I wanna talk about Lootboxes

[I can't enter my old name]

The first I ever saw lootboxes were in TF2, yet I never see anyone complaining about TF2 besides making fun of the hats - not even the hat economy which honestly deserves the most hate. So instead of hating the branches, hate the roots.

I called it out as gambling back when it came out in 2010. There was plenty of hate on the steam forums. It was a betrayal by Valve, because everyone at that time assumed Valve would never do something like that. This is was EA/Activision level business practice, except it was more scummy.

People will spend big money on anything rare and shiny. Think jewelry and designer clothes. People would pay for hats that costed more than the game itself. Then came "unusuals", which were hats with a particle effect that were only obtainable by gambling with loot crates. People would spend hundreds of dollars for such trite. It didn't matter how ugly it was, the fact it was rare and shiny meant people wanted such hats.

You could technically get your money back if you were lucky, but you would have to convert your keys/earbuds to real currency at a third party site. The profit you make was always from someone else's expense, never Valve's.

Valve will never lose money through this transaction. Valve will never lose money by creating more keys. This is like a casino that never has to pay anything out.

The vocal minority that hated the Mannconomy update either stopped caring or left the game. After that tf2 went free to play just for more people to scam, and became designed around this store. You can see a massive decline in quality from thereon, and now tf2 is a clusterfuck that barely resembles its Quake-based origins, and more like a cheap Chinese f2p knockoff.

 

[Amaror]

snip

I am not one to jump to the defense of loot boxes, but what are you talking about here. Where does it say that there are specific orcs only availible through loot boxes? How would that even work? All the orcs in the game are randomly generated. There aren't specific orcs in those lootboxes. Just like all the orcs that you meet in the world they are randomly generated once you open the box. Besides there are daily challenges that give you some amount of the premium currency. So if you really really want to open a chest you can just grind some of those. Just fullfilling a daily challenge to capture a fortress for example gives you enough currency to almost buy one of the most expensive boxes.
Overall I personally don't mind the system used. It doesn't feel intrusive while playing at least. Still think that it's inclusion is BS, though. And I fully understand every person who doesn't want to buy the game with this stuff in it.

 

[Veldel]

For single player games that use them just hack your money in game and buy as many as you want and use them as rewards for each mission instead of the pitiful rewards given sense its your game you can do what you want with it.


Dont bother with lootboxes or games that are play to win with lootboxes tho then your being a dick to other people.

 

[Kotaro]

Lookboxes or other microtransations are completely unacceptable in any high-production game over $20.

Don't care if they're cosmetic or any bullshit like that, I'm out.

I would go even further and say that if the game charges anything up-front--even if it's less than $1--it has no business containing microtransactions, period. And lootboxes/gacha are even more unforgivable. They are literally gambling.
I'm no game reviewer, but if I was, any game containing microtransactions of any kind, even for purely cosmetic stuff, that isn't free-to-play would automatically receive the lowest possible score, with zero chance of earning anything higher.

 

[WeepingAngels]

Microtransactions/DLC are like extra fees for people who can't control themselves just like pre-ordering is for people who can't contain their own hype. I am quite happy to let those people subsidize those of us who will not pay these extra fees.

 

[Neverhoodian]

Overwatch is as far as I am willing to go in terms of lootboxes. Here's why:

- All cosmetic/No power or progression advantage
- No subscription cost for active dev support/ongoing patches/competitive balancing/new free characters, maps, and other content
- Multiplayer (and by that I mean it's not a loot boxes in a single player game scenario)
- You can buy things directly with in-game currency

Typically I am against loot boxes in $60 games, but if it offers a lot of longevity, isn't pay to win, and you don't need to pay for new content, I give it a pass. I do think OW gold should be earned as you level rather than obtained randomly in loot boxes, however.

I agree with this assessment, but I'd like to add some more observations/caveats:

-Players should have the option to buy the unlocks they want directly without having to resort to grinding/purchasing lootboxes and hoping for the best or stockpiling coins at an agonizingly slow rate. I might actually fork over the money if such a system was in place.

-Time-sensitive unlock mechanics can go die in a fire. Every event I'm forced to make a Sophie's Choice-esque decision about which skin I want to get while waiting a year for a shot at getting the others. The fact that all new event skins from the past few months have been Legendary that cost a mint's worth of coins certainly isn't helping matters.

-Blizzard actually banned players for trying to circumvent the loot box system via custom games where people idled for XP on the grounds that it was "cheating." That's right, they considered the OW equivalent of TF2's idle/trading servers (which Valve has no issues with, btw) to be on the same level as aimbots and wallhacks. The worst part is that Blizzard KNEW something like this was probably going to happen when they added the option for custom games, but instead of taking preemptive measures like nerfing/disabling XP gain for said modes they left it in anyway. It was the video game equivalent of entrapment, yet legions of people came out of the woodwork (even on these forums) to defend Blizzard's douchebag move.

