Is porn sexist? Yes, but so what?

[Rainforce]

Pornography reinforces the idea that women and women's bodies exist for male pleasure

I am sorry, but I don't believe that most people can't distinguish between a fictional setting with fictional characters and reality. I can also not imagine that every person who watched porn that (for example) included a man raping a women on the street will think that it works like that when he goes to work later that day. (or something)
There is actually a thing called "common sense" in most humans that tells them that the things they see on TV is probably not very applicable to the things that happen outside of it. (unless you have news/etc. of course)
Point is: you ignore the fact that the human brain can distinguish fiction from reality. I also know for a fact that all people I talked to about the issue (friends, of course) stated that they don't even want to know/meet/etc. any of the individuals that come up in their porn, plus would probably avoid it/run away when an RL scenario would match that of their porn. Because it would be weird as hell.

NOTE: I am asexual, and talked to male and female friends about the matter. And overall I think that most humans think of each other, reagardless of gender, as people like themselves, and not something that doesn't have any personality and only exist to bring pleasure to the other gender.

 

[SpAc3man]

There is such a thing as female friendly porn. X Art comes to mind. It is pretty good too.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

You're right; the whole point of pornography is the objectification and degradation of women for the sexual fulfillment of men. Pornography exists to render women as disembodied cunts or tits or ass instead of human beings with which one can enter into a mutual, respectful relationship with. It gives support and encouragement to violent and abusive male fantasies that inform the way gender dynamics in the modern world work. It sends the message that male sexual pleasure is far more important than female sexual pleasure, or even female self-esteem and value and worth.

And if you don't see why that's a bad thing, then I don't have much to say to you.

Anyone who has both A) got their head screwed on straight and B) has been (or is) in a normal sexual relationship with a partner will tell you that porn becomes farce comedy afterwards as it bears little to no relation or resemblance to actual sex unless both partners are gymnasts and adventurous ones at that.

I'll freely admit that most porn is dross, its McDonald's: cheap, nasty and fills a space for about half an hour but honestly, the only thing that rustles my jimmies about porn is that I just cannot dig a scene where one (or more) of the parties isn't enjoying themselves.

Sex is, and probably always will be, the single most enjoyable thing you can do on this Earth without the aid of booze or firearms. So it bugs me that there is this idea that us fella's only want to enjoy ourselves not our partners as well. If all you want is to please yourself, have a wank, but to me the mark of a considerate lover is one for whom mutual pleasure is a priority. That's the kind of porn I want to see more of, mutual and consensual and enjoyable.

 

[Playful Pony]

I'm not bothered by porn generally... It's around so people can go "mmh, sexy" and play with themselevs, without having to look at the girl next door undressing by the window... This is why I never undress by a window!

I'm not even willing to call porn sexist to be honest, I don't think it fits with it's definition. It's just... Sex. Kinda weird sex between people that for some reason decided being in porn wasn't such a bad idea! Who are we to judge? It's not like many of these fetishes typical in porn isn't common amongst women, I have female friends who are dying to be with several men at a time, and get all of their 'love'... It's just sex and fetishes. Perfectly normal, extremely common...

Somehow I doubt that's what Spongebob had in mind...

I think thats exactly what Spongebob had in mind! We all know he has a thing for the seacucumbers!

 

[Thaluikhain]

Pornography reinforces the idea that women and women's bodies exist for male pleasure

I am sorry, but I don't believe that most people can't distinguish between a fictional setting with fictional characters and reality. I can also not imagine that every person who watched porn that (for example) included a man raping a women on the street will think that it works like that when he goes to work later that day. (or something)
There is actually a thing called "common sense" in most humans that tells them that the things they see on TV is probably not very applicable to the things that happen outside of it. (unless you have news/etc. of course)
Point is: you ignore the fact that the human brain can distinguish fiction from reality. I also know for a fact that all people I talked to about the issue (friends, of course) stated that they don't even want to know/meet/etc. any of the individuals that come up in their porn, plus would probably avoid it/run away when an RL scenario would match that of their porn. Because it would be weird as hell.

