Impossible (to beat) DRM

RhombusHatesYou

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fix-the-spade said:
danpascooch said:
The entire point of piracy is that it's free, how would the crackers make money?
Much the same way any site (this one included) makes money, sell advertising space.
There's other, more nefarious ways too, like adding spyware into the crack or taking people's email addresses and handing them to spammers.
Crackers don't run pirate sites. Most groups can't be contacted in any way unless you know the right people.

As for malwaring their cracks... that would work once after which their rep would be fucked and no one would ever touch another of their cracks. Crackers value their rep more than anything.

The idea that a few weeks is too long to wait is plain daft
Yeah, 'a few weeks' is also widely known as 'the European release date'.
 

LordZ

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Jan 16, 2010
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Seldon2639 said:
I agree that the system shouldn't allow for suits based on independently-created, but similar, products. But, it's difficult, since how do you prove true independence?

But, here's what I'll say:

You're trying to compare apples to oranges. Having two games which are similar, but developed completely isolated from each other, is far different from having "two" games, one of which is a complete copy of the first, only removing the DRM. I'll accept that the system is flawed insofar as it doesn't always allow for independent creation of similar products, but the chances of you simultaneously and independently writing every line of code exactly the same as AC2, only without the DRM, boggles the mind in its low probability.
I'm tired of long and multiple posts so this is a reply to both of your replies.

The reason our argument goes in circles is because you believe intellectual property exists. I do not. There's no way for either of us to prove to that the other is wrong because it is a perception. You say that a thought is your own creation but I say that thoughts belong to no one. Anything you can invent, I can also invent. I may take more or less time and I may or may not do it differently but that does not change the result. Saying you own an idea because you thought of it first is like claiming ownership to the Sun because you saw it first. The only property that can truly be called our own is our minds and bodies. Our thoughts and actions, however, are the domain of all that they effect.

The law may consider it possible to steal thoughts and ideas but I disagree.

You never even discussed the scenario where I bought apples and oranges from you and cloned them instead of growing them. Cloning data and cloning a plant are no different.

As for your example of AC2, similar situations have occurred. In each instance, the person who successfully processed the patent or copyright first won the case. Note, it did not necessarily go to the first to create/think of it. It's my belief that neither are guilty but yet the law feels it is necessary to say one is guilty and the other is not. I feel this is extremely wrong. To arbitrarily call someone wrong for inventing something that bares a great deal or significant resemblance to another invention is just plain wrong.

As for intentionally copying and unintentionally copying, I agree that intentionally copying without providing any sort of improvement is immoral, but I do not agree that it deserves a punishment. Even if you refuse to accept my view that thoughts and ideas are not property, it should be easy to see that a lot of the punishments related to copyright and patents are beyond excessive.

Edit: To go a bit further, it would be fair to say your view favors the individual while my view favors society. In your view, ideas and thoughts belong only to the first to think of it. In my view, ideas and thoughts belong to no one or another way to say is that they belong to all of society. I'm a firm believer in progress of the human race at the expense of personal gain. It seems that you favor personal gain over societal gain.

Without the copyright and patent systems, we would all reap the benefits of any and all knowledge. It could be seen as less of an incentive to be creative but I see it as a greater incentive. You aren't just helping yourself, you are helping everyone.

I have to wonder why you think libraries even exist.
 

tetron

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One thing I'd like to point out about all this is

Shamus Young said:
If the piratepublic server doesn't respond with the right data, then the game can fail silently in a lot of annoying ways.
Using a system like that would be a huge risk.
 

Dogstile

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zakski said:
Seldon2639 said:
LordZ said:
You'd lose that wager. There are plenty of indie games (with or without DRM) that get pirated equally to any "AAA" title. Also, I take offense to your assumption that indie games are somehow worth less than a game that cost 10x as much to make. The monetary cost of development does not equate to overall value. Of course, not all indie games are great treasures to behold but that doesn't change that many are at least as fun as many games that cost a great deal more to produce.

You really enjoy comparing apples to oranges don't you?
[Needs Citation]. Show me the abundance of indie games which get pirated equivalent to the big-label games, and I'll accept I lost the bet. Bear in mind that I'm referring to absolute numbers, not percentages. Show me the indie game with a million downloads off of torrent, and I'll bow out. So, the 92% piracy rate for Ricochet Infinity doesn't mean much. I don't have the total number of players/pirates, but given that it's the 8,484th most popular game on Amazon tells me that its sales are low.

So, find me an indie game which had half the total number of pirated copies as Spore, and I'll back down. Until then, piracy for indie games is less of a problem because fewer people play them anyway...