The first I ever saw lootboxes were in TF2, yet I never see anyone complaining about TF2 besides making fun of the hats - not even the hat economy which honestly deserves the most hate. So instead of hating the branches, hate the roots.

TF2 is F2P. The type of game you're supposed to have micro transactions in. Not games that charge full price up front.

TF2 wasn't always F2P. It would have been nice if those of us who forked over the money for it at launch were given some sort of recognition for that aside from the one token hat we got, such as getting one free key per month or something.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Well, can't argue with that.

 

[Marik2]

They're gambling, not booster packs.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Dont like them? Dont buy them. Easy.

You are not a magpie, just say no.

"Loot boxes are optional" is probably the biggest misconception of the industry, right now.

If somebody offers you something for sale, they are going to want you to buy it, and that often means comprimising the rest of the game to compensate.

So yes, it is true that when I play Overwatch, the game doesnt force me to go into the store, open my wallet, and purchase 50 lootboxes, but dont you think the leveling system (ie, the only way to get boxes without paying) is awfully slow?

Even then, lets say I'm playing EA's Battlefront 2: again, nothing is forcing me to throw my wallet at the screen for precious boxes, but what if I join a match with someone who just blew $500 to unlock everything, and is now running around with level 4 Star Cards in every slot, a few hours after the game just launched. Having to deal with that doesnt sound optional to me.

OT: Microtransactionss are a F2P monetisation scheme that has been adapted by the AAA industry to get more money from their customers, but lootboxes have taken it a step further by comprimising the games as a whole, to make microtransactions as enticing as possible. In a $60, its having your cake, and eating it too.

The concept of loot boxes isn't a bad one. Its like when you come across a treasure chest in a dungeon. I like random. The second you hide that chest behind a paywall, however, is the second it starts to become predatory.

Hopefully paid lootboxes will go the way of the dodo, but seeing as they have trippled the value of the industry, frankly I cant see that happening anytime soon.

Well that's the difference between the decent use of loot boxes, and the shitty use of loot boxes.

In overwatch nothing is forcing you to buy loot boxes because nothing you can get in a loot box confers any advantage to you. You just get a spray, a skin, a voiceline, etc. These have no gameplay advantage to have, it's just a thing that looks cool. Yes, the leveling system is pretty slow, but you don't actually need any of those skins or anything else to enjoy the game. Those skins don't change the game in any way.

Compare that to something like Battlefront where the loot boxes give players direct advantage over other players, or call of duty where they lock away new weapons in loot boxes (not necessarily good weapons, but weapons that tend to be pretty different from what's in the base game), and you see the problem.

Overwatch uses its loot boxes to fund further development of free content and doesn't really inconvenience you in any way if you just want to play the game. Your overall experience with the gameplay doesn't become worse because you choose not to pay for loot boxes. It's only a slightly scummy system, whereas something like Battlefront goes the full scumbag route by making your overall experience with the game worse for not shelling out extra money.

 

[CritialGaming]

snip

I am not one to jump to the defense of loot boxes, but what are you talking about here. Where does it say that there are specific orcs only availible through loot boxes? How would that even work? All the orcs in the game are randomly generated. There aren't specific orcs in those lootboxes. Just like all the orcs that you meet in the world they are randomly generated once you open the box. Besides there are daily challenges that give you some amount of the premium currency. So if you really really want to open a chest you can just grind some of those. Just fullfilling a daily challenge to capture a fortress for example gives you enough currency to almost buy one of the most expensive boxes.
Overall I personally don't mind the system used. It doesn't feel intrusive while playing at least. Still think that it's inclusion is BS, though. And I fully understand every person who doesn't want to buy the game with this stuff in it.

Gamestop's facebook pages explained that there are some orcs that can only be gotten from the paid lootboxes. I also saw this on a Kotaku report that said that Legendary orcs are only available in paid boxes, the free boxes can only have up to epic orcs. I am at work and can't cite the articles directly, but it's out there.

I have been playing Shadow of War and so far have 8 hours into the game. I am not yet far enough into the game to dominate orcs to work for me, apparently that happens in Act 2 and I have been blindly running around murdering shit.

What I will say is that the game is a great orc murder simulator, but the story so far is fucking nonsense.

 

[TheFinish]

Dont like them? Dont buy them. Easy.

You are not a magpie, just say no.

"Loot boxes are optional" is probably the biggest misconception of the industry, right now.