Unfortunately, there are large amounts of people that use porn as sex education. You have lots of women getting labiaplasties done because they feel abnormal in that they don't look like pornstars, porn popularised shaving/waxing, and ensures that women are "obliged" to have anal sex.

Hell, people learn their science from Star Trek, juries have to be told that courts aren't like CSI because they kept acquitting suspects due to lack of magic machines proving them guilty, people around the world quote US laws and dialling 911 in emergencies instead whatever their own nation uses because that's what they see on TV.

People absolutely could, and should be able to distinguish between what they see on TV, and reality. But far too many of them won't.

 

[Rainforce]

Unfortunately, there are large amounts of people that use porn as sex education. You have lots of women getting labiaplasties done because they feel abnormal in that they don't look like pornstars, porn popularised shaving/waxing, and ensures that women are "obliged" to have anal sex.

Hell, people learn their science from Star Trek, juries have to be told that courts aren't like CSI because they kept acquitting suspects due to lack of magic machines proving them guilty, people around the world quote US laws and dialling 911 in emergencies instead whatever their own nation uses because that's what they see on TV.

People absolutely could, and should be able to distinguish between what they see on TV, and reality. But far too many of them won't.

hm, crap, you might be right about this one. probably just having luck with my friends >_>
but oh well, a man can dream (about a better and more reasonable world, not porn, of course)

 

[Spinozaad]

I stated my opinions in an earlier post but let me recap:

Pornography reinforces the idea that women and women's bodies exist for male pleasure; it expresses openly a larger cultural emphasis on male pleasure and frames female pleasure as reactive and derivative of male pleasure; and it presents a situation where women happen to love exactly whatever men do - what they do, of course, usually involves things that the vast majority of women actively dislike.

This sounds like a synecdoche, more specifically the pars pro toto. You're substituting a part of the entity for the entirety of the entity. In this case you are equating a select part of pornography with pornography itself. Not to mention the sweeping generalization that (this one particular part of) pornography depicts acts that 'the vast majority of women actively dislike.' It's an unfalsifiable claim.

What, then, of erotica/homosexual (of the female and male kind) pornography/nude images/et cetera?

Not saying YOU'RE WRONG, STFO as the internet wont to do, but there are some counterinterpretations that weaken the absoluteness of your position.

Pornography mirrors the rape culture.

What is the "rape culture"? You seem to assume this concept is self-evident. It isn't, at least not to me.

Now, that doesn't mean that porn is going to turn a strapping young lad into a slobbering monster. But most rapists are not slobbering monsters. They're just men who have been raised to think that violence, control, aggression, and emotional deadness are the appropriate masculine traits - they're men who have been taught that a woman's body is owed to them and that it exists for their pleasure and not for her agency. Those concepts, the glamorization of domination and subjugation, the underlying assumption of constant female consent, and the idealization of women as beings existing for fucking, are all blatantly celebrated in pornography.

Honest question. Does this tell something of the rapist "psyche", or of your opinion on males to separate fantasy from reality? I think the latter.

This, again, doesn't mean that rape is CAUSED by porn. But you also have to admit the obvious, which is that there are certainly different degrees between strapping young lad and slobbering rapist. For every person who rapes, there are ten men who will hear about it and say, "Well, it's a compliment!" or "She was begging for it the way she acted." And before you say anything, yes, those are things that I both hear very often. Pornography legitimizes and sanctions the kind of callous, aggressive, control-oriented, woman-as-thing-to-be-fucked conceptualization of masculinity that inspires, allows, and gives cover to the rape culture.

This isn't obvious at all. I find it rather hard to believe. I have never heard anything like this. Anecdotal evidence is no evidence at all. "Pornography" does no such thing. One could argue that the (extremely) hardcore porn might suggest such behaviour, but that's only part (remember the synecdoche) of the entirety of pornographic material.

