I just realized something!

[Vigormortis]

Um...what? I don't... This thread makes no sense.

I've been a gamer since the 80's. I've owned at least a dozen+ consoles and have been building my own PC gaming rigs since the mid-90s. I play everything from first-person shooters to real-time strategies to point-and-click adventures to dungeon crawlers to side-scroller adventures to 3rd person platformers. I enjoy the visuals of games like:

Spoiler: this

Spoiler: and this

So does that mean I'm a "hardcore gamer"?

If so, then the OPs argument is flawed and moot.

If not, then I have to ask: Just what the flippity hell constitutes a hardcore gamer?!

 

[ZephrC]

Also, what's up with all the hate for generalizations? Generalizations wouldn't be so dangerous if they weren't frequently correct. A generalization isn't supposed to be accurate for every single member of a group, just generally true of most of them. All this generalization hate is actually kind of anti-intellectual, because generalizations are necessary to discuss societies and their effects on different groups of people. That is an important thing to be able to discuss.

no
what you probably mean is that it's highly important for humans to categorize people since our brains can't handle enough information for every individual we meet.
the problem is when we assume that the way our brains sort stuff MUST be true and apply to everyone the same way, assuming because we think that something applies to a group it is so(like assuming everyone we call "hardcore" is a graphics whore)

Why did you reply to argue with me and then cut off the part where I agreed with you? The very next sentence in my quote there is: "It's only when trying to apply generalizations to individuals that they go horribly wrong, because obviously nothing is going to apply to every member of any group."

Do you just like arguing with people that agree with you? Am I not allowed to discuss groups of people without assuming every single member of that group is completely identical? I'm not quite sure what your point is here.

I actually have a pretty decent gaming PC, and I play more games on it than on consoles lately. I was never complaining about PC gamers in general, just a very specific subset of all gamers that in my experience have been the people who called themselves hardcore.

The thing about spreadsheets wasn't really very clearly phrased on my part. I'm not really talking about stuff like X-Com. I'm talking about the way lots of games 'add RPG elements' by sticking a spreadsheet into a twitch shooter. I've always thought that was very odd and not very fun.

Also, my definition of hard would be something that I have trouble completing, not just something where death is an expected gameplay mechanic. Is that really so odd? It is subjective I suppose, so maybe some people do find Dark Souls hard, but I sure didn't.

snip

I've actually never heard anyone use the term hardcore gamer that way before. I mean sure there is that bit about hard right there in the title, but when has logic ever effected how people use words? But then again...

Don't lump me with those douche bags, please. People who identify themselves as Hardcore gamers sometimes use it as a screen to profess stupid idea or prejudice, such as using it to differentiate between themselves and 'casual' gamers who they irrationally hate, or using it as sort of badge of honor to say how 'good' and 'skilled' they are. That has just sort of polluted any fragile meaning the word had. If you don't identify with it its probably because you've only seen douche bags use the term to describe themselves.

You know what, maybe you're both right. Maybe I've just had unlucky experiences with the term hardcore. I didn't mean to direct this statement quite so broadly as it's been received, so I apologize.

 

[ZephrC]

I think this is missing the mark just a tad.

Look I'll make it simple.

Barring casuals and non-gamers (since they have their own "tier" so to speak), gamers tend to develop and split into 4 different paths.

- Gamer/Mainstream: Just you know, doing more of the same on a slightly larger scale. May move on if life requires it, may still play the odd title here and there fairly casually.

- Hardcore: Gamers that tend to focus on one genre and try to perfect it. To evolve it into meta at best. Coming off as pretentious at worse.
This is usually where the competative sport-style games fall into. Advance terminology specific for that game/genre. That competition can make people egotistical, and a bit closed-minded.
Sometimes this can be hardware/performance related. People can be passionate about it, but the real Hardcore will JUSTIFY themselves. The posers won't ever be able to.

- Enthusiast: Where quite a few of us here are. We too have become a little meta, but its different. We play MORE games, of different genres, sometimes having hundreds of games should our finances allow it. We look beyond to the industry and the design in general, not a subset like a "Hardcore" might.

- "Hardcore" Posers: The people that claim to "Hardcore", but really are just lame. They will try to say something they think is smart, but makes little sense or just refuse to back it up. They tend to have like 3 or 4 games and base their entire viewpoints upon them.
No! You people don't acutally deserve to judge X or Y, when you only have a xbox, or PC you built from someone else's list, and you only play Call of Duty or FIFA, or whatever generic garbage PC equivalent.
^ These people are the most vocal, and they give gaming a bad name.
These are the sort of people that wouldn't ever touch a NES game because "THE GRAPHECS LOK BAD!!!??!", therefore its shit.

