the other two he is leagues ahead of them in terms of "being a character."

But he is still no Nathan Drake or other more realized hero. Chief is a vehicle through which you experience the rest of the Halo universe, Bungie even stated as much. He just happens to have a bit of character in him in the games, and even more in the books.

 

[sethisjimmy]

Bit of a cheap shot to bit-era music there. Chiptune music isn't terrible at all. It had limitations, but sometimes limitations are what makes art so great. Bit-era composers couldn't focus on sound quality or variation so they were forced to come up with unique and creative chord progression and accompaniment. The minimalism is in fact what makes them great. I think many chiptune soundtracks still completely stand up today, and that's not gaming nostalgia talking; I often enjoy listening to bit-era songs from games I've never even played.

I think what's actually happening is that you're projecting: You think because a type of music is old, it's inherently bad, which just isn't true.

Also before anyone kills me, I get that it was an offhand comment probably not meant to be taken seriously, but it just irked me.

 

[Robot-Jesus]

Thank god you said something about silent protagonists. I can't believe people become fans of those walking shells.

Because they got to write their own character and the game never did anything to break that illusion. really the great thing about Gordon Freeman is how people react to him and fill in details on the setting without ever taking you out of the character you've been building in your head.

As for Mario he's full of characterization. it's not exactly deep, but he's way more developed then may early silent cartoons. No one would accuse Tom or Jerry of being non characters, but we know way more about Mario's personality then either of those one dimensional characters.


I can't really comment on Master Chief, he seems about as interesting at the Doom Marine to me.

After reading the books, it's actually rather hard to reconcile yourself to the idea that some people think that Master Chief doesn't have a character. Of course, until Halo 4 they never really tried to bring that across in the games, which was a mighty shame. Even in Halo 4, which starts to investigate a bit about the Master Chief's personality, doesn't really capture the best of the exploration of the character as found in the books. Most them revolve around his interactions with the other Spartans and how he copes without them, mind you. The closest the games ever get to the books on that level is the opening cutscene of Halo 4 bringing up the possibility that all Spartans are sociopaths/"at their core, broken".

If you have to read the books to understand how a character, then the game has poor characterization of that character.

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

I don't get the rip on 16 bit soundtracks. There are some 8 bit soundtracks that sound great considering the limitations.

Batman


Double Dragon


Castlevania, etc etc etc.

 

[major_chaos]

16 bit anything is bad. Period.

Yea no. You are just wrong. You personally may care too much about graphics to enjoy 16 bit classics, but that doesn't make them bad.

OT: All good points except for the jab at 16 bit music that I can only assume was a joke (or, this being Grey, good old fashioned trolling). Also which Resident Evil game had you shooting lizardmen while riding on the back of a giant spider? Because I need to play that now.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

I'll have the Jill Valentine Sandwich please, sans bread. I'm on a low carb diet.

 

[PhiMed]

Ahh but acknowledging faults is a sign of weakness. Haven't you heard, Grey? If you give even a tiny bit of ground, its blood in the water! You'll be forced that much further from your point. Jeez Grey, you need to learn more from Fox News.

edit: but I will say Master Chief has the most character out of those three. Lul.

Well, that's only because he isn't strictly silent (like Freeman) and what he does say aren't variations on his name and YAHOOOOO (like Mario). And, I'd argue that Halo 4 made him a much more interesting character. However, he still isn't anywhere near a list topper.

After reading the books, it's actually rather hard to reconcile yourself to the idea that some people think that Master Chief doesn't have a character. Of course, until Halo 4 they never really tried to bring that across in the games, which was a mighty shame. Even in Halo 4, which starts to investigate a bit about the Master Chief's personality, doesn't really capture the best of the exploration of the character as found in the books. Most them revolve around his interactions with the other Spartans and how he copes without them, mind you. The closest the games ever get to the books on that level is the opening cutscene of Halo 4 bringing up the possibility that all Spartans are sociopaths/"at their core, broken".

Well 90% of people who you'll find saying the things Grey is talking about usually haven't read the books. Fall of Reach gave him the most character, and when compared to the other two he is leagues ahead of them in terms of "being a character."

But he is still no Nathan Drake or other more realized hero. Chief is a vehicle through which you experience the rest of the Halo universe, Bungie even stated as much. He just happens to have a bit of character in him in the games, and even more in the books.

