Impossible (to beat) DRM

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Cynical skeptic

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m_jim said:
When you talk about the indie developers, that brings me back to the sad example set by World of Goo. The wonderful, creative little game was released by a small studio with no DRM on a "pay what you want" basis. It was a remarkable show of good faith toward the gaming community. The result? Piracy rates over 90% [http://www.joystiq.com/2009/01/30/world-of-goo-publisher-files-for-bankruptcy/] and the company has to file for bankruptcy.

If anything, small independent studios have more to lose from piracy because one failed game can mean the end.
You know whats funny about everyone with their ass in the air about the war crimes against 2D boy? They came to that conclusion by comparing sales to connections to the online leaderboard thing. The actual percentage was 82%. around 300-400 thousand people connected to the online leaderboard... thing. Which means 2D boy made between 1.35 and 1.8 million dollars off world of goo. A game that was developed primarily as entry into a contest (tower of goo) which it won.

Whats even better, is if you ever cite a small independent venture praising [http://www.rlslog.net/piracy-isnt-that-bad-and-they-know-it/] piracy, "oh well thats just one isolated incident."
 

IanPrice

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Negative reinforcement doesn't work. Punishment doesn't work. That's not how it works when you're trying to sell something.

You have to bribe your customers to pay you. Sometimes this is literal - money-back on a registered purchase, for example. Often it is figurative - downloaded benefits which are free, but inaccessible without a registered purchase.

This sort of tactic would be easy and inexpensive and far more effective than stomping out the free advertising of the people who know about the game because they heard about it from a player who happened not to have paid for it.
 

Carnagath

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Shamus Young said:
Experienced Points: Impossible (to beat) DRM

Congratulations, Ubisoft, on making DRM so awful that it might eventually work.

Read Full Article
I can verify from a friend (since I am a console gamer) that there is a fully functional cracked version of AC2 out. Everything works and he is halfway through Venice. What's funny is that my friend had saved money to buy AC2, but when he heard about the DRM he decided not to do it and wait for a cracked version, if and when it came out. I expect that now that the pirates have some experience with this DRM, cracks for future games of the kind will come out much sooner.
 

Delusibeta

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m_jim said:
When you talk about the indie developers, that brings me back to the sad example set by World of Goo. The wonderful, creative little game was released by a small studio with no DRM on a "pay what you want" basis. It was a remarkable show of good faith toward the gaming community. The result? Piracy rates over 90% [http://www.joystiq.com/2009/01/30/world-of-goo-publisher-files-for-bankruptcy/] and the company PUBLISHER has to file for bankruptcy.

If anything, small independent studios have more to lose from piracy because one failed game can mean the end.
Three problems with that statement.
1) The "pay anything you want" thing was a special promotion to celebrate the first anniversary of the game's release.
2) That piracy rate was calculated by counting the number of IP addresses against the number of sales. So if you have a dynamic IP, you get counted as a pirate. Likewise, if I install it on a laptop and go to a McDonalds and play it there, I would be counted as a pirate.
3) It was the publisher that closed down. And I think the publisher was redundant for World of Goo: 2D Boy self-published the US version pretty much everywhere, including getting it on OnLive. The publisher deal was made for the aborted EU version, and the EU folk got the US version several weeks late, and for the retail version. While it's heartening to see a large number of indies go retail (e.g. Audiosurf, Zeno Clash, Machineium, Killing Floor) it usually only happens months after the digital release, and I doubt the retail sales would compare to that digital release. Besides, there's 1001 possible reasons why the publisher went bust (dodgy deals, people buying it direct from the developers, strikes, etc. etc.). I doubt that piracy was a major factor in the publisher going bust.
 

zakski

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dogstile said:
zakski said:
Seldon2639 said:
[Needs Citation]. Show me the abundance of indie games which get pirated equivalent to the big-label games, and I'll accept I lost the bet. Bear in mind that I'm referring to absolute numbers, not percentages. Show me the indie game with a million downloads off of torrent, and I'll bow out. So, the 92% piracy rate for Ricochet Infinity doesn't mean much. I don't have the total number of players/pirates, but given that it's the 8,484th most popular game on Amazon tells me that its sales are low.