And in the end, no matter what it does, I think men are going to relate to women, whether professionally, personally, or sexually, if they don't go home from those interactions and watch two men vaginally and anally penetrate a 19 year-old, whom they call various abusive names, before ejaculating on her face and in her mouth. And if I'm somehow crazy for believing that such depictions of women are not completely benign, for being skeptical that a man can watch a woman be brutalized, choked, slapped, verbally harassed, and sexually exploited, then I'm sorry, but call me crazy.

Again, why the apparent impossibility of men to separate make-believe/fantasy/satire from reality? And even if pornography as a "degenerative effect" on men, then why should this "porno-rape connection" override all other "civilizing" effects in society? The 'porn legitimizes rape' is identical to the argument that 'games make people violent'. Completely not true.

I start to wonder if you are able to separate fact and fantasy in porn. The women in hardcore pornography aren't 'brutalized, choked, slapped, verbally harassed, and sexually exploited'. They're getting paid to participate in a piece of fiction. You might not like it, you might loathe it, but it's not abuse.

"What does it say about our society?s conception of sexuality and masculinity that large numbers of men can find pleasure in watching a young woman gag while a penis is pushed into her throat followed by six men ejaculating on her face and in her mouth?"

I don't think it says anything good at all.

What does it say about our society where millions of women can find pleasure/delight in reading of some female college graduate being the submissive in a softcore BDSM relationship with some eccentric millionaire?

Nothing, but it does says something of the person posing the question.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

Here, have some asexual pron everyone...
Because someone asked:

Oh god that made my day thank you.

"Hey we live like 10 miles from here!"

"Shoulda thought about that before what you did!"

"F**k you!"

"Eff you for disrespectin my marriage!"

I live to serve and protect [sub]everyone from the stupidity and boredom of flame-threads[/sub]

 

[peruvianskys]

This sounds like a synecdoche, more specifically the pars pro toto. You're substituting a part of the entity for the entirety of the entity. In this case you are equating a select part of pornography with pornography itself. Not to mention the sweeping generalization that (this one particular part of) pornography depicts acts that 'the vast majority of women actively dislike.' It's an unfalsifiable claim.

Really, it's an unfalsifiable claim that most women don't like to be ejaculated on my strangers for money? You really want to argue that?

What, then, of erotica/homosexual (of the female and male kind) pornography/nude images/et cetera?

Not particularly interested in it - we're having a conversation about sexism in pornography so I'm interested in discussing porn that involves men and women.

What is the "rape culture"? You seem to assume this concept is self-evident. It isn't, at least not to me.

The rape culture is the culture that leads to roughly 1 out of 3 women around the world being raped. It's the culture of sexual violence and domination that men practice upon women.

Honest question. Does this tell something of the rapist "psyche", or of your opinion on males to separate fantasy from reality? I think the latter.

You cannot deny that pornography has had a specific and destructive influence on the perception of sex in our culture - you only have to look at the rise of labioplasty, as just one tiny example, to see that. You can talk all you want about "fantasy vs. reality" but it's bunk; my experience with porn-using men has shown me pretty fucking across the board that such defensive silliness just doesn't reflect reality.

This isn't obvious at all. I find it rather hard to believe. I have never heard anything like this. Anecdotal evidence is no evidence at all. "Pornography" does no such thing. One could argue that the (extremely) hardcore porn might suggest such behaviour, but that's only part (remember the synecdoche) of the entirety of pornographic material.

What does "extremely hardcore porn" refer to? Because mainstream porn, from producers like Vivid or Digital Sin contain depictions of gangbangs, facials, degrading language, brutalization, domination, and violence. Only the incredibly reactionary, niche markets of "feminist porn" are even TRYING to get out of that approach.

And as for anecdotal evidence, it's not as though I interact with a different breed of man than anyone else; our media landscape is saturated with those type of comments.

Again, why the apparent impossibility of men to separate make-believe/fantasy/satire from reality? And even if pornography as a "degenerative effect" on men, then why should this "porno-rape connection" override all other "civilizing" effects in society? The 'porn legitimizes rape' is identical to the argument that 'games make people violent'. Completely not true.