Or it is a big problem, and the earlier poster's comments about the developers not caring and not having as much of a problem is false, and pirates are bastards even to those companies who attempt to not screw people with DRM.

Kind of says something, that Richochet Infinity (without DRM) had a piracy rate above 90%, doesn't it? Something in the neck of the woods of "pirates are greedy bastards, rather than people who don't like DRM", eh?

Oh, and you really like making statements of fact without any basis in reality, don't you?
World of Goo
Can somebody please get a different game for people to bring up. ONE GAME DOES NOT EQUAL EVERY GAME. PERIOD. END OF. OVER.
 

beddo

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I will never purchase a game that requires an 'always on' connection as a boycott to that publisher and/or developer.

So while they may stop some piracy they will certainly stop legitimate sales.

Assuming they do make an unbreakable DRM system, who are they going to blame when all those pirated copies, not even a small fraction of them, don't net those 'lost sales'?
 

beddo

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LordZ said:
Being the first to copyright the idea may give you a legal right to it as "property" but just because there is a law for it doesn't mean it is correct.
Fortunately you can't copyright an idea. Though you can of course do it for style, aesthetics, story and so on.

LordZ said:
I agree that it is ethically wrong to try to profit (regardless of success) from another person's creative work.
Lol, this would technically make publishers unethical, but I get what you mean, without permission.
 

Cynical skeptic

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m_jim said:
When you talk about the indie developers, that brings me back to the sad example set by World of Goo. The wonderful, creative little game was released by a small studio with no DRM on a "pay what you want" basis. It was a remarkable show of good faith toward the gaming community. The result? Piracy rates over 90% [http://www.joystiq.com/2009/01/30/world-of-goo-publisher-files-for-bankruptcy/] and the company has to file for bankruptcy.

If anything, small independent studios have more to lose from piracy because one failed game can mean the end.
You know whats funny about everyone with their ass in the air about the war crimes against 2D boy? They came to that conclusion by comparing sales to connections to the online leaderboard thing. The actual percentage was 82%. around 300-400 thousand people connected to the online leaderboard... thing. Which means 2D boy made between 1.35 and 1.8 million dollars off world of goo. A game that was developed primarily as entry into a contest (tower of goo) which it won.

Whats even better, is if you ever cite a small independent venture praising [http://www.rlslog.net/piracy-isnt-that-bad-and-they-know-it/] piracy, "oh well thats just one isolated incident."
 

IanPrice

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Sep 11, 2008
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Negative reinforcement doesn't work. Punishment doesn't work. That's not how it works when you're trying to sell something.

You have to bribe your customers to pay you. Sometimes this is literal - money-back on a registered purchase, for example. Often it is figurative - downloaded benefits which are free, but inaccessible without a registered purchase.

This sort of tactic would be easy and inexpensive and far more effective than stomping out the free advertising of the people who know about the game because they heard about it from a player who happened not to have paid for it.
 

Carnagath

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Shamus Young said:
Experienced Points: Impossible (to beat) DRM

Congratulations, Ubisoft, on making DRM so awful that it might eventually work.

Read Full Article
I can verify from a friend (since I am a console gamer) that there is a fully functional cracked version of AC2 out. Everything works and he is halfway through Venice. What's funny is that my friend had saved money to buy AC2, but when he heard about the DRM he decided not to do it and wait for a cracked version, if and when it came out. I expect that now that the pirates have some experience with this DRM, cracks for future games of the kind will come out much sooner.
 

Delusibeta

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Mar 7, 2010
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m_jim said:
When you talk about the indie developers, that brings me back to the sad example set by World of Goo. The wonderful, creative little game was released by a small studio with no DRM on a "pay what you want" basis. It was a remarkable show of good faith toward the gaming community. The result? Piracy rates over 90% [http://www.joystiq.com/2009/01/30/world-of-goo-publisher-files-for-bankruptcy/] and the company PUBLISHER has to file for bankruptcy.

If anything, small independent studios have more to lose from piracy because one failed game can mean the end.
Three problems with that statement.
1) The "pay anything you want" thing was a special promotion to celebrate the first anniversary of the game's release.
2) That piracy rate was calculated by counting the number of IP addresses against the number of sales. So if you have a dynamic IP, you get counted as a pirate. Likewise, if I install it on a laptop and go to a McDonalds and play it there, I would be counted as a pirate.
3) It was the publisher that closed down. And I think the publisher was redundant for World of Goo: 2D Boy self-published the US version pretty much everywhere, including getting it on OnLive. The publisher deal was made for the aborted EU version, and the EU folk got the US version several weeks late, and for the retail version. While it's heartening to see a large number of indies go retail (e.g. Audiosurf, Zeno Clash, Machineium, Killing Floor) it usually only happens months after the digital release, and I doubt the retail sales would compare to that digital release. Besides, there's 1001 possible reasons why the publisher went bust (dodgy deals, people buying it direct from the developers, strikes, etc. etc.). I doubt that piracy was a major factor in the publisher going bust.
 