Characterization that occurred in another work doesn't count when you're talking about characterization within that work. Especially when you're talking about work that occurred in a completely different medium. We don't give movie adaptations a pass when characters fall flat in translation, and those are the same stories. Why would we give a video game a pass, and say, "Oh, I know his character is shitty in this work (which is the exposure 99.9% of consumers get), but he's actually an awesome character because of this completely separate work that is pretty much the definition of niche. You have to consume both of them in order to get it." The master chief that exists in the game is poorly characterized. The books don't make up for that.

I mean, we frequently overlook this:
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2006/332/564210_20061128_790screen001.jpg
when we're talking about the quality of the Zelda's character, and that's in the same medium. Because the works are to be consumed separately, independently. Why would the books have any bearing on the perception of Master Chief as a video game character?

 

[PhiMed]

I don't get the rip on 16 bit soundtracks. There are some 8 bit soundtracks that sound great considering the limitations.

Batman


Double Dragon


Castlevania, etc etc etc.

Everything you named is 8-bit, not 16.

 

[Ishal]

Ahh but acknowledging faults is a sign of weakness. Haven't you heard, Grey? If you give even a tiny bit of ground, its blood in the water! You'll be forced that much further from your point. Jeez Grey, you need to learn more from Fox News.

edit: but I will say Master Chief has the most character out of those three. Lul.

Well, that's only because he isn't strictly silent (like Freeman) and what he does say aren't variations on his name and YAHOOOOO (like Mario). And, I'd argue that Halo 4 made him a much more interesting character. However, he still isn't anywhere near a list topper.

After reading the books, it's actually rather hard to reconcile yourself to the idea that some people think that Master Chief doesn't have a character. Of course, until Halo 4 they never really tried to bring that across in the games, which was a mighty shame. Even in Halo 4, which starts to investigate a bit about the Master Chief's personality, doesn't really capture the best of the exploration of the character as found in the books. Most them revolve around his interactions with the other Spartans and how he copes without them, mind you. The closest the games ever get to the books on that level is the opening cutscene of Halo 4 bringing up the possibility that all Spartans are sociopaths/"at their core, broken".

Well 90% of people who you'll find saying the things Grey is talking about usually haven't read the books. Fall of Reach gave him the most character, and when compared to the other two he is leagues ahead of them in terms of "being a character."

But he is still no Nathan Drake or other more realized hero. Chief is a vehicle through which you experience the rest of the Halo universe, Bungie even stated as much. He just happens to have a bit of character in him in the games, and even more in the books.

Characterization that occurred in another work doesn't count when you're talking about characterization within that work. Especially when you're talking about work that occurred in a completely different medium. We don't give movie adaptations a pass when characters fall flat in translation, and those are the same stories. Why would we give a video game a pass, and say, "Oh, I know his character is shitty in this work (which is the exposure 99.9% of consumers get), but he's actually an awesome character because of this completely separate work that is pretty much the definition of niche. You have to consume both of them in order to get it." The master chief that exists in the game is poorly characterized. The books don't make up for that.

I mean, we frequently overlook this:
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2006/332/564210_20061128_790screen001.jpg
when we're talking about the quality of the Zelda's character, and that's in the same medium. Because the works are to be consumed separately, independently. Why would the books have any bearing on the perception of Master Chief as a video game character?

Not sure who this is for.. since I agree with everything you said. Literally all of it.

My statement was simply that most people criticizing the chief don't know he is expanded upon further in the books. Strictly in terms of the games, there isn't much there as far as his characterization goes, and that was intended. If people want to judge him based solely on the games, they should do so. I think its perfectly fine to judge games in a vacuum, so to speak.

But in terms of the Halo universe, there is more to him than in just the games.

 

[PunkRex]

Whats Dynasty Warriors about again... setting boats on fire? Who cares, KILL THE DUDES!

 

[Deathfish15]

I appreciated the old comics of Erin's decent into madness caused by the brain injury she obtained from the car accident from her coworker. THOSE need to return. The ones where she talks to imaginary video game characters.

These current comics based on cynicism and criticism of random news pieces related to video games as of late,...they suck. They're too drawn out, there's far too much text contained within. If it requires one or two paragraphs to explain the point of a comic, then the comic is probably not that good.