For a lot of men, it does. I looked at pornography quite a bit as a young man and I certainly never raped anyone. But that doesn't change the fact that a culture in which the sexual objectification of women is considered a recreational activity, even if its a "fantasy," is a culture that cannot possibly respect women.

I start to wonder if you are able to separate fact and fantasy in porn. The women in hardcore pornography aren't 'brutalized, choked, slapped, verbally harassed, and sexually exploited'. They're getting paid to participate in a piece of fiction. You might not like it, you might loathe it, but it's not abuse.

If I made a film where two black men break into a white woman's house, rape her, and then kill her family, at which point a brave Klansmen goes on a hunt to track this black man down and ends up lynching him, could I say "Well it's just a piece of fiction" afterwards when people complained?

Porn is like The Birth of a Nation (if you've seen that film); obviously it's fiction, but what does it say about our culture that we can enjoy even fictionalized accounts of violence and degradation? As I said before, pornography exists because people enjoy watching women be sexually objectified and used and treated as fuckholes - and I think that alone is good enough reason to say that pornography is bad. It plays into those shitty desires. I don't think you can have a healthy view of women if you also enjoy watching them turned from human beings into tools for male pleasure. And if you think you can, well then, the burden of proof is on you to show me how someone can respect and value women while still enjoying the spectacle of six men gagging an 18 year-old and then ejaculating into "her little whore mouth."

I am sorry, but I don't believe that most people can't distinguish between a fictional setting with fictional characters and reality. I can also not imagine that every person who watched porn that (for example) included a man raping a women on the street will think that it works like that when he goes to work later that day. (or something)

Perhaps not, but it does raise the question of why, if he thinks rape is a horrible, shitty thing, he's totally content to jerk off to a video that tries its hardest to recreate it.

There is actually a thing called "common sense" in most humans that tells them that the things they see on TV is probably not very applicable to the things that happen outside of it. (unless you have news/etc. of course)

I'm not arguing that men can't distinguish between reality and fantasy (although the lines get blurred far more often than you think); what I'm arguing is that the very idea that sexual abuse gets men off is fucked up and indicative of a shitty culture.

I also know for a fact that all people I talked to about the issue (friends, of course) stated that they don't even want to know/meet/etc. any of the individuals that come up in their porn, plus would probably avoid it/run away when an RL scenario would match that of their porn. Because it would be weird as hell.

It probably would be weird as hell to interact with someone as a real human being after you've been reducing them to a pleasure tool, sure.

 

[peruvianskys]

Really? You're really going to stand your ground on this?

*sigh*

Watch the trailer for Just Married. I can wait... go on, watch it....

...Oh, you've returned? Notice how Ashton took painful hits to his testicles for COMEDIC purposes? Yeah? Find me a movie that uses unwelcome violent and painful penetration against women for humor. I'll wait, and while you look for just one mainstream example, I'll leave you with a few more from my side of this discussion:

America's Funniest Home Videos: nutshots
YouTube: nutshots
Back to the Future 2: woman inflicts painful nutgrab for comedy
Metal Gear Solid 2: nutshots
Soul Caliber Series: nutshots
John Woo's Stranglehold: Testikill
Planet Terror: melting testicles
Steven Seagal action films of the 90s: nutshots, nutgrapples, occasional other nut-destructions
Recent Piranha movie: half a minute of fish eating a penis

None of those things are dehumanizing, disempowering, or otherwise discriminatory. Being hit in the balls isn't "sexual." It's just physical comedy. Now there are some comedies that have had men being raped by women played for laughs and I think that is shitty and horrible. But being hit in the balls is not analogous to being raped, and if you think it is, then you're so far off the right track that this conversation is over.

And those are just the sexual ones, and only what comes to mind in a half-sleepy daze. Find a mainstream anything that uses forceful and painful penetration against women for entertainment yet?

Yeah, the porn industry. Try about 3,000 films released last year.

