Im super proud of 4chan.

[Jennacide]

I'm proud to say that I was part of the group prodding from the sidelines to make this happen, though not for the reasons a lot of /v/ wanted to do it for. Something that I feel not a lot of people understand is that feminist is far too broad a term, and covers way too many of us. You have people like myself that support a woman's right to enter into prostitution or pornography if they want (by choice, obviously, not coercion), and in the same group you have people like Phyllis Schlafly who is the main opponent of the Equal Rights Amendment because we "will lose our special privileges." Yeah, Phyllis, that's what equality actually means. And the reason you will find women like myself on the side of 4chan against a lot of the SJW nonsense that goes on at places like Tumblr and Kotaku. I despise women like Patty Hernandez for doing nothing but stirring the pot and offering no useful points to advance the real goal of opening up the industry to more women and reducing sexism. Instead she slanders anything she personally finds remotely offensive and wants censorship of any woman in games that isn't dressed like they're from the 1920's. Sure, some games go overboard, but there is a line to be drawn. If the artist in question can justify the appearance due to style or time period, shut your cake hole about it. (Perfect example being Dragon's Crown and the Sorceress.)

Kinda getting off topic here, but felt the need to address some things that bother me, and why you'd see me support a group like /v/, despite it's depth of misogny. The whole board isn't that way, and this shows it. There are way more girls posting there then people realize, but we keep our heads down and remain one of the legion of anon, that way we function as a unit and can try to get things done.

Let us be honest here people, if 4chan was going to do something out of spite, do you really think it would be them donating to a charity?

Really think about it, I mean really think about it.

When a group you like gives to charity it's because they're all wonderful people. When a group you dislike gives to charity it's because of the circumstances. This is just cognitive dissonance. How do you reconcile the idea that this are bad people, and they are doing a good thing? You say it's not because of who they are it's because of whats around them.

More over I don't care, and I don't see why anyone should. The intent of the party involved isn't relevant only the outcome is. Rationalize it all you want I don't see a difference in long run.

Having taken part in a lot of the recent /v/ threads about Vivian, it wasn't circumstance or kindness. For a greater portion it really was just spite and malice. Not everyone, obviously, but a vocal enough group did it just out of hatred of ladies like Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkessian, Patty Hernandez and others.

 

[Norithics]

I would be a little more optimistic if I didn't see her as a sockpuppet for the way people would like others to be. Which may not be the original intent, but boy howdy is that happening.

Also disagreements over the "don't sexualize Vivian" aspect is really crampingly ironic and funny to me.

 

[AJ_Lethal]

There was a Twitlonger post somewhere in the middle of the Zoe thread by a feminist blogger that had my point here.

Paraphrased:
"To all the people who say this was all given out of spite, I don't think they would do that if they didn't already believe in it in some way. If trolls were to fill my blog with NSFW pics, I would not immediately donate to an anti-abortion cause just because they were going to spite them"

"And to all who say this is still wrong, isn't that what we did with [-----]? She said she was being harassed so we all donated to spite the people harassing her?"

Name blanked out because I KNOW just mentioning it will cause derailment.


The fact that /v/ actually created a sensibly dressed female character for a game jam made by women boggles my mind. Perhaps at the end of this, at least there will be more female game developers and characters brought about by the awareness of the situation and the fact that even a part of 4chan is able to do this....
And perhaps winged primates will erupt from my bottom.

That's actually a fantastic point. It's funny that some people will criticize 4chan for donating simply to spite the people that tried to shut it down, but will be completely in support of people donating to Anita (no point in blanking out the name, everyone knows who you're referring to and she's been mentioned in the thread before) simply because they didn't like how a minority of the internet treated her.

Like somebody said: "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Even though /v/ is doing it in part from spite, they are doing something more pragmatical and meaningful than SJWs, Anita and whatever her ilk is.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Like somebody said: "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Even though /v/ is doing it in part from spite, they are doing something more pragmatical and meaningful than SJWs, Anita and whatever her ilk is.

Do I really need to point out that TFYC and the /v/ donation towards it likely wouldn't have happened if it weren't for people like Sarkeesian, "SJWs" and other people positive to inclusion in gaming and their persistent attempts to create a discussion about female representation in gaming?

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Well it's good to see 4chan do something constructive for a change.

 

[waj9876]

There's something you learn by actually using the 4chan website, and reading through a lot of threads. If you do this long enough, you start to realize despite all of the rumors of the website, like 90% of the people that use 4chan can be normal people. Most of the racist and/or sexist remarks I've seen were done in jest.

Just don't go into certain boards you aren't comfortable with, and you'll be fine.

...Of course I guess it's also possible I'm slowly being corrupted by 4chan. I have found myself wanting to type the typical insults they use...

