How to Talk About Games #2

[Izzyisme]

Nailed it. If I have to listen to one more person complain about how the Resident Evil movie plots are nothing like the games and are thus awful, I will punch somebody. Does anybody actually remember the plot to Resident Evil 4? Saving the President's daughter, crappy one-liners, throwing a knife at an evil zombie dwarf, etc.

 

[T3hSource]

'shitty 16-bit music'

defender's storm commences

Oh Grey, that was perfect :3

 

[Something Amyss]

Thank you. I'm so sick of saying "I'm tired of silent protagonists" only to be met with "What about Gordon Freeman, HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE GORDON FREEMAN?"

Freeman was never what made Half-life good, it was everything happening around Freeman that was.

To be fair, without Gordon Freeman to imprint on, a lot of people simply wouldn't have cared.

And just what IS wrong with catchy chip tunes? Their simplicity is what makes them special and stick with you after you have played even if they are not as complex as the orchestral tracks of today

Do you listen to a lot of player piano music?

I'm betting you wouldn't give it the time of day. That's okay, though, it just means you're the average gamer.

It's weird that people will bash others for imprinting on a player avatar but defend chiptune music, since about the only reason most people listen to such music is a similar form of association. Kind of the point in the first place. It's weird that people will identify the one process and cheer it then jeer it in another instance.

It's not just chiptunes, either.

I'm actually of the mind that the Street Fighter narrative could be hammered into something that's not only functional but interesting if it focused on Ryu and his relationships with Ken and Akuma. I haven't read all of them, but the Alpha manga set up the "Evil Ryu" scenario nicely.

A couple of the anime flicks have been decent. But then, almost any gaming narrative could be made into something good if you put enough work in. The original Super Mario Brothers could totally be made into a working story.

And Gordon Freeman could be made into a viable, fully-fleshed out character.

That was a very divisive comic strip, methinks. Something in there for everyone to take exception to! Bravo.

I just want to point out that I don't think I took exception to anything. Then again, this reads like a laundry list of issues I have with gaming/gamers/gamer response. Critical Miss and the Jimquisition border on my own personal Fox News Bubble.

After reading the books, it's actually rather hard to reconcile yourself to the idea that some people think that Master Chief doesn't have a character. Of course, until Halo 4 they never really tried to bring that across in the games, which was a mighty shame.

It's also exactly why it's so EASY to reconcile yourself to the idea that some people think that Master Chief doesn't have a character: it's all shunted off into optional media. It's almost completely irrelevant to the game as it has been treated.

I don't get the rip on 16 bit soundtracks. There are some 8 bit soundtracks that sound great considering the limitations.

considering the limitations.

considering the limitations.

You answered your own question. "Good within the allotted restrictions" doesn't mean "good overall."

And that Batman track was just awful.

 

[Something Amyss]

Whats Dynasty Warriors about again... setting boats on fire? Who cares, KILL THE DUDES!

Well, if you read the source material, it's actually a quite deep reflection of an historical era of turmoil....

...Yeah, sounds bad when someone does it. I don't know why they do.

I appreciated the old comics of Erin's decent into madness caused by the brain injury she obtained from the car accident from her coworker. THOSE need to return. The ones where she talks to imaginary video game characters.

These current comics based on cynicism and criticism of random news pieces related to video games as of late,...they suck. They're too drawn out, there's far too much text contained within. If it requires one or two paragraphs to explain the point of a comic, then the comic is probably not that good.


Edit: This one comic wouldn't have been too shabby had it just been the 3-panel strip about Resident Evil. Leaving that strip alone with a title of "Quality Projected", and then the rest of the paragraphs of opinion below the comic as was before. That would have worked just fine.

Of course, when they did those comics, people were complaining about them and wanted more topical humour.

It's like they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 

[scorptatious]

For the most part I agree with this.

Of course, there are some good 16-bit soundtracks, just like there are some good instrumental or orchestral tracks. Each one has something about them that makes them great in some way.

 

[1337mokro]

Yes because 16 bit soundtracks, like the ones from Chronotrigger, Final Fantasy 3 and 6, Donkey Kong Country, Actraiser, Secret of Mana, Super Mario World, TLOZ Link to the past, Illusion of Gaia, Terranigma and so on all sound like shit.

The comic is on the nose about projection. However I do disagree with people thinking silent protagonists are the best characters ever. Who are these characters but us? So in a sense people are saying that they themselves, the quirks they give to the character are what makes these characters the best. After all they have no character, so you have to act for them. It's in a sense an RPG with set dialogue.

 

[Erttheking]

No Grey! I like a game, therefor there is nothing wrong with it! Admitting that anything is wrong with my game in any shape or form will open the flood gates for...things...because...reasons.

 

[Griffolion]

The silent protagonist thing is kind of funny. Because they always top the charts for best character, and yet their primary motive is to allow the player a relatively blank canvas on which to project their own personality, you can argue the reason for them topping these charts is out of sheer vanity.