As for the other kinds of violence, mostly men. TV, music, video games, men are hacked to pieces, blown up, set on fire, riddled with bullets, hurled through walls, jettisoned into space, dismembered, drowned, wood chippers and meat grinders, predominantly and a great deal more so than women.

Those are male fantasies and they occur in greater numbers because men love to watch it and television/film companies care far more about what men want.

Ball's in your court, cupcake. My advice; quit while I'm ahead.

Oh, you're so cute.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't women prefer to see women being pleasured and associate with that than the men? I'm sure I remember seeing that; I've read enough comments on porn to back that up anyway. The 'female friendly' porn that you get is usually way more sexist than regular porn because it's all tender loving and passionate sex, a pretty sweeping generalisation for what women enjoy.

Porn is too big a category to be called sexist though. The stuff where women are humiliated is pretty misogynistic but there are women who get off on that too. Really porn doesn't give a shit if it's sexist though, and neither does anybody other than white knight cunts; at the end of the day as long as you get where you're going you aren't going to give a shit how you got there.

 

[Something Amyss]

Never really viewed porn as sexist.

After the success of 50 Shades of Grey I think it is safe to say women would rather 'read porn' than 'watch porn'.

It took that long? The trend existed long before 50 shades. Just compare the traffic on erotica sites and porn sites.

 

[Icehearted]

None of those things are dehumanizing, disempowering, or otherwise discriminatory. Being hit in the balls isn't "sexual." It's just physical comedy. Now there are some comedies that have had men being raped by women played for laughs and I think that is shitty and horrible. But being hit in the balls is not analogous to being raped, and if you think it is, then you're so far off the right track that this conversation is over.

Women have internal genitalia, men external. Genitalia, well, here are the experts on words:

gen·i·ta·lia: the organs of the reproductive system; especially : the external genital organs

Medical Definition:
1: generative
2: of, relating to, or being a sexual organ
3a : of, relating to, or characterized by the stage of psychosexual development in psychoanalytic theory following the latency period and during which oral and anal impulses are subordinated to adaptive interpersonal mechanisms b : of, relating to, or characterized by a personality in the genital stage of psychosexual development especially as typified by normal sexual desires and by concern for the happiness and pleasures of others?compare anal 2, oral 3
?gen·i·tal·ly

Last I checked, sexual organs are "sexual", having said organs battered until pain is caused is "disempowering" and that it's something done to men for laughs is "discriminatory". While "being hit in the balls is not analogous to being raped" it is "sexual assault". Look it up, qualifies legally as exactly that.

The rest of your post is just more of the same really difficult to comprehend rhetoric. Porn is mainstream? I don't think that means what you think it means. It's not mainstream, it's "actors" attempt to "go mainstream" all the time (such as Sasha Gray or Jenna Jameson). One could (oddly) attempt argue that it's subjective, and if that's the case I've made non-subjective (and cited and defined) points already, my examples are concrete, deny them all you like, but they are valid, while you've resorted to goading and dismissal of facts, which doesn't give you much ground to stand on. I can't tell if you're a troll of if you really believe this (good luck if you do, bub).

 

[Schadrach]

What else would men masturbate to? That?s exactly what I?m talking about: it?s not made to be thought about. It?s made for you to whack off to. It's just a source of entertainment, no more harmful than the '80s violent action films that made stars out of Arnold Schwarzenegger and Bruce Willis. I could say a similar thing about them promoting violence to young men, existing to do nothing more than titillate their fantasies of wreaking violence on their peers, especially those that had bullied them, and subsequently sending the message than violence and using your fists to solve any problem is okay, because you'll be seen by all as a hero by the end of it anyway.

And...you'd be right? Good job!

Porn is dangerous because men don't think about it. They take in the assumptions, the messages about female sexuality and agency, without thinking about them. That's the problem. If you analyzed pornography deeper than its ability to make you cum, you'd see the shit just below the surface.

Porn is a utilitarian item though. It's not commonly examined for deeper meaning because "to make you cum" is the start and end of it. Much like you don't examine a steak for deeper meanings held within -- you eat it because it fills a need (in that case hunger).