Heh. "You start as a normal person, just browsing the Pokemon, Paranormal, Anime, or even the Video Games boards. Soon you'll be in the deepest reaches of 4chan, slowly jacking on a webcam while chanting "Ayy lmao. Ayy lmao. Ayy lmao"

 

[AJ_Lethal]

Like somebody said: "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Even though /v/ is doing it in part from spite, they are doing something more pragmatical and meaningful than SJWs, Anita and whatever her ilk is.

Do I really need to point out that TFYC and the /v/ donation towards it likely wouldn't have happened if it weren't for people like Sarkeesian, "SJWs" and other people positive to inclusion in gaming and their persistent attempts to create a discussion about female representation in gaming?

Sure, but it was more of an unintended effect since they ain't taking the credit. The fact TFYC is being bashed for getting money from /v/ is a proof they aren't rallying for equality/inclusion/etc, they are doing it for personal gain/ego stroking.

captcha: "she loves him"

hoo boy, even captcha is into this :/

 

[Verlander]

snip

snip

snip

Thanks all of you for these answers - they've genuinely helped, so I really appreciate it.

OT: It seems a little like even a place of negativity can produce something somewhat "positive", even if it's for the wrong reasons. I don't really see it as praiseworthy though. As for helping TFYC... I see what they're doing, but I don't see it as that huge though. That's personal though, I haven't looked into the competition further than a cursory glance.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

Like somebody said: "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Even though /v/ is doing it in part from spite, they are doing something more pragmatical and meaningful than SJWs, Anita and whatever her ilk is.

That proverb, I do not think it means what you think it means. If I were to invent a saying to fit your meaning, it would be, "The road to heaven is paved with bad intentions."

Do I really need to point out that TFYC and the /v/ donation towards it likely wouldn't have happened if it weren't for people like Sarkeesian, "SJWs" and other people positive to inclusion in gaming and their persistent attempts to create a discussion about female representation in gaming?

Very good point.

One thing that hasn't been brought up are the reasons for lack of support for from the feminist "side" in regards to The Fine Young Capitalists. Seeing as half my Twitter feed has rolled characters in the various Social Justice classes (primarily Paladin, I believe), I think I can shed some light on that. People were initially somewhat suspicious because these guys kind of came out of nowhere, followed by contentions with Z** Q**nn I'm still not clear on, just like I'm not clear on most of that clusterfuck of a for-some-reason-public narrative. Those aren't concrete reasons, just beginnings. Here's where things get questionable, at best:

1. TFYC themselves are men, and only men. None of them thought having a woman co-founder might be valuable in any way. For some people this is serious. For me, it's notable, if nothing else.

2. Gender Essentialism [http://thefineyoungcapitalists.tumblr.com/post/96169860190/on-equality-and-differences]! Yeah, this is a kind of a big one. It's hard to call yourself a modern feminist human being and subscribe to gender essentialism. This is just fucking creepy.

3. This project has nothing to do with women making games. TFYC has not made much effort to make it clear exactly what will happen to the winning idea, but at its core it's about getting a bunch of women to come up with game ideas, letting the Internet pick one, and then taking the idea away from her and having someone else make it. If you look at their terms and conditions, it says the winner will have "the ability to provide input into the game development process", which is astonishingly vague. She's also entitled to a 8% of the game's net profits - yes, 8%. They have a word for book deals which offer the author 8%; that word is "scam".

You can read TFYC's terms and conditions here [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YUbA6KMjBF3iRNklWHady_CzOADW4604Q1Ut1DHEdIw/edit].

(And a very personal 4. Their site's absurdly unprofessional and poorly designed.)

Now hopefully you know a little more about the reservations people have about TFYC.

 

[DrOswald]

3. This project has nothing to do with women making games. TFYC has not made much effort to make it clear exactly what will happen to the winning idea, but at its core it's about getting a bunch of women to come up with game ideas, letting the Internet pick one, and then taking the idea away from her and having someone else make it. If you look at their terms and conditions, it says the winner will have "the ability to provide input into the game development process", which is astonishingly vague. She's also entitled to a 8% of the game's net profits - yes, 8%. They have a word for book deals which offer the author 8%; that word is "scam".

8% for a decent idea (little more than a design document) is more than generous. Ideas are cheap. Everyone has a great idea. They are offering to turn a great idea into a game. Frankly, I wouldn't pay 2% for an idea. And this is me speaking as an actual software developer. They are asking the winner to do almost nothing (plus be female) for 8% of the profits.

This is more akin to a book deal where a "author" creates a 2 page outline for a 500 page book, occasionally gets a call for creative input, and then gets 8% of the profits.

Edit: Frankly, if you want to see something sinister here, it makes far more sense for their strategy to be paying off a woman to be their figurehead for good PR.