"Yeah, Freeman is number one because when my personality was projected onto him, he was just THE BEST! "

I semi-agree with the chip tune thing. The reason why I like chip tunes, especially the original ones, was because the composers had so little in instrumentation to work with, they had to create a really strong melody to compensate. Hence why so many of the original chip tune game songs are so brilliant and catchy (and Anamanaguchi did a really good job in Scott Pilgrim, most recently). However, arrange the same track with an orchestra or a band of some sort, and they are almost always better. Sticking on the Scott Pilgrim thing, FamilyJulez7X's covers of the Scott Pilgrim songs on his YouTube channel are so epic because he instrumented them with a full panoply of rock instruments. That's just my opinion.

Still, it's kind of sad we're having to have a series of strips by the CM team to discuss something as basic as talking about games. You'd think we'd have had the basics down, by now. Hopefully we can get back to Erin ASAP.

 

[-Dragmire-]

"Horrible 16 bit soundtracks"? You and I need to have a little chat outside Carter.

He's right, though. The soundtracks are way better played on different instruments. See: Video Games Live, Smooth Mcgroove.

EDIT: Not only did I use an unexplained acronym, I used the wrong one. D:

Still, there are exceptions. I've yet to hear a version of The Moon from DuckTales that's better than the original. It losses something with the added complexity.

Jazzy big band covers of Mario songs never really appealed to me either for some reason, probably just personal preference.

 

[Mahoshonen]

I'm actually of the mind that the Street Fighter narrative could be hammered into something that's not only functional but interesting if it focused on Ryu and his relationships with Ken and Akuma. I haven't read all of them, but the Alpha manga set up the "Evil Ryu" scenario nicely.

Street Fighter already has a great story.

It stars Jean Claude Van Damm and Raul Julia.

 

[-Dragmire-]

Yes because 16 bit soundtracks, like the ones from Chronotrigger, Final Fantasy 3 and 6, Donkey Kong Country, Actraiser, Secret of Mana, Super Mario World, TLOZ Link to the past, Illusion of Gaia, Terranigma and so on all sound like shit.

I may be wrong but I believe that he wasn't talking about the composition of the songs, but that the limited sound/pitch range of 16 bit music does not compare well to the same songs played on instruments. Zelda music that's played by a string orchestra is AMAZING, it's not much of a comparison to the sound of a limited machine trying to imitate the sounds of real instruments.

As I said above though, I believe there are exceptions to this.

 

[Jordi]

Thank you. I'm so sick of saying "I'm tired of silent protagonists" only to be met with "What about Gordon Freeman, HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE GORDON FREEMAN?"

Freeman was never what made Half-life good, it was everything happening around Freeman that was. It's just odd that Half-life 2 is so character driven despite the fact the protagonist never talks. Still not as bad as it gets in Dishonored (which again I like, but COME ON CORVO SAY SOMETHING). Also I guess I am REALLY FOND OF CAPS TODAY. So SUE ME.

Giving a protagonist a personality shouldn't be thought of as creating a barrier between player and character. Sure you could pick a personality that a given player doesn't like, but having them stay silent, especially when it makes no sense in the game's context, creates more problems.

I totally agree. Every time a game is lauded for it's great story or character, typically either isn't actually fleshed out. Not saying they're bad, but what makes all those games so great is the detailed environments. It's everything BUT the protagonist or antagonist.

I don't think this is necessarily as paradoxal as you make it out to be. The stories and characters in a video game (or how they are experienced) are sort of a collaboration between the developer and the player. If the developer provides a very light story / character, there is more room for the player to come up with their own epic tale experienced by their deep and complex hero. In that case, people might praise a developer's story that may appear fairly weak in isolation, because that "weakness" resulted in an overall great story.

I think the player's part of the story / characterization has the potential to be much more significant, because it's more personal and custom-tailored to the player. So it's no wonder that some people would laud these stories / characters as "the best". However, this also requires a certain imagination / mindset / playstyle on the part of the player, so it makes sense that this would be a divisive issue.

I do agree that in order for this to happen, you need more than light developer story / character. Great, detailed environments and/or extensive characterization options should facilitate player story telling.

 

[Darth_Payn]

Thank you. I'm so sick of saying "I'm tired of silent protagonists" only to be met with "What about Gordon Freeman, HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE GORDON FREEMAN?"

Freeman was never what made Half-life good, it was everything happening around Freeman that was. It's just odd that Half-life 2 is so character driven despite the fact the protagonist never talks. Still not as bad as it gets in Dishonored (which again I like, but COME ON CORVO SAY SOMETHING). Also I guess I am REALLY FOND OF CAPS TODAY. So SUE ME.