It's worth noting that we only seem to examine masturbatory aids targeted at men when we do these kinds of exercises though. For example, what messages regarding men are provided to women by vibrators? Literal disembodied tireless mechanized robot penises that move in fashions that human being simply don't? Certainly that men are merely objects for their pleasure that will always be ready and willing on command is an obvious message in selling a woman a disembodied penis for masturbatory use, right?

I would ask a variation of the question Relish in Chaos did, though I somehow doubt you'll give a straight answer -- What else would men masturbate to, if not a representation of sexually willing and ready females with an emphasis on the act itself? What kind of masturbatory aid intended for the use of men would you not have a problem with, and could you see such a thing existing and being as usable for the same purpose?

 

[peruvianskys]

Porn is a utilitarian item though. It's not commonly examined for deeper meaning because "to make you cum" is the start and end of it. Much like you don't examine a steak for deeper meanings held within -- you eat it because it fills a need (in that case hunger).

You're right, and that is precisely the problem. When you take something in without examining the deeper implications, you open yourself to those assumptions.

A steak is a great example - if people had to examine and seriously consider the methods used to get them their steak, the effect the production of the steak had on another living creature, and the negative consequences of consumption for themselves and others, far fewer people would be interested in eating steak. But if you willfully suspend deeper analysis in favor of instant sensual gratification, then you don't have to look at what you're really doing.

We need to analyze pornography precisely because most people don't examine it in any meaningful way. It's the surface level thinking of "it's only fantasy" or "it's just a tool" that prevents us from seeing the full range of pornography's effect on society.

It's worth noting that we only seem to examine masturbatory aids targeted at men when we do these kinds of exercises though. For example, what messages regarding men are provided to women by vibrators? Literal disembodied tireless mechanized robot penises that move in fashions that human being simply don't? Certainly that men are merely objects for their pleasure that will always be ready and willing on command is an obvious message in selling a woman a disembodied penis for masturbatory use, right?

I wouldn't necessarily disagree; the technological alienation of sex as a relational activity is definitely something that affects both genders. I wouldn't necessarily assume, however, that any sexual aid for women need be likened to a phallus.

I would ask a variation of the question Relish in Chaos did, though I somehow doubt you'll give a straight answer -- What else would men masturbate to, if not a representation of sexually willing and ready females with an emphasis on the act itself?

Masturbate to the thoughts of a partner. Masturbate to the thoughts of sex with someone you care about. In short, masturbate to the thought of sex with another human being.

What kind of masturbatory aid intended for the use of men would you not have a problem with, and could you see such a thing existing and being as usable for the same purpose?

Before I answer this, I want to make it clear that I'm not a Christian, I'm not "anti-lust," and I'm not against sex. I think sex is super neat, and I'm glad that I've been able to have a really great sex life in certain times of my life.

The best masturbation aid would be something analogous to a vibrator (cock ring or maybe prostate stimulator, I don't know, I haven't really thought about this) coupled with either material that treats male and female sexual encounters as mutually fulfilling, non-dominant, non-violent, enthusiastically consensual situations, or perhaps thoughts of a partner, stuff like that.

See, what I'm trying to say at the base of all of this is that sex is super cool and that a mutually respectful, loving sexual encounter is incredibly great while the kind of sex depicted in porn is the soulless, shitty version. I want a society where men and women have sex with each other, not with holes that are attached to bodies they don't care about. I want a society where sex is a relational activity, and I am confident in stating that any other approach to sexuality besides one based in mutual respect, consent, and fulfillment based on compassion and real human interaction is not going to be good for anyone, but especially not women. I hope that's clear.

Thanks for responding in a polite and reasoned manner.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

I would ask a variation of the question Relish in Chaos did, though I somehow doubt you'll give a straight answer -- What else would men masturbate to, if not a representation of sexually willing and ready females with an emphasis on the act itself?

Masturbate to the thoughts of a partner. Masturbate to the thoughts of sex with someone you care about. In short, masturbate to the thought of sex with another human being.

