Ok, I have been quoted to death. Gonna start by reading everything, then snipping so I can reply all at once. Which is gonna be hell on earth with the formatting, but I will try.
Filiecs said:
Mr F. said:
Its arguable that certain acts which evoke instant disgust universally do so for a reason.
But is such disgust universal? If it was universal, then why does incest exist? Also, why are there people who are NOT disgusted by it?
Well, this one is easy: Because people do things which universally disgust other people all the time. One may as well ask why rape or genocide exist (Not that I am equating consensual incest with rape or genocide), people just do shit. Because they enjoy it, because they think that it is right, because morality is subjective (Will expand on that in the end of my post)
Filiecs said:
Our brain is hardwired to find such acts disgusting because they are detrimental to us.
First of all, I assume you mean detrimental in the long run of the human species in an environment of natural selection.
If you are talking about things detrimental to the human species then that would put a lot of fetish's and philias on that list like masochism or electrocution. Also, that argument could potentially be used against homosexuality or asexuality. However it can also be argued that not reproducing is beneficial to society at the moment.
Also, the brain is varying levels of plastic. Wires move and change every day. Even if such a reaction was "hard-wired" at some point in time, the lack of natural selection in our society has inevitably led to a large variety in the gene pool. There are undoubtedly at least thousands of people who wouldn't have that "hard wire" you're talking about.
Well, I am tired so I cannot label the exact theory. And yes, I know my own disgust is similar on some levels to that used by people to argue against homosexuality and asexuality. Honestly, I am very sexually liberal with regards to most things. I have nothing against furries etc. What two people do in the privacy of their own bedroom is there business, but I do hold that incest and pedophilia are exclusions to my rule. I will try and explain that at the end of this post (And yes, I DO equate the two.)
Filiecs said:
Even if you discount any chance of offspring, it is still revolting.
Opinion
This entire thread is about opinions. At no point am I stating anything as objective fact. These are simply my opinions on the matter.
Filiecs said:
Between a parent and child it is revolting due to the power balance and everything else.
That power balance does not need to affect anything. You're just making an assumption that such distances in power (even if there WAS one in said family) would cause trouble in the first place.
Yes, I am, and I will explain that at the end of my post.
Filiecs said:
Between siblings it is slightly less vomit inducing yet it is still disgusting on just about every level.
Opinion
I never stated it was anything OTHER then opinion. I find it disgusting. I find the idea of siblings fucking to be disgusting.
Filiecs said:
I am not talking from a religious standpoint or a genetic standpoint. From a psychological and sociological standpoint, it is revolting.
You still have yet to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt.
And I accept that I cannot prove that beyond reasonable doubt. Its an opinion. It cannot be proved beyond reasonable doubt. It is simply my opinion. I will try and expand at the end.
Filiecs said:
The mere thought of it makes me feel slightly ill.
Evidence that your claim is highly influenced by your opinion.
Which I never denied. Why is it that on this forum people seem to think that EVERY OPINION had is held by someone to be beyond any doubt? I do not think my opinion is universal. I think it is an opinion. So many arguments spawn from people refusing to accept that opinions are just bloody opinions.
Filiecs said:
I mean, I can partially understand it.
Good, a concession.
See above. Its an opinion. I can understand most things, from genocide onwards. I can see the logic behind it, I can see why people do it, I just do not agree with it on any level. Because, in my opinion, it is wrong. Are you seeing a pattern here? xD
Filiecs said:
The bond between parents and their children is unique, as is the bond between siblings. I know I love my sisters more then I could (currently) love a partner. But you love your partners in a very different way. It might still be unconditional love (hopefully) but it is a different kind of love.
You are making a sweeping generalization based on personal experience. What evidence do you have that says that the two types of love MUST be exclusive?
Did I state that it is exclusive? Not really, no. I stated that the love between your partner is different to the love between your siblings. Because, for the vast majority of people, it is. Can I prove that with a statistic? Well, No. Just find a friend with a hot sibling or a hot parent and ask if they like the idea of fucking them. Chances are they will say no. Very very few people seem to actively think about fucking their family members.
Filiecs said:
Finally? There is a reason people sometimes choose not to date their closest friends.
Not everyone believes that is a good reason.
"Sometimes choose not to". I did not state it was a good reason. Personally, I do not think it is a good reason. Then again, I can currently see why it is not a good idea. What with my best friend and I recently going through a breakup that is getting progressively messier as time passes. But that is all subjective and, you know, opinion.
Filiecs said:
Because if it gets fucked up it can destroy friendships. The potential for things to get fucked up if you are fucking your family members is much, MUCH higher and much more destructive.
Frankly, a fucked up relationship is almost always the result of immaturity on one or both sides and the lack of being willing to work things through. Also, there are MANY people who marry their best friends and have been perfectly happy. There are also examples of incestual relationships actually turning out fine.
Yes, sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. A lot of the time it doesn't. Yes, there are examples of people in incestual relationships having a long and happy life fucking their siblings. And good for them. I still find the idea revolting and I still think it is a very bad idea. There are multiple reasons for a relationship fucking up. Not really related to the discussion though, my point still stands.