Giving a protagonist a personality shouldn't be thought of as creating a barrier between player and character. Sure you could pick a personality that a given player doesn't like, but having them stay silent, especially when it makes no sense in the game's context, creates more problems.

YES! Thank you! I never understood the in-game logic of not having the main character say a peep when he has these relationships with so many other people IN the game's world. If Dishonored's Corvo said something like "Guy's, I didn't do it!" after the Empress's murder, things may have gone so much simpler.

 

[major_chaos]

'shitty 16-bit music'

defender's storm commences

Oh Grey, that was perfect :3

I think this site needs a new tagline. I was thinking something along the lines of
"The Escapist: No trolling, unless you are on the staff."

 

[Vivi22]

"Horrible 16 bit soundtracks"? You and I need to have a little chat outside Carter.

He's right, though. The soundtracks are way better played on different instruments. See: Video Games Live, Smooth Mcgroove.

While the quality in terms of the technology used wasn't the highest, the fact that the compositions themselves stand up so well played on so many different instruments is a testament to how strong those compositions are. And honestly, I think a lot of people get too hung up on wanting everything to be played by a real orchestra or whatever else they can think of. Did FFVI or Chrono Trigger sound like they were played on real instruments? Not at all. Did the synthesized instruments and effects still sound pretty good, and were they arranged and mixed in a way that sounds good? Absolutely.

To be honest though, I'm also just plain more impressed by the level of skill it took to get soundtracks like those to sound good on a SNES than I am impressed by a soundtrack being played by a full orchestra in a multi-million dollar studio with the recording gear to match. So what if a 16-bit soundtrack will never sound the same as real instruments? It doesn't mean it was bad.

 

[TiberiusEsuriens]

SNIP

SNIP

I don't think this is necessarily as paradoxal as you make it out to be. The stories and characters in a video game (or how they are experienced) are sort of a collaboration between the developer and the player. If the developer provides a very light story / character, there is more room for the player to come up with their own epic tale experienced by their deep and complex hero. In that case, people might praise a developer's story that may appear fairly weak in isolation, because that "weakness" resulted in an overall great story.

I think the player's part of the story / characterization has the potential to be much more significant, because it's more personal and custom-tailored to the player. So it's no wonder that some people would laud these stories / characters as "the best". However, this also requires a certain imagination / mindset / playstyle on the part of the player, so it makes sense that this would be a divisive issue.

I do agree that in order for this to happen, you need more than light developer story / character. Great, detailed environments and/or extensive characterization options should facilitate player story telling.

You hit the nail on the head at the end there. I guess the point I originally meant to make is that everyone confuse the story they completely made up or inferred in their heads with the hard data presented in the games. The stuff people love about the game is that it gives us so little information that we have an excuse to use our imagination.

Half Life 1 has great game play and a well realized science facility (even by today's game standards) but by playing it you would NEVER understand that the story revolves around "Nihilanth, the controlling intelligence behind the vortigaunt invasion of Earth" (wikipedia) who is a single telepathic overlord enslaving an untold large population of lazershooting cyclops. And then there's the G-Man, a fan favorite whom the devs throw at the player seemingly just to confuse them. 15 years later and still no one has a clue who or what he is and what he's doing.

The devs make engaging play, really cool environments, pretty neat bad guys, and in HL2 a much healthier amount of context, but strong story is not something I'd put on the list. That's something we made up and just attributed to them.

I'd love to discuss more but I have to get back to work before my boss notices ^.^
Fan boys, while I'm gone feel free to scream at me into oblivion (or you can have an actual discussion about merits of implied story, but that's much less satisfying).

 

[talideon]

The Plok soundtrack:


1/3 of your arguments are thus invalidated.

 

[Rad Party God]

Uh... no... no, no, no, no.


You lost me on the 16 bit soundtracks.

CAPTCHA: Learn from mistakes. DAMN right!

 

[Darth_Payn]

I'll have the Jill Valentine Sandwich please, sans bread. I'm on a low carb diet.

Um, giggedy?

Ahh but acknowledging faults is a sign of weakness. Haven't you heard, Grey? If you give even a tiny bit of ground, its blood in the water! You'll be forced that much further from your point. Jeez Grey, you need to learn more from Fox News.

edit: but I will say Master Chief has the most character out of those three. Lul.

Well, that's only because he isn't strictly silent (like Freeman) and what he does say aren't variations on his name and YAHOOOOO (like Mario). And, I'd argue that Halo 4 made him a much more interesting character. However, he still isn't anywhere near a list topper.

Master Chief and Mario are NOT Silent Protagonists. Chief, a.k.a. John-117, talks, just not very much, and it sounds more like grumbling. The in-game characterization comes from what they do while you control them, how you do it, and why (their motivation). I think the great thing about Gordon is I can ad-lib my own dialogue for him when other characters talk to him, and it will still fit!
But that crack about 16-bit game music? Low blow. Dem's fightin' woids.