So, find me an indie game which had half the total number of pirated copies as Spore, and I'll back down. Until then, piracy for indie games is less of a problem because fewer people play them anyway...

Or it is a big problem, and the earlier poster's comments about the developers not caring and not having as much of a problem is false, and pirates are bastards even to those companies who attempt to not screw people with DRM.

Kind of says something, that Richochet Infinity (without DRM) had a piracy rate above 90%, doesn't it? Something in the neck of the woods of "pirates are greedy bastards, rather than people who don't like DRM", eh?

Oh, and you really like making statements of fact without any basis in reality, don't you?
World of Goo
Can somebody please get a different game for people to bring up. ONE GAME DOES NOT EQUAL EVERY GAME. PERIOD. END OF. OVER.
You sit. He asked for one game, one indie game that was pirated in comparable numbers to spore. The fact that said game does not appeal to you or that you are sick of hearing about it does not matter to him. Also its a given that, one game != every game for games > 1, so unless you have only recently got a computer that can play more than just pong, stop trolling and posting inflammatory statements on an already hot topic.

As for m_jim's statement, I believe mr.Delusibeta is mostly correct, no.2 seems a bit too simplified, but then again without looking at the code they used I can't really comment in any detail.
 

Shooree

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Had to make an account just in order to reply to this thread. Before I begin, I'd like to thank LordZ and Seldon for their very civil and informative inputs, which have made my morning coffee ritual that much more entertaining.

I, however, would like to turn the spotlight to a somewhat different issue, which has been blatantly overlooked for the most part by previous commenters. Some backstory first: I live in SEE, a largely non-existent market for the games industry (our stores have only started stocking original games in the last 3-4 years). Yet I have been a hardcore gamer for the better part of the last 20 years. To say that I (and the rest of the society here) have been indulging in pirating would be a serious understatement. There is (or rather, was) no other option, besides buying originals once every 3-4 years when you got the Get Out Of Jail Free card (otherwise known as the travelling visa). So yes, in the past 20-odd years I've bought 4 original PC games. 3 of those were bought in the mid 90's, and the last one was Mass Effect, some two years back.

Now, to the meat of my argument: I cannot possibly start to describe my disappointment with what has happened to boxed editions of games. For all intents and purposes, I came right out of a time capsule form the 1994's issue of Dark Suns 2: Wake of the Ravager, with it's extensive and exquisitely written manual, a bestiary that I took with myself and studyed for two years untill my mind boggled. The box itself was something a kid would proudly put on a shelf and covet.

So there I am at a Virgin store on Oxford St, London, looking at the hyped up ME. I fork out the cash and rush home. I open the "box" (look how slim it was, I wondered). My eyes widen in disbelief. It's a 4-page quickstart guide and a measily disc. OH MY GOD. Where is my... my stuff? I fully expected a host of memorabilia and lore to be found in tangible form, together with the game, just like it used to be with Loom, Descent, Dark Sun and Rebel Assault (the entirety of my original gaming shelf).

Having studied marketing and advertising, I am fully aware that what I have experienced as the usual practice in boxed game retail is now considered to be a 20$ extra, as in Gold, Platinum, Kryptonite editions and what have you. As a hardcore gamer with a considerable experience under my belt, I can also compare the experiences and periceved quality of these newer games and make a (rather biased) judgment that they are watered down, poorly written, mass produced crap fests of special effects.

But enough of that. What I am convolutely saying, as a sort of a time traveller that I am, is that today's games aren't worth it, IMHO. For all the environmentalist BS about saving trees by not printing manuals, they've taken away what I considered essential to gaming - immersion, and spent that money to produce often meaningless prettier visuals and expensive advertising campaigns. The issue is much more complicated than "mean suits ruining my hobby", of course. Going digital has its sacrifices and the coveted manual seems to be one of them. The western society, vting with their wallets, decided that added-value items (lovely boxes and extra content) can go away, by bying games that didn't feature it, except in the Gold Edition form.