 

[Mkaela Lafond]

It's something done out of pure spite. It's admittedly productive and fairly harmless to everyone, but it was done in spite.

Kudos to you, 4chins, but I don't use /v/ or keep on this shitfit so I don't have much else to say.

Don't knock spite, The Penny Arcade guys started their Child's Play charity out of spite and now it makes millions of dollars every year to bring gaming to children hospitals, having been in the hospital as a child I can say it is not a fun or nice place I would have killed for some of the things they have implemented with their charity and really it was started a giant F-You to some political pundit or senator over them saying gamers never do anything of value.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

3. This project has nothing to do with women making games. TFYC has not made much effort to make it clear exactly what will happen to the winning idea, but at its core it's about getting a bunch of women to come up with game ideas, letting the Internet pick one, and then taking the idea away from her and having someone else make it. If you look at their terms and conditions, it says the winner will have "the ability to provide input into the game development process", which is astonishingly vague. She's also entitled to a 8% of the game's net profits - yes, 8%. They have a word for book deals which offer the author 8%; that word is "scam".

8% for a decent idea (little more than a design document) is more than generous. Ideas are cheap. Everyone has a great idea. They are offering to turn a great idea into a game. Frankly, I wouldn't pay 2% for an idea. And this is me speaking as an actual software developer. They are asking the winner to do almost nothing (plus be female) for 8% of the profits.

This is more akin to a book deal where a "author" creates a 2 page outline for a 500 page book, occasionally gets a call for creative input, and then gets 8% of the profits.

Edit: Frankly, if you want to see something sinister here, it makes far more sense for their strategy to be paying off a woman to be their figurehead for good PR.

I suppose I phrased that poorly, in that I attempted to argue two contradictory ideas at once. The salient point is that these are women competing to have someone else make their game for them. Payment, rewards, and so forth are separate from that.

 

[GenuflectHonesty]

1. TFYC themselves are men, and only men. None of them thought having a woman co-founder might be valuable in any way. For some people this is serious. For me, it's notable, if nothing else.

What are you even talking about? The only male I've seen in this project is Matthew, their PR, and he has stated in the past that he DID want a woman to replace his position, but all the controversy has caused him to get stuck with the role.

2. Gender Essentialism [http://thefineyoungcapitalists.tumblr.com/post/96169860190/on-equality-and-differences]! Yeah, this is a kind of a big one. It's hard to call yourself a modern feminist human being and subscribe to gender essentialism. This is just fucking creepy.

I don't understand why it's "fucking creepy" to admit that there are biological differences in the sexes, which science has already been pointing at for years. The point is to overcome biological differences in order to reach equality. That post you linked shows that very clearly.

3. This project has nothing to do with women making games. TFYC has not made much effort to make it clear exactly what will happen to the winning idea, but at its core it's about getting a bunch of women to come up with game ideas, letting the Internet pick one, and then taking the idea away from her and having someone else make it. If you look at their terms and conditions, it says the winner will have "the ability to provide input into the game development process", which is astonishingly vague. She's also entitled to a 8% of the game's net profits - yes, 8%. They have a word for book deals which offer the author 8%; that word is "scam".

And this is where I get really mad at you, because not only is the winning idea going to get someone paid exactly as they would a producer on a video game project (8%), but it's incredibly scummy to call this a scam considering the other 92% is going to a charity for curing colon cancer!

People's "reservations" on this are largely based on incorrect things, if your post is any indication.

 

[AJ_Lethal]

3. This project has nothing to do with women making games. TFYC has not made much effort to make it clear exactly what will happen to the winning idea, but at its core it's about getting a bunch of women to come up with game ideas, letting the Internet pick one, and then taking the idea away from her and having someone else make it. If you look at their terms and conditions, it says the winner will have "the ability to provide input into the game development process", which is vague. She's also entitled to a 8% of the game's net profits - yes, 8%. They have a word for book deals which offer the author 8%; that word is "scam".

And this is where I get really mad at you, because not only is the winning idea going to get someone paid exactly as they would a producer on a video game project (8%), but it's incredibly scummy to call this a scam considering the other 92% is going to a charity for curing colon cancer!

People's "reservations" on this are largely based on incorrect things, if your post is any indication.

Not to mention the last person who thought it was a scam ended up hacking and doxxing TFYC to goad people into it's own game jam with no place, date or judges (naming said perp is redundant).

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

As someone who has spent WAAAAY too many years on 4chan (the number ryhmes with "fate"), its VERY clear that a lot of people commenting on the site has never been outside of /b/ or /v/.

The idea that they are doing it out of spite is rediculous. Members of 4chan wouldn't give money if they didn't want to. Not to mention, general opinion seems to be that Afterlife Empire looks good.

/v/ is not a hive mind. 4chan is not just /v/.