Edit: This one comic wouldn't have been too shabby had it just been the 3-panel strip about Resident Evil. Leaving that strip alone with a title of "Quality Projected", and then the rest of the paragraphs of opinion below the comic as was before. That would have worked just fine.

 

[Madmanonfire]

Everything you named is 8-bit, not 16.

Did you even read what he said above his examples? "There are some 8 bit soundtracks that sound great considering the limitations." He meant to choose 8-bit soundtracks.

 

[Izzyisme]

Nailed it. If I have to listen to one more person complain about how the Resident Evil movie plots are nothing like the games and are thus awful, I will punch somebody. Does anybody actually remember the plot to Resident Evil 4? Saving the President's daughter, crappy one-liners, throwing a knife at an evil zombie dwarf, etc.

 

[T3hSource]

'shitty 16-bit music'

defender's storm commences

Oh Grey, that was perfect :3

 

[Something Amyss]

Thank you. I'm so sick of saying "I'm tired of silent protagonists" only to be met with "What about Gordon Freeman, HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE GORDON FREEMAN?"

Freeman was never what made Half-life good, it was everything happening around Freeman that was.

To be fair, without Gordon Freeman to imprint on, a lot of people simply wouldn't have cared.

And just what IS wrong with catchy chip tunes? Their simplicity is what makes them special and stick with you after you have played even if they are not as complex as the orchestral tracks of today

Do you listen to a lot of player piano music?

I'm betting you wouldn't give it the time of day. That's okay, though, it just means you're the average gamer.

It's weird that people will bash others for imprinting on a player avatar but defend chiptune music, since about the only reason most people listen to such music is a similar form of association. Kind of the point in the first place. It's weird that people will identify the one process and cheer it then jeer it in another instance.

It's not just chiptunes, either.

I'm actually of the mind that the Street Fighter narrative could be hammered into something that's not only functional but interesting if it focused on Ryu and his relationships with Ken and Akuma. I haven't read all of them, but the Alpha manga set up the "Evil Ryu" scenario nicely.

A couple of the anime flicks have been decent. But then, almost any gaming narrative could be made into something good if you put enough work in. The original Super Mario Brothers could totally be made into a working story.

And Gordon Freeman could be made into a viable, fully-fleshed out character.

That was a very divisive comic strip, methinks. Something in there for everyone to take exception to! Bravo.

I just want to point out that I don't think I took exception to anything. Then again, this reads like a laundry list of issues I have with gaming/gamers/gamer response. Critical Miss and the Jimquisition border on my own personal Fox News Bubble.

After reading the books, it's actually rather hard to reconcile yourself to the idea that some people think that Master Chief doesn't have a character. Of course, until Halo 4 they never really tried to bring that across in the games, which was a mighty shame.

It's also exactly why it's so EASY to reconcile yourself to the idea that some people think that Master Chief doesn't have a character: it's all shunted off into optional media. It's almost completely irrelevant to the game as it has been treated.

I don't get the rip on 16 bit soundtracks. There are some 8 bit soundtracks that sound great considering the limitations.

considering the limitations.

considering the limitations.

You answered your own question. "Good within the allotted restrictions" doesn't mean "good overall."

And that Batman track was just awful.

 

[Something Amyss]

Whats Dynasty Warriors about again... setting boats on fire? Who cares, KILL THE DUDES!

Well, if you read the source material, it's actually a quite deep reflection of an historical era of turmoil....

...Yeah, sounds bad when someone does it. I don't know why they do.

I appreciated the old comics of Erin's decent into madness caused by the brain injury she obtained from the car accident from her coworker. THOSE need to return. The ones where she talks to imaginary video game characters.

These current comics based on cynicism and criticism of random news pieces related to video games as of late,...they suck. They're too drawn out, there's far too much text contained within. If it requires one or two paragraphs to explain the point of a comic, then the comic is probably not that good.


Edit: This one comic wouldn't have been too shabby had it just been the 3-panel strip about Resident Evil. Leaving that strip alone with a title of "Quality Projected", and then the rest of the paragraphs of opinion below the comic as was before. That would have worked just fine.

Of course, when they did those comics, people were complaining about them and wanted more topical humour.

It's like they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.