While a lot men do do that already, sometimes switching between porn-dependent stimulation and independent (thought) stimulation, the fact of the matter is that...well, I can't quite remember what it was, but it was something about men primarily finding attraction in women from their appearance: instant arousal, as opposed to women who tend to find more attraction in personality, confidence, whatever. Someone else can clarify what I mean, but I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

Either way, "masturbating to the thought of sex with another human being" is just what porn is, only taken out of your brain and plonked onto the screen. And you don't think some people aren't going to just fantasize about rape without the material available online anyway? Furthermore, since Rule 34 is a thing, "mainstream porn" is almost a meaningless phrase nowadays. It's not hard to find what you want with a quick Google search that takes less than a minute. The way you're talking sounds to me as if you think porn is just this sea of violent choke and bukkake trash videos with angry men constantly hurling insults at crying women while jackhammering the holes of their cold shells, when that's not the case. Like, at all.

And I disagree with your notions of a "rape culture". It sounds just as stupid as the "gay lifestyle". Basically, unfounded assumptions with no physical evidence to support them. There isn't a "rape culture"; just a minority of macho dickheads who see any woman in a miniskirt as automatic, unconditional fuck-buddies. It's just that those people are more vocal than the boring average guys that don't make the headlines. Unless you're fucked in the head (pun not intended), you're not going to project those rape fantasy indulgences into real-life, subconsciously or not. And again, it's not just men that have those rape fantasies. Ever read Fifty Shades of Grey, an insanely popular erotica novel primarily aimed at women that details a questionable BDSM relationship between a submissive young woman who has her virginity taken by a successful but troubled dominant businessman who can play the piano and make the aforementioned woman orgasm on command? How's that for unrealistic?

You're not a doctor or a psychologist, therefore you have no authority to be throwing around shock labels like that. Now, I wonder what you think about BDSM.

 

[peruvianskys]

Either way, "masturbating to the thought of sex with another human being" is just what porn is, only taken out of your brain and plonked onto the screen.

No, it isn't. It's masturbating to an object, to one or two holes that are attached to a body. There's a huge difference. Healthy, positive sex views the partner as a human being to relate with, not a piece of meat to use in a utilitarian fashion.

And you don't think some people aren't going to just fantasize about rape without the material available online anyway? Furthermore, since Rule 34 is a thing, "mainstream porn" is almost a meaningless phrase nowadays. It's not hard to find what you want with a quick Google search that takes less than a minute.

A lot of people jerk off to thoughts of raping children, but it's still bad to make child porn.

The way you're talking sounds to me as if you think porn is just this sea of violent choke and bukkake trash videos with angry men constantly hurling insults at crying women while jackhammering the holes of their cold shells, when that's not the case. Like, at all.

Not all porn is like that. However, pornography apologists are consistently understating the amount of material out there that does fit this mold; I'm trying to show the other side.

And I disagree with your notions of a "rape culture". It sounds just as stupid as the "gay lifestyle". Basically, unfounded assumptions with no physical evidence to support them. There isn't a "rape culture"; just a minority of macho dickheads who see any woman in a miniskirt as automatic, unconditional fuck-buddies.

In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances.

In a survey of 11 to 14 year-olds, 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl.

31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience.

65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.

In a survey of college students, 35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it.

One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.

43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.

15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force a woman to have sex.

Sources:

1. Dupre, A.R., Hampton, H.L., Morrison, H., and Meeks, G.R. Sexual Assault. Obstetrical and Gynecological Survey. 1993;48:640-648.

2. National Crime Center and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center. Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington, VA; 1992:1-16

3. National Victim Center, and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center. Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington, VA; 1992:1-16.

4. Koss M.P., Hidden rape: sexual aggression and victimization in a national sample of students in higher education. In: Burgess A.W., ed Rape and Sexual Assault. New York, NY: Garland Publishing: 1988;2:3-25.