Also, the idea that 4chan is not creative or constructive is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. Even a cursory glance at /tg/ would prove otherwise, and that only ONE of the creative boards

 

[Olas]

If the goal was merely to spite certain people /v/ could have done so in a whole manner of ways that weren't constructive and didn't cost them any money. The creation of Vivian and the supporting of a charity to promote female involvement in game development was clearly done to counter accusations of misogyny.

You can say they wouldn't have done it if they didn't have pressure to do so, but neither would most people, including many people who identify as feminists, otherwise this thing would have been funded in no time. And the way I see it, people who want to avoid a certain label, are usually not very fond of the label, and by extension what it represents. If they were truly misogynistic, it doesn't seem like something they would do. It's kind of like a KKK member donating money to the NAACP to try and prove they aren't racist.

Why does this seem at all unusual to you? It's called "damage control" or "public relations". The idea is to change one's image through one's actions. It would be like if Hitler financed a Holocaust museum. Or if Israel agreed to a cease fire with Hamas.

Rarely does any force in the world have infinite power. The actions of agents of power take into consideration OTHER forces of power that affect THEIR OWN power. Effective public relations is designed to create more gain from a situation than the cost expended. So when Oprah gives away a car "for free" on her show, the idea is that the publicity she gains from the giveaway is worth more to her than the cost of the car. Likewise, the creation of a "pro-feminist" project by historically anti-feminist gamer forces is designed to create more benefit for their image than the cost of the project itself.

If Hitler had lived through WWII, public relations advice would have told him to apologize, say it was all a "mistake", finance a Holocaust museum, and redefine his image.

People who care more for power than standing up for what they "believe in" will do ANYTHING for additional power, regardless of how much it seems to detract from what they "believe in". In truth, all these people really care about is power itself.

And how does that compare to 4Chan at all? What "power" are they seeking? They haven't lost a war, they have nothing to gain by getting on Tumblr or Zoe Quinn's good side, nor are they trying to. In fact what you're describing is the exact opposite of doing this out of "spite", which is what people are claiming this is.

 

[DrOswald]

3. This project has nothing to do with women making games. TFYC has not made much effort to make it clear exactly what will happen to the winning idea, but at its core it's about getting a bunch of women to come up with game ideas, letting the Internet pick one, and then taking the idea away from her and having someone else make it. If you look at their terms and conditions, it says the winner will have "the ability to provide input into the game development process", which is astonishingly vague. She's also entitled to a 8% of the game's net profits - yes, 8%. They have a word for book deals which offer the author 8%; that word is "scam".

8% for a decent idea (little more than a design document) is more than generous. Ideas are cheap. Everyone has a great idea. They are offering to turn a great idea into a game. Frankly, I wouldn't pay 2% for an idea. And this is me speaking as an actual software developer. They are asking the winner to do almost nothing (plus be female) for 8% of the profits.

This is more akin to a book deal where a "author" creates a 2 page outline for a 500 page book, occasionally gets a call for creative input, and then gets 8% of the profits.

Edit: Frankly, if you want to see something sinister here, it makes far more sense for their strategy to be paying off a woman to be their figurehead for good PR.

I suppose I phrased that poorly, in that I attempted to argue two contradictory ideas at once. The salient point is that these are women competing to have someone else make their game for them. Payment, rewards, and so forth are separate from that.

Not sure why that makes this a "scam" in any way.

 

[Agayek]

Not to mention the last person who thought it was a scam ended up hacking and doxxing TFYC to goad people into it's own game jam with no place, date or judges (naming said perp is redundant).

Yeah, no. You're making an accusation with no evidence but your own biases. If you want to be taken even the slightest bit seriously, don't fucking do that. It's probably the worst thing you can possibly do in a debate.

We do not know who hacked TFYC's indiegogo campaign, and there's no evidence pointing at the responsible party. Stop throwing around accusations you can't back up. And no, having a possible motive is not proof of wrong-doing.

 

[AJ_Lethal]

Not to mention the last person who thought it was a scam ended up hacking and doxxing TFYC to goad people into it's own game jam with no place, date or judges (naming said perp is redundant).

Yeah, no. You're making an accusation with no evidence but your own biases. If you want to be taken even the slightest bit seriously, don't fucking do that. It's probably the worst thing you can possibly do in a debate.

We do not know who hacked TFYC's indiegogo campaign, and there's no evidence pointing at the responsible party. Stop throwing around accusations you can't back up. And no, having a possible motive is not proof of wrong-doing.

Well, excuse my hurried and poor choice of words in the previous post, but the thing is that's the word on the street, and given her and her supporters behavior, its a possibility that she or her supporters are behind it.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

You've never even been there once or know anything else they've done, I can tell just from seeing this one post.

OK, to be fair, /b/ really does bring the whole board down by itself. Otherwise, I'm sure the other boards are much more reputable.