zakski

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dogstile said:
zakski said:
Seldon2639 said:
[Needs Citation]. Show me the abundance of indie games which get pirated equivalent to the big-label games, and I'll accept I lost the bet. Bear in mind that I'm referring to absolute numbers, not percentages. Show me the indie game with a million downloads off of torrent, and I'll bow out. So, the 92% piracy rate for Ricochet Infinity doesn't mean much. I don't have the total number of players/pirates, but given that it's the 8,484th most popular game on Amazon tells me that its sales are low.

So, find me an indie game which had half the total number of pirated copies as Spore, and I'll back down. Until then, piracy for indie games is less of a problem because fewer people play them anyway...

Or it is a big problem, and the earlier poster's comments about the developers not caring and not having as much of a problem is false, and pirates are bastards even to those companies who attempt to not screw people with DRM.

Kind of says something, that Richochet Infinity (without DRM) had a piracy rate above 90%, doesn't it? Something in the neck of the woods of "pirates are greedy bastards, rather than people who don't like DRM", eh?

Oh, and you really like making statements of fact without any basis in reality, don't you?
World of Goo
Can somebody please get a different game for people to bring up. ONE GAME DOES NOT EQUAL EVERY GAME. PERIOD. END OF. OVER.
You sit. He asked for one game, one indie game that was pirated in comparable numbers to spore. The fact that said game does not appeal to you or that you are sick of hearing about it does not matter to him. Also its a given that, one game != every game for games > 1, so unless you have only recently got a computer that can play more than just pong, stop trolling and posting inflammatory statements on an already hot topic.

As for m_jim's statement, I believe mr.Delusibeta is mostly correct, no.2 seems a bit too simplified, but then again without looking at the code they used I can't really comment in any detail.
 

Shooree

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Had to make an account just in order to reply to this thread. Before I begin, I'd like to thank LordZ and Seldon for their very civil and informative inputs, which have made my morning coffee ritual that much more entertaining.

I, however, would like to turn the spotlight to a somewhat different issue, which has been blatantly overlooked for the most part by previous commenters. Some backstory first: I live in SEE, a largely non-existent market for the games industry (our stores have only started stocking original games in the last 3-4 years). Yet I have been a hardcore gamer for the better part of the last 20 years. To say that I (and the rest of the society here) have been indulging in pirating would be a serious understatement. There is (or rather, was) no other option, besides buying originals once every 3-4 years when you got the Get Out Of Jail Free card (otherwise known as the travelling visa). So yes, in the past 20-odd years I've bought 4 original PC games. 3 of those were bought in the mid 90's, and the last one was Mass Effect, some two years back.

Now, to the meat of my argument: I cannot possibly start to describe my disappointment with what has happened to boxed editions of games. For all intents and purposes, I came right out of a time capsule form the 1994's issue of Dark Suns 2: Wake of the Ravager, with it's extensive and exquisitely written manual, a bestiary that I took with myself and studyed for two years untill my mind boggled. The box itself was something a kid would proudly put on a shelf and covet.

So there I am at a Virgin store on Oxford St, London, looking at the hyped up ME. I fork out the cash and rush home. I open the "box" (look how slim it was, I wondered). My eyes widen in disbelief. It's a 4-page quickstart guide and a measily disc. OH MY GOD. Where is my... my stuff? I fully expected a host of memorabilia and lore to be found in tangible form, together with the game, just like it used to be with Loom, Descent, Dark Sun and Rebel Assault (the entirety of my original gaming shelf).

Having studied marketing and advertising, I am fully aware that what I have experienced as the usual practice in boxed game retail is now considered to be a 20$ extra, as in Gold, Platinum, Kryptonite editions and what have you. As a hardcore gamer with a considerable experience under my belt, I can also compare the experiences and periceved quality of these newer games and make a (rather biased) judgment that they are watered down, poorly written, mass produced crap fests of special effects.

But enough of that. What I am convolutely saying, as a sort of a time traveller that I am, is that today's games aren't worth it, IMHO. For all the environmentalist BS about saving trees by not printing manuals, they've taken away what I considered essential to gaming - immersion, and spent that money to produce often meaningless prettier visuals and expensive advertising campaigns. The issue is much more complicated than "mean suits ruining my hobby", of course. Going digital has its sacrifices and the coveted manual seems to be one of them. The western society, vting with their wallets, decided that added-value items (lovely boxes and extra content) can go away, by bying games that didn't feature it, except in the Gold Edition form.