In a sense, the publishing business has stabbed itself in the back by taking on this approach: by pursuing cost savings described above, they have stripped their products of the intrinsic qualities that made having an original game a must, for any serious gamer. So, comes the DRM, which in itself is not a solution to the original problem, but rather a sloppy band-aid on the wound.

tl;dr
Gaming as a hobby is suffering from a rapidly spreading disease of low quality goods, stripped completely of what had made them wanted in the first place. Artificial hype building through marketing activities can only account for so much, therefore measures like DRM are introduced in order to cope with the diminishing returns. In my view, all boxed games need to come with more added value, as they once did. Pirating would still occur, but the memorabillia would make it obligatory for anyone who is a true fan to actually own the original.
 

Zersy

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Pirates are always going to be around, you can't get rid fo them, you can only slow them down or re direct them but either way there here to stay.
 

Delusibeta

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I accept that my analysis of WoG's 90% may be overly simplified, and 2D Boy themselves worked on it harder and came up with a figure of 82%, which I can't see a glaring hole in. But 2D Boy also quoted Riochet: Infinity's analysis over their piracy rate, and that they estimate that for every 1000 pirates stopped, they would have got 1 extra sale. Call me optimistic if you like, but I imagine that the sales generated per 1000 successful pirates would be more than one.

Of course, if you've pissed off the wider PC gaming community like Ubisoft have done, that last sentance won't apply.

In brief, anti-piracy measures are a waste of time, and the extra sales generated before the protection is cracked will never make up for your investment. Unless you're Valve, of course.
 

Spiterider

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honestly i think DRM is a waste of time, people who like games enough tend to buy them, i know plenty of people who get pirated versions of the game just to see whether or not they like it, then if they do they will by the regular version when it gets to a decent price range, but to be more honest, if DRM must exist i think blizzard has found a better way with their Battle.net CD-Key system, which applies to them being used online but single player games still play fine without registration. install all you want, just cant have two people play the same key online at the same time. basically if you make pc games, sell them with some form of online play that people will want, then give them the ability to play single wherever so there friends can taste it. and when they get into it they will buy the real game to play online. bobs your uncle your making profit, and to increase that profit push out online only additions to games that require download from your online account. or perhaps just sell little bits of crack seperatly that people who play your game cant live without. like some celestial horse. frackin $25 for it and i see it everywhere. craziness. *i must have one...*
 

Dr_Steve_Brule

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Cynical skeptic said:
Dr_Steve_Brule said:
Could you please link me to the article?
I would love to see that argument.
Edit: is it this article?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_245/7285-Steam-A-Monopoly-In-the-Making
If so, I don't see the way it counters steam.
That or a corruption of this [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/6452-Experienced-Points-Online-Activation-Is-a-Ripoff].

But "monopoles (or x) are bad therefor anything similar to a monopoly (or x) is bad" is the basic gist of the anti-steam sentiment in these parts. Also, something about "gamer's rights." I can't even figure out where that came from.

I assumed (ass out of me, not u) the argument came from somewhere, rather than simply being a corruption mixed with general animosity towards steam.
Yeah, Well, steam is not a monopoly.
Just because it's big does not mean it is a monopoly.
Edit: From what I can see, steam is getting praised here.
Evidence-"Steam isn't just an activation server, it's a universal backup for all your Steam games, it offers "free weekends" for popular titles, seamless matchmaking, friend lists, social networking, in-game chat, achievements, high-speed access to demos, and automated headache-free patching. It's got more features than Xbox live, and it's free. Yes, Steam does require you to register your game, but they give you a whole lot of features and freebies in return."
 

theultimateend

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Well the fallacy still remains that pirates are customers.

You could stop piracy tomorrow and sales wouldn't change in any statistically significant fashion.

They are fighting for sales that don't exist and losing sales that do. It isn't more complicated than that.

Because the sales they DO get from pirates are sales they WOULD have gotten with or without DRM. You don't get sales because people buckle and buy your game, you get sales because people want to play it. The problem is developers make shiny shit and then think the world has betrayed them if every single person doesn't buy it.

Now people can argue 'morality' or something along that nature. But just strictly speaking about sales, there is nothing to gain from DRM because there is literally nothing lost from piracy. If you stop piracy people just won't play your games at all which doesn't earn you a single cent more it just makes you 'feel better'.

PS. I don't pirate, I'm just not retarded, which is how I deduced this painfully obvious reality.
 