If somebody offers you something for sale, they are going to want you to buy it, and that often means comprimising the rest of the game to compensate.

So yes, it is true that when I play Overwatch, the game doesnt force me to go into the store, open my wallet, and purchase 50 lootboxes, but dont you think the leveling system (ie, the only way to get boxes without paying) is awfully slow?

Even then, lets say I'm playing EA's Battlefront 2: again, nothing is forcing me to throw my wallet at the screen for precious boxes, but what if I join a match with someone who just blew $500 to unlock everything, and is now running around with level 4 Star Cards in every slot, a few hours after the game just launched. Having to deal with that doesnt sound optional to me.

OT: Microtransactionss are a F2P monetisation scheme that has been adapted by the AAA industry to get more money from their customers, but lootboxes have taken it a step further by comprimising the games as a whole, to make microtransactions as enticing as possible. In a $60, its having your cake, and eating it too.

The concept of loot boxes isn't a bad one. Its like when you come across a treasure chest in a dungeon. I like random. The second you hide that chest behind a paywall, however, is the second it starts to become predatory.

Hopefully paid lootboxes will go the way of the dodo, but seeing as they have trippled the value of the industry, frankly I cant see that happening anytime soon.

Well that's the difference between the decent use of loot boxes, and the shitty use of loot boxes.

In overwatch nothing is forcing you to buy loot boxes because nothing you can get in a loot box confers any advantage to you. You just get a spray, a skin, a voiceline, etc. These have no gameplay advantage to have, it's just a thing that looks cool. Yes, the leveling system is pretty slow, but you don't actually need any of those skins or anything else to enjoy the game. Those skins don't change the game in any way.

Compare that to something like Battlefront where the loot boxes give players direct advantage over other players, or call of duty where they lock away new weapons in loot boxes (not necessarily good weapons, but weapons that tend to be pretty different from what's in the base game), and you see the problem.

Overwatch uses its loot boxes to fund further development of free content and doesn't really inconvenience you in any way if you just want to play the game. Your overall experience with the gameplay doesn't become worse because you choose not to pay for loot boxes. It's only a slightly scummy system, whereas something like Battlefront goes the full scumbag route by making your overall experience with the game worse for not shelling out extra money.

The thing is, why does Overwatch need the randomness? It's plainly just to get more money out of the consumer. Money Blizzard obviously does not need, considering they're rolling in dough. DOTA and LoL let you just buy skins, why can't Overwatch? And this is even more egregious with limited edition skins, like in most events. I mean have people forgotten that for the first of these events you couldn't even buy the special skins with in-game funds? Loot boxes or bust.

Yeah, Battlefront does it worse than Overwatch. It's still a crap system and should go the way of the Dodo, and people should stop defending this gambling in sheep's clothing. It's bad for the industry and it's creeping into everything.

 

[Tanis]

Does it break the game?
Then fuck 'em.

Unless a level that takes 1HR w/loot boxes turns into a level that takes 2-5 hours, I don't care.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Dont like them? Dont buy them. Easy.

You are not a magpie, just say no.

"Loot boxes are optional" is probably the biggest misconception of the industry, right now.

If somebody offers you something for sale, they are going to want you to buy it, and that often means comprimising the rest of the game to compensate.

So yes, it is true that when I play Overwatch, the game doesnt force me to go into the store, open my wallet, and purchase 50 lootboxes, but dont you think the leveling system (ie, the only way to get boxes without paying) is awfully slow?

Even then, lets say I'm playing EA's Battlefront 2: again, nothing is forcing me to throw my wallet at the screen for precious boxes, but what if I join a match with someone who just blew $500 to unlock everything, and is now running around with level 4 Star Cards in every slot, a few hours after the game just launched. Having to deal with that doesnt sound optional to me.

OT: Microtransactionss are a F2P monetisation scheme that has been adapted by the AAA industry to get more money from their customers, but lootboxes have taken it a step further by comprimising the games as a whole, to make microtransactions as enticing as possible. In a $60, its having your cake, and eating it too.

The concept of loot boxes isn't a bad one. Its like when you come across a treasure chest in a dungeon. I like random. The second you hide that chest behind a paywall, however, is the second it starts to become predatory.

Hopefully paid lootboxes will go the way of the dodo, but seeing as they have trippled the value of the industry, frankly I cant see that happening anytime soon.

Well that's the difference between the decent use of loot boxes, and the shitty use of loot boxes.

In overwatch nothing is forcing you to buy loot boxes because nothing you can get in a loot box confers any advantage to you. You just get a spray, a skin, a voiceline, etc. These have no gameplay advantage to have, it's just a thing that looks cool. Yes, the leveling system is pretty slow, but you don't actually need any of those skins or anything else to enjoy the game. Those skins don't change the game in any way.