In a sense, the publishing business has stabbed itself in the back by taking on this approach: by pursuing cost savings described above, they have stripped their products of the intrinsic qualities that made having an original game a must, for any serious gamer. So, comes the DRM, which in itself is not a solution to the original problem, but rather a sloppy band-aid on the wound.

tl;dr
Gaming as a hobby is suffering from a rapidly spreading disease of low quality goods, stripped completely of what had made them wanted in the first place. Artificial hype building through marketing activities can only account for so much, therefore measures like DRM are introduced in order to cope with the diminishing returns. In my view, all boxed games need to come with more added value, as they once did. Pirating would still occur, but the memorabillia would make it obligatory for anyone who is a true fan to actually own the original.
 

Zersy

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Pirates are always going to be around, you can't get rid fo them, you can only slow them down or re direct them but either way there here to stay.
 

Delusibeta

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Mar 7, 2010
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I accept that my analysis of WoG's 90% may be overly simplified, and 2D Boy themselves worked on it harder and came up with a figure of 82%, which I can't see a glaring hole in. But 2D Boy also quoted Riochet: Infinity's analysis over their piracy rate, and that they estimate that for every 1000 pirates stopped, they would have got 1 extra sale. Call me optimistic if you like, but I imagine that the sales generated per 1000 successful pirates would be more than one.

Of course, if you've pissed off the wider PC gaming community like Ubisoft have done, that last sentance won't apply.

In brief, anti-piracy measures are a waste of time, and the extra sales generated before the protection is cracked will never make up for your investment. Unless you're Valve, of course.
 

Spiterider

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honestly i think DRM is a waste of time, people who like games enough tend to buy them, i know plenty of people who get pirated versions of the game just to see whether or not they like it, then if they do they will by the regular version when it gets to a decent price range, but to be more honest, if DRM must exist i think blizzard has found a better way with their Battle.net CD-Key system, which applies to them being used online but single player games still play fine without registration. install all you want, just cant have two people play the same key online at the same time. basically if you make pc games, sell them with some form of online play that people will want, then give them the ability to play single wherever so there friends can taste it. and when they get into it they will buy the real game to play online. bobs your uncle your making profit, and to increase that profit push out online only additions to games that require download from your online account. or perhaps just sell little bits of crack seperatly that people who play your game cant live without. like some celestial horse. frackin $25 for it and i see it everywhere. craziness. *i must have one...*
 

Dr_Steve_Brule

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Cynical skeptic said:
Dr_Steve_Brule said:
Could you please link me to the article?
I would love to see that argument.
Edit: is it this article?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_245/7285-Steam-A-Monopoly-In-the-Making
If so, I don't see the way it counters steam.
That or a corruption of this [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/6452-Experienced-Points-Online-Activation-Is-a-Ripoff].

But "monopoles (or x) are bad therefor anything similar to a monopoly (or x) is bad" is the basic gist of the anti-steam sentiment in these parts. Also, something about "gamer's rights." I can't even figure out where that came from.

I assumed (ass out of me, not u) the argument came from somewhere, rather than simply being a corruption mixed with general animosity towards steam.
Yeah, Well, steam is not a monopoly.
Just because it's big does not mean it is a monopoly.
Edit: From what I can see, steam is getting praised here.
Evidence-"Steam isn't just an activation server, it's a universal backup for all your Steam games, it offers "free weekends" for popular titles, seamless matchmaking, friend lists, social networking, in-game chat, achievements, high-speed access to demos, and automated headache-free patching. It's got more features than Xbox live, and it's free. Yes, Steam does require you to register your game, but they give you a whole lot of features and freebies in return."
 

theultimateend

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Well the fallacy still remains that pirates are customers.

You could stop piracy tomorrow and sales wouldn't change in any statistically significant fashion.

They are fighting for sales that don't exist and losing sales that do. It isn't more complicated than that.

Because the sales they DO get from pirates are sales they WOULD have gotten with or without DRM. You don't get sales because people buckle and buy your game, you get sales because people want to play it. The problem is developers make shiny shit and then think the world has betrayed them if every single person doesn't buy it.

Now people can argue 'morality' or something along that nature. But just strictly speaking about sales, there is nothing to gain from DRM because there is literally nothing lost from piracy. If you stop piracy people just won't play your games at all which doesn't earn you a single cent more it just makes you 'feel better'.

PS. I don't pirate, I'm just not retarded, which is how I deduced this painfully obvious reality.