Freemon

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Pirating communities are not made by 5 nerds sitting in front of their PCs. During the 2st week there was a work around for Ubisoft's DRM, which required save games after certain checkpoints. On the second week the communities were flooded by save games from players and crackers - some even organized into tidy lists and databases. on the 3rd week there was a crack with all the save games compiled (but still with a few bugs). Few days ago a crack was released. fully working, among the thousands who already tried it, only a few complains of bugs or crashes.

Should Developers find even more evil DRMs to protect their games? If they want to kill the industry, yes. Should they treat their costumers like thiefs? If they want to kill the industry, yes.

As someone who works on an electronics store, I felt personally the effects of this kind of DRM. The game sold well at first. Then angry customers came back with their games because they were mad they couldn't play it properly. They fell on us, we didn't warn them how the DRM worked. We also couldn't do any refunds. (pc game policy, we only refund console games). The result of all this was a long list of complains on the complains book, a bad image for our store, and a huge red sticker on each assassins creed 2 case, warning about the DRM. We sold 31 copies on the first week. We sold 3 more on the next 4. My boss doesn't want to see any more ubisoft games. They just take up shelf space and cause problems.
 

Dogstile

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zakski said:
dogstile said:
zakski said:
Seldon2639 said:
[Needs Citation]. Show me the abundance of indie games which get pirated equivalent to the big-label games, and I'll accept I lost the bet. Bear in mind that I'm referring to absolute numbers, not percentages. Show me the indie game with a million downloads off of torrent, and I'll bow out. So, the 92% piracy rate for Ricochet Infinity doesn't mean much. I don't have the total number of players/pirates, but given that it's the 8,484th most popular game on Amazon tells me that its sales are low.

So, find me an indie game which had half the total number of pirated copies as Spore, and I'll back down. Until then, piracy for indie games is less of a problem because fewer people play them anyway...

Or it is a big problem, and the earlier poster's comments about the developers not caring and not having as much of a problem is false, and pirates are bastards even to those companies who attempt to not screw people with DRM.

Kind of says something, that Richochet Infinity (without DRM) had a piracy rate above 90%, doesn't it? Something in the neck of the woods of "pirates are greedy bastards, rather than people who don't like DRM", eh?

Oh, and you really like making statements of fact without any basis in reality, don't you?
World of Goo
Can somebody please get a different game for people to bring up. ONE GAME DOES NOT EQUAL EVERY GAME. PERIOD. END OF. OVER.
You sit. He asked for one game, one indie game that was pirated in comparable numbers to spore. The fact that said game does not appeal to you or that you are sick of hearing about it does not matter to him. Also its a given that, one game != every game for games > 1, so unless you have only recently got a computer that can play more than just pong, stop trolling and posting inflammatory statements on an already hot topic.

As for m_jim's statement, I believe mr.Delusibeta is mostly correct, no.2 seems a bit too simplified, but then again without looking at the code they used I can't really comment in any detail.
Trolling? You think that was trolling? If I was trolling I would have insulted you. Stop being all high and mighty over this. I'm just annoyed because everyone says world of goo. That was one game. Its annoying as hell that one game gets quoted all the time for a certain subject because it makes the whole argument seem silly if everyone only has one source.

Me, trolling, pah. As much of an idiot and big headed git it makes me seem like, look at my post count or my recent posts and decide if i'm likely a troll or just trying to get people to bring up different points than age old ones.
 

zakski

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dogstile said:
zakski said:
You sit. He asked for one game, one indie game that was pirated in comparable numbers to spore. The fact that said game does not appeal to you or that you are sick of hearing about it does not matter to him. Also its a given that, one game != every game for games > 1, so unless you have only recently got a computer that can play more than just pong, stop trolling and posting inflammatory statements on an already hot topic.
Trolling? You think that was trolling? If I was trolling I would have insulted you. Stop being all high and mighty over this. I'm just annoyed because everyone says world of goo. That was one game. Its annoying as hell that one game gets quoted all the time for a certain subject because it makes the whole argument seem silly if everyone only has one source.

Me, trolling, pah. As much of an idiot and big headed git it makes me seem like, look at my post count or my recent posts and decide if i'm likely a troll or just trying to get people to bring up different points than age old ones.
Firstly post count doesn't matter, I lurk alot, since '08 in facty.