Compare that to something like Battlefront where the loot boxes give players direct advantage over other players, or call of duty where they lock away new weapons in loot boxes (not necessarily good weapons, but weapons that tend to be pretty different from what's in the base game), and you see the problem.

Overwatch uses its loot boxes to fund further development of free content and doesn't really inconvenience you in any way if you just want to play the game. Your overall experience with the gameplay doesn't become worse because you choose not to pay for loot boxes. It's only a slightly scummy system, whereas something like Battlefront goes the full scumbag route by making your overall experience with the game worse for not shelling out extra money.

The thing is, why does Overwatch need the randomness? It's plainly just to get more money out of the consumer. Money Blizzard obviously does not need, considering they're rolling in dough. DOTA and LoL let you just buy skins, why can't Overwatch? And this is even more egregious with limited edition skins, like in most events. I mean have people forgotten that for the first of these events you couldn't even buy the special skins with in-game funds? Loot boxes or bust.

Yeah, Battlefront does it worse than Overwatch. It's still a crap system and should go the way of the Dodo, and people should stop defending this gambling in sheep's clothing. It's bad for the industry and it's creeping into everything.

I didn't say it wasn't a scummy system, I said it was the least scummy version of the scummy system. Frankly it's fine with me so long as the loot boxes keep paying for free updates to the game (which don't come out nearly frequently enough).

 

[Naldan]

Another question is this. What happens to all the shit I bought from lootboxes, if I want to do a second playthrough? Am I fucked? Does that content carry over onto the game's "account" regardless of save file? I'm willing to bet that it is a one-and-done situation where if you start a new game, your new save with not have access to any of the cool orcs or whatever else you got from lootboxes you BOUGHT in the first save. Which to me suggests that the Lootbox economy activity limits replay ability of the game as it discourages anyone from wiping out progress they paid for.

Holy shit, could somebody please answer this?

 

[bjj hero]

Dont like them? Dont buy them. Easy.

You are not a magpie, just say no.

"Loot boxes are optional" is probably the biggest misconception of the industry, right now.

If somebody offers you something for sale, they are going to want you to buy it, and that often means comprimising the rest of the game to compensate.

So yes, it is true that when I play Overwatch, the game doesnt force me to go into the store, open my wallet, and purchase 50 lootboxes, but dont you think the leveling system (ie, the only way to get boxes without paying) is awfully slow?

I played a lot of overwatch. I never paid for a lootbox. I played a lot of ME3 online. Never bought a lootbox. Ive even played a lot of Heathstone and never bought a pack (same thing).

I still got the full experience from all 3 games. That makes paying for loot boxes seem pretty optional to me.

 

[Amaror]

Gamestop's facebook pages explained that there are some orcs that can only be gotten from the paid lootboxes. I also saw this on a Kotaku report that said that Legendary orcs are only available in paid boxes, the free boxes can only have up to epic orcs. I am at work and can't cite the articles directly, but it's out there.

I have been playing Shadow of War and so far have 8 hours into the game. I am not yet far enough into the game to dominate orcs to work for me, apparently that happens in Act 2 and I have been blindly running around murdering shit.

What I will say is that the game is a great orc murder simulator, but the story so far is fucking nonsense.

Ah ok I get it now. Don't know whether there are legendaries in the silver lootboxes, though there definetly are legendary orcs just running around and getting generated in the world. Hell, one random berserker-orc killed me and I took revenge on him. Afterwards he came back as a legendary orc who was basically a cyborg. He did that twice. So there are definetly legendary orcs around, though they could most definetly be more frequent, since they are the only way to get that sweet legendary equipment, besides the bright-lord and vengeance set.

Stories shit, though. It really annoys me how handholdy they are again, even worse this time than shadow of morder. In the first game they relatively quickly set you loose in the world saying: "Have fun" with most main missions involving the normal player mission of offing all the warchiefs. This time there are these endless boring cutscenes about dumb character we don't care about. You have this great sandbox game here, just let me freaking play it without locking all the cool abilities behind dumb story missions please.

 

[Rednog]

snip

I am not one to jump to the defense of loot boxes, but what are you talking about here. Where does it say that there are specific orcs only availible through loot boxes? How would that even work? All the orcs in the game are randomly generated. There aren't specific orcs in those lootboxes. Just like all the orcs that you meet in the world they are randomly generated once you open the box. Besides there are daily challenges that give you some amount of the premium currency. So if you really really want to open a chest you can just grind some of those. Just fullfilling a daily challenge to capture a fortress for example gives you enough currency to almost buy one of the most expensive boxes.
Overall I personally don't mind the system used. It doesn't feel intrusive while playing at least. Still think that it's inclusion is BS, though. And I fully understand every person who doesn't want to buy the game with this stuff in it.