No its because you know as well as I do, that you just cannot play a game that doesn't hold your hand! That your frail arguments would crumble in practice.

Of course, these are again, generalisations, and in real life, this is all blurred, but trust me, get to the level I am on, and you see the patterns.

Oh! What level are you!

Seriously though, I actually like those classifications. Given those definitions the gamers I was complaining about way back in the OP would mostly be the "Hardcore" Posers, with some of the more annoying actual hardcore gamers as well.

That'd probably make me mostly a gaming enthusiast. I kinda like that term.

And again, I feel compelled to point out that I never meant to imply that every gamer ever was either hardcore or casual. Just because those are the only types I mentioned doesn't mean I think they're the only types that exist. Why does everyone assume that?

 

[Mr. GameBrain]

Oh! What level are you!

Seriously though, I actually like those classifications. Given those definitions the gamers I was complaining about way back in the OP would mostly be the "Hardcore" Posers, with some of the more annoying actual hardcore gamers as well.

That'd probably make me mostly a gaming enthusiast. I kinda like that term.

And again, I feel compelled to point out that I never meant to imply that every gamer ever was either hardcore or casual. Just because those are the only types I mentioned doesn't mean I think they're the only types that exist. Why does everyone assume that?

Me? I'm an enthusiast. I've been so for about 6 or 7 years. (About 14 or so when I really started to get into games as an industry and as an artform, I'm 21 now, but I know far more than what most people my age and older would know, and probably should know. I see a Street Fighter 2 shirt someone was wearing today, I instantly knew it was from the original street fighter 2, due to the sprites themselves (they cleaned up the portraits in almost every subsequent version, especially the Super versions that were developed on the better CPS2 hardware, as opposed to more limited CPS1 hardware), and the use of only the orignal 8's portraits as well (the "boss" characters, Vega, M.Bison, Sagat, and Balrog were added in the Championship edition (made playable, but not properly balanced until the Turbo edition))

Someone was talking about how Sony and Nintendo were at one point working together on a console.

I instantly corrected them, by saying it was actually originally meant to be a CD add-on for the Super Nintendo.
(And I also know that Sony and Nintendo's relationship soured due to an argument over royalites, and Nintendo courting Phillips which eventually lead to the hilarious CDI Zelda games)

You know... stuff like that :3

EDIT: Also another fairly common knowledge point most enthusiasts would know.
Due to M.Bison resembling and basically parodying Mike Tyson, they had to switch the names around in the English releases.

M.Bison (Boxer) became Balrog
Vega (Dictator) became M.Bison
And Balrog (Claw) became Vega


Also Fei Long -> homage to Bruce Lee (well duh! But people sometimes don't get that)

Aaaaand I'm going to stop there. Heck! I could spend a week talking about the Street Fighter series alone! XD

 

[Exius Xavarus]

So.. I can't be hardcore because Persona 4 is not on the same level as Crysis graphically?

THEN MAKE ME A FRIGGIN' CASUAL.

OT: Why can't you be a hardcore while not being a graphics whore? I do it.

Or people could be more like me. Casually hardcore. :}

 

[Muspelheim]

Hardcore?

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/300/415/44a.png

I don't really identify myself as hardcore, or even a gamer. I do play videogames and like them, but I like to read, too. I'm not a "reader". I'm Rolf, son of a -et cetera.

I do love me some weird, ridiculously complex games, though. ArmA 2 and Dwarf Fortress in particular. There's just so many things you can do in that kind of game that you just can't in more simple, streamlined games. That's not to say they don't have their place, I play those kind of games, too. But it's all about having a particular experience.

Graphics are worthless without a good game to hang 'em on. I have played Crysis, and it wasn't the glitzy graphics I enjoyed, but the fun gameplay. No other games up until them let me dismantle a garden shed by throwing live Koreans at it. That's what I'm after, not to chase the graphics butterfly to the ends of time. Hell, World of Warcraft still strikes me as a beautiful place, because that type of design just holds up well to time. It's all about creating the framework you want for your game, if you ask me.

Choosing PC gaming in my case don't have anything to do with graphics, really. It's just better at providing me with more varied experiences. Plus, it comes with many perks. While I could get Skyrim for Xbox and be perfectly happy with the graphics, I still got it for PC since it allows me to download the devtools and build myself a neat home and other goodies like that. I think there's loads of people who are like me when it comes to their choice of platform.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip
I assume you weren't poorly when you shelled out for that setup?

No haha.

I am having a bit of a bad time of it at the moment. Hoping to get my life back once I have this op (I can't even walk up and down the stairs without being in agony).