Secondly I was rather aggressively pointing out that just because your "annoyed because everyone says world of goo"; the person I was original replying to seemed to have not heard of it (which in itself is criminal).

If you had wanted me to bring up a different heavily pirated indie game; you could probably do a lot better than an all CAPS LOCK rage blast, just asking would have worked - Thats why I would call you a troll.
 

Dogstile

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zakski said:
dogstile said:
zakski said:
You sit. He asked for one game, one indie game that was pirated in comparable numbers to spore. The fact that said game does not appeal to you or that you are sick of hearing about it does not matter to him. Also its a given that, one game != every game for games > 1, so unless you have only recently got a computer that can play more than just pong, stop trolling and posting inflammatory statements on an already hot topic.
Trolling? You think that was trolling? If I was trolling I would have insulted you. Stop being all high and mighty over this. I'm just annoyed because everyone says world of goo. That was one game. Its annoying as hell that one game gets quoted all the time for a certain subject because it makes the whole argument seem silly if everyone only has one source.

Me, trolling, pah. As much of an idiot and big headed git it makes me seem like, look at my post count or my recent posts and decide if i'm likely a troll or just trying to get people to bring up different points than age old ones.
Firstly post count doesn't matter, I lurk alot, since '08 in facty.

Secondly I was rather aggressively pointing out that just because your "annoyed because everyone says world of goo"; the person I was original replying to seemed to have not heard of it (which in itself is criminal).

If you had wanted me to bring up a different heavily pirated indie game; you could probably do a lot better than an all CAPS LOCK rage blast, just asking would have worked - Thats why I would call you a troll.
I lurked since 08 too, i'm just saying, the way I determine if someones a troll or just ticked off is post count or recent posts.

The caps lock thing, I do that to draw attention. Think a sign with big flashing letters and me jumping around pointing at it while the rest of the writings in smaller print behind it. Thats roughly what I use caps for. And since when did using caps make people trolls? Seriously?

Also, if you're going to comment on a sentence, you can at least comment on all of it. "look at my post count or my recent posts"
 

zakski

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dogstile said:
I lurked since 08 too, i'm just saying, the way I determine if someones a troll or just ticked off is post count or recent posts.

The caps lock thing, I do that to draw attention. Think a sign with big flashing letters and me jumping around pointing at it while the rest of the writings in smaller print behind it. Thats roughly what I use caps for. And since when did using caps make people trolls? Seriously?

Also, if you're going to comment on a sentence, you can at least comment on all of it. "look at my post count or my recent posts"
recent posts are a little skewed due the fact by now at least two of them are replies to me, two are about being plastered and one is about first kisses. not the best threads to judge someone on, so I left them out of my last post on the basis of not enough viable information.

Its not caps itself, but excessive cap usage and the fact it was more of a rant. Also this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/6408927/Internet-rules-and-laws-the-top-10-from-Godwin-to-Poe.html no. 10 on the list

Anywhoo I hate DRM because it drives up game prices
 

Dogstile

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zakski said:
dogstile said:
I lurked since 08 too, i'm just saying, the way I determine if someones a troll or just ticked off is post count or recent posts.

The caps lock thing, I do that to draw attention. Think a sign with big flashing letters and me jumping around pointing at it while the rest of the writings in smaller print behind it. Thats roughly what I use caps for. And since when did using caps make people trolls? Seriously?

Also, if you're going to comment on a sentence, you can at least comment on all of it. "look at my post count or my recent posts"
recent posts are a little skewed due the fact by now at least two of them are replies to me, two are about being plastered and one is about first kisses. not the best threads to judge someone on, so I left them out of my last post on the basis of not enough viable information.

Its not caps itself, but excessive cap usage and the fact it was more of a rant. Also this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/6408927/Internet-rules-and-laws-the-top-10-from-Godwin-to-Poe.html no. 10 on the list

Anywhoo I hate DRM because it drives up game prices
I know the rules, college ensures I read those daily. I don't really care, It has the effect I am after most of the time anyway. That's what counts right? :p

That DRM is awefully skewed and misinformed don't cha think? (Will not respond anymore, argument dead, 2am, me sleepy.)