Gamestop's facebook pages explained that there are some orcs that can only be gotten from the paid lootboxes. I also saw this on a Kotaku report that said that Legendary orcs are only available in paid boxes, the free boxes can only have up to epic orcs. I am at work and can't cite the articles directly, but it's out there.

I have been playing Shadow of War and so far have 8 hours into the game. I am not yet far enough into the game to dominate orcs to work for me, apparently that happens in Act 2 and I have been blindly running around murdering shit.

What I will say is that the game is a great orc murder simulator, but the story so far is fucking nonsense.

Just want to throw it out there that there's a decent amount of Legendary orcs running around naturally on the maps. Also once you reach the second part of Act 2 the game actually has daily quests that reward the gold lootbox currency.

 

[Tarias]

Just finished Shadow of War, turns out that 20 siege slog at the end? Each siege has at least 1 legendary orc and fairly often 2. Lootboxes are still dumb because the legendary gear is awesome and after you finish that gauntlet of sieges you're pretty much left with online invasions and online vendettas to use them on which is disappointing. Without lootboxes i got up to 45/61 of the available Legendary gear set pieces, which makes getting the last 16 or so a slog at best. 18 of those pieces are pretty much gotten as full sets of 6 for doing the trinket hunts, online vendettas, and as part of the main story. You're also guaranteed to hit at least 12 legendary lords as part of the main story outside of that before you get to the siege gauntlet.

Also, dupes are a thing. So i have several copies of several items which are only worth about 500 mirian each, which means i could get more from finding a treasure olog.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Overwatch got a pass from me because when I play a game, I do it for the gameplay/story, not pretty skins/graphics, so the loot boxes are more of an occasional "Oh hey, neat, I got something cool", and not something I really care too much about aside from a few really cool event skins. And even if I miss one that I wanted (see Witch Mercy last year), I'll just go "awww", shrug and carry on with my life.

But more and more I'm souring on it by seeing the crap other people are doing with it. Destiny 2's turning of Shaders into loot box material (in sets of 3, not 4!) plus mod tweakers in there, Shadow of War's "yo dawg, buy our boxes and skip gameplay...Oh BTW, you need shittons of orcs for the real ending, so prepare to do a ton of grinding or buy boxes!" and Battlefront 2's tying of all gameplay progression and thus, Power, to RNG loot boxes are just plain despicable.

You can make the claim that "Loot boxes are optional" in Overwatch and maybe Destiny 2. You can claim that "It's your choice to skip gameplay" in Shadow of War. But they are not optional at all in Battlefront 2. It's the only way to gain power, and people who spend more will have an inherent advantage over people who don't. That's the exact opposite of ok.

 

[KaraFang]

Dont like them? Dont buy them. Easy.

You are not a magpie, just say no.

"Loot boxes are optional" is probably the biggest misconception of the industry, right now.

If somebody offers you something for sale, they are going to want you to buy it, and that often means comprimising the rest of the game to compensate.

So yes, it is true that when I play Overwatch, the game doesnt force me to go into the store, open my wallet, and purchase 50 lootboxes, but dont you think the leveling system (ie, the only way to get boxes without paying) is awfully slow?

I played a lot of overwatch. I never paid for a lootbox. I played a lot of ME3 online. Never bought a lootbox. Ive even played a lot of Heathstone and never bought a pack (same thing).

I still got the full experience from all 3 games. That makes paying for loot boxes seem pretty optional to me.

The issue you have now is that the lootboxes that are sneaking into paid for games are beginning to affect gameplay directly. It started with cosmetics only, but it's starting to leak into actual gameplay - Deus Ex allowed the purchase of boosters that affected your skills and overall gameplay experience and now we have Star Wars Battlefront which is providing the "grind" or "buy" option for the performance enhancing cards which can be applied.

The issue you have is that for those of us who are on a limited budget, can buy the game, but not the boosters... those of us like that are forced to potentially have a "lesser" or at least more frustrating experience than those of us who can through wealth (your own or your parents) buy essentially benefits for themselves.

In single player this isn't too bad as long as the game has not been re-balanced so that those who cant afford the boosters can stil have the same fun, go the same places, with as little a disadvantage as possible.

The moment this ends, we have an issue in singleplayer.

in multiplayer, anything that allows someone with cash to get an advantage over anyone else is a bad thing... a very bad thing.