Filiecs said:
You have yet to prove that there would be any conflict in the first place. You haven't even proven that said conflict would MOST LIKELY happen.
Um. Well. Statistically, it is unlikely that a relationship will work. So conflict is likely to occur. Conflict occurs in working relationships. Conflict is part of life. So conflict is likely. And if it got out it would ruin your life. That is just how things are right now.
This is without even properly going into the subtle power relationship and how much it would fuck things up.
Filiecs said:
I would like to see you go into detail on this.
Will do!
Entitled said:
Mr F. said:
Well, that *is* pretty arguable.
Yes, it is. I cannot remember the term, its been a while since I have studied psychology. To use an example, there is a reason why maggots make us feel ill. They are bad for us, they indicate rot, rotten food, things which can harm us. That is the logic I am using.
Entitled said:
Evolutionary psychology is quite a faulty source for morality.
Opinion! But you are right. Then again, just about every source of morality is faulty if it is your only source of morality.
Entitled said:
Your brain might be hardwired to find incest disturbing, but it's also hardwired to find people who are visibly different from your own monkey tribe revolting.
I disagree.
Entitled said:
Hence, racism. Also, to find sex between different monkey tribes revolting. Hence, interracial sex taboos. You are hardwired to always agree with the alpha male, to ensure the survival of your tribe.
Also, you are hardwired to find the most fertile, youngest post-pubescent teenage girls the most attractive. Hence, ephebophilia.
We are living in a civilization now, we ought to think past these stupid remnants that don't necessarily make sense any more, not encourage them.
Yes and no. Yes, with regards to interracial sex taboos and all of that shit. Yes, with regards to the very concept of race. No with regards to incest, bestiality and pedophilia.
Entitled said:
Mr F. said:
That's not a biological problem, but a social one.
Yes, it is.
Entitled said:
The idea that a relationship where you are bumping uglies is somehow more likely to "get fucked up" than one where you don't, is entirely caused by sex taboos.
I disagree. More emotions are usually involved, sex complicates things. Not due to social taboos, but due to the endorphins and hormones involved, due to the vulnerability, due to two people having different sex drives etc etc etc.
Entitled said:
It's a bit like saying that we shouldn't allow gays to adopt children, because they would be bullied in school for it.
Yes, it is, although I would never argue that.
Entitled said:
Which is technicaly true, but there is no fundamental reason for it to be that way to begin with, so it's a problem to be solved, not a barrier. Rather than limiting ourselves, it's more moral to create a world where gay parents' children don't get bullied, even if it's harder.
I agree, and that is a world we should strive towards. However, I do not hold that we should strive towards the acceptance of incest.
Right, now the thing which people wanted me to elaborate on.
Power relationships in families are weird. Every-ones family is unique, yes, but in MOST cases, the parents have the most power and the children have the least. There is a distinct hierarchy present. The same reasoning as to why teachers should not fuck their students applies here. Power relationships, a position of care. It is frowned upon because people are on different levels, that the opportunity for exploitation is HUGE.
Now, is this just societal? Well, Yes, Yes it is. Is it a problem though? In my eyes, No.
People with power fucking people without it should always be frowned upon, should always be stopped where possible.
I simply do not think it is possible to have a healthy romantic relationship with a family member. I simply do not. Yes, you can state that some people do. And that's great for those people. But they, in my eyes, are the outliers. The exceptions. Not the majority.
Now, should something be ruled against just because in the majority of cases it is bad? Well, Technically no. That is referred to as the Tyranny of the Majority, and it is a major problem in some democracies. But much like it is technically possible for someone who is 12 to have a totally and utterly consensual relationship with someone who is 19 does not mean that should be legal. That is an exception. It is possible, but unlikely.
That is the view I have. Personally, Incest revolts me. I accepted that this is just an opinion. It obviously does not revolt you (Although... Part of me, call it the cynic, thinks it is *not* revolting you because you feel like you must argue that it is totally fine because doing so is part of being liberal, accepting just about anything. Call me a cynic if you will.). But I think it is unhealthy to accept incest, pedophilia or bestiality. Because I rank them all the same.
Exploiting someone, or something, that does not have the same power as you. It is wrong. A prison guard should not fuck a prisoner, no matter how consensual it is.
Now it gets different when ages change. And when it is siblings and not parents. I can see the argument that there is nothing wrong with, say, two siblings fucking once they are in their 20's. Because its none of our business etc etc etc. But...
The idea is unhealthy.
Sorry.
We are programmed to find other people outside of our family units to partner up with. Hell, I am no evolutionary biologist but it is rather easy to argue that homosexuality is evolutionarily selected for (A humans primary purpose is not to breed, if it was the menopause would kill because they would now be dead weight. You want me to get into my theory on that matter, PM me, it doesn't have a place here.). But my point is simple, we are supposed to find people outside of our units to live with.
Its what we do. Its what the vast majority do. You get the idea.
For fear of insulting anyone, I find the idea that you are making the decision that your sexual partner should be someone directly related to you to be a sign that you are mentally ill. End of. If you cannot form that kind of connection with someone outside of your family you have issues. You need to get out a lot more. If there are not people around, you need to move.