 

[teebeeohh]

Why did you reply to argue with me and then cut off the part where I agreed with you? The very next sentence in my quote there is: "It's only when trying to apply generalizations to individuals that they go horribly wrong, because obviously nothing is going to apply to every member of any group."

Do you just like arguing with people that agree with you? Am I not allowed to discuss groups of people without assuming every single member of that group is completely identical? I'm not quite sure what your point is here.

wow i really suck at quoting (and was writing this before going to sleep so if we take anything from this thread: don't post when tired). the point i was trying to make is that you started the thread, threw some generalizations our way and didn't even try not to apply those to everyone ("you are all graphics whores" instead of "all those damn graphics whores"). Most of the backlash was probably because your statement was phrased so that it seems to be "YOU ARE" instead of "those guys exist and are a major problem". You also came across like a condescending dick with your old man rant.(which you don't seem to be considering the rest your wrote here)
And saying that disliking generalizations is anti-intellectual is kinda funny since right now in political discourse it's mainly used to turn people into "them" without having to deal with actual issues.

I actually have a pretty decent gaming PC, and I play more games on it than on consoles lately. I was never complaining about PC gamers in general, just a very specific subset of all gamers that in my experience have been the people who called themselves hardcore.

again: probably should have made that clearer in the opening post where you mentioned PCs in the context "PCs are better because they have better graphics" and i was just pointing out that like 90% of the people i know who have high-powered rigs build them because they like building PCs and know how to do it, not in order max out crysis.

The thing about spreadsheets wasn't really very clearly phrased on my part. I'm not really talking about stuff like X-Com. I'm talking about the way lots of games 'add RPG elements' by sticking a spreadsheet into a twitch shooter. I've always thought that was very odd and not very fun.

could you just give me an example of what you mean? i really have no idea because i really don't consider your average "RPG-elements put into random genre" to be spreasheety. when i think of spreasheets i think of Europa universalis, Hearts of Iron and EVE online.

Also, my definition of hard would be something that I have trouble completing, not just something where death is an expected gameplay mechanic. Is that really so odd? It is subjective I suppose, so maybe some people do find Dark Souls hard, but I sure didn't.

but there are a lot of reasons for having trouble completing a game, i had trouble completing Bioshock, not because i didn't know what i was supposed to do or how to do it but because the game kinda dragged in its last third and bored me. so would you games tend to be hard for you when you have to figure out what to do (where do i have to go to advance the plot?) or when you know what to do, but have a hard time doing it(how do i jump to that platform?)

oh and something regarding your opening post: there is such a thing as "dumbing down"(see deus ex invisible war), however it is not the same as making games more accessible(see the civilization for consoles), it sadly just goes hand in hand a lot and a what you call "hardcore gamer" tend to use those words interchangeably.

 

[Manji187]

I can't identify with gamers who are on a strict diet of multiplayer shooters and sports games and find pretty much everything else "gay". Then again, few people can.

As for the graphics issue, I think it comes down to preference (or tolerance). Personally, I won't for the life of me play an ASCII game, but I enjoy the hell out of Minecraft.

 

[Bitcoon]

snip

I've actually never heard anyone use the term hardcore gamer that way before. I mean sure there is that bit about hard right there in the title, but when has logic ever effected how people use words?

Then we have truly lost, and the term "hardcore" now belongs to a group of imbeciles who stick to the mainstream and never touch anything that isn't amazingly beautiful and being played by everyone else in their group.

Nah, it's bad that people tend to stereotype or apply the apparent ideals of a group to everyone in it. In a better world, we would not use terms like "casual" and "hardcore" at all. To me, hardcore isn't a part of some sliding scale or the black to casual's white. It's a separate thing, it's a love of challenge, something a lot of people who were raised by 8/16-bit era games tend to stick to today. To you, it seems to be the apparent opposite of casual... which it kind of is, by my definition, too. Though I would never count many mainstream games like Dead Space or Call of Duty as "hard."
Really, I think the issue lies a lot in two simple facts:

1. Nobody falls into these categories perfectly. Some people love challenge to an almost masochistic level like me, but will almost never play anything outside of their favorite genre. Some mainstream gamers will play every version of CoD out there and others won't. Some will dig through the Wii's library to find the gems and others will buy the console and proceed to ignore it altogether, choosing to refer to how it's gathering dust on their shelf all the time. Everyone has their preferences and not everyone is the same. It seems like titles such as "hardcore" or "casual" as they tend to be used do more harm than good in that sense.
2. Nobody can agree on what these terms mean. That you've never even HEARD of the way I've defined hardcore for almost all my life is a pretty good example of that.