5. White, Jacqueline W. and John A. Humphrey. "Young People's Attitudes Toward Acquaintance Rape." Acquaintance Rape: The Hidden crime." John Wiley and Sons, 1991.

6. Koss M.P., Dinero, T.E., Seibel, C.A. Stranger and acquaintance rape: Are there differences in the victim's experience? Psychology of Women Quarterly. 1988:12:1-24.

7. Malamuth N.M. Rape proclivity among males. J Soc Issues. 1981;37:138-157.

Response?

 

[IamLEAM1983]

Played straight, porn is sexist crap. The thing is, however, that some couples have interesting fetishes. Women who, in their day-to-day lives are always going to expect being treated as equals to men, might appreciate going for Sub or Dom roles once they're in a more private situation with a trusted partner.

In other words, "pretending" to objectify someone else based on their gender can be a turn-on to some. As long as it's understood to be just that - plain and simple artifice - I don't see what's wrong with it.

Say I have a rape fetish, but I'm a nice guy who's not willing to actually pursue the real thing for obvious legal and moral reasons. After a few months to a year with a steady girlfriend, I'd let her know about that fantasy of mine, to maybe see if she'd appreciate playing along, once in a while.

 

[Spinozaad]

Why do I even bother... Alas, here we go.

[
Really, it's an unfalsifiable claim that most women don't like to be ejaculated on my strangers for money? You really want to argue that?

Yes. I'm not claiming the opposite. I am stating that you cannot make that claim, and accept it to be self-evident. It's an epistemological impossibility. It's an assumption on your part, but assumptions do not make universals.

Not particularly interested in it - we're having a conversation about sexism in pornography so I'm interested in discussing porn that involves men and women.

And homosexual porn is free of any sexism? You are the one who substitutes a particular kind of porn for the entityy. Homosexual porn is part of pornography. Please elaborate how the two relate.

The rape culture is the culture that leads to roughly 1 out of 3 women around the world being raped. It's the culture of sexual violence and domination that men practice upon women.

Alright. I'm interested in reading your explanation of how universal rape culture relates to consumption of porn and the myriad of different cultures throughout the world.

South Africa, for example, has a relatively low internet penetration (sorry for the "gendered" term, but that's what Wikipedia uses) and thus little access to the abundance of porn on the internet. It's a country in which 35% lives below the poverty line and 25% is unemployed (which means few financial resources to aquire the pornographic material you describe), and still has one of the highest levels of sexual violence in the world. Clearly, this is a culture that's not saturated with pornography, yet people still rape one another. Explain the dissonance between your (implicit) hypothesis and this case.

You cannot deny that pornography has had a specific and destructive influence on the perception of sex in our culture - you only have to look at the rise of labioplasty, as just one tiny example, to see that. You can talk all you want about "fantasy vs. reality" but it's bunk; my experience with porn-using men has shown me pretty fucking across the board that such defensive silliness just doesn't reflect reality.

Influence? Probably. "Destructive"? That's a normative term based on your own mental model. Your argument rests on many assumptions which are not necessarily true nor real. Your own observations are only a single representation of reality, not reality itself.

What does "extremely hardcore porn" refer to? Because mainstream porn, from producers like Vivid or Digital Sin contain depictions of gangbangs, facials, degrading language, brutalization, domination, and violence. Only the incredibly reactionary, niche markets of "feminist porn" are even TRYING to get out of that approach.

What's feminist porn? Some girls anally pegging guys? Because that's also a thing, and I wouldn't necessarily call it feminist. Again you miss the point that you find it degrading, but that it isn't necessarily degrading at all. Those women were paid for their services.

And as for anecdotal evidence, it's not as though I interact with a different breed of man than anyone else; our media landscape is saturated with those type of comments.

Never noticed, because I doubt it is.

For a lot of men, it does. I looked at pornography quite a bit as a young man and I certainly never raped anyone. But that doesn't change the fact that a culture in which the sexual objectification of women is considered a recreational activity, even if its a "fantasy," is a culture that cannot possibly respect women.

Normative statement, not a fact. First of all 'a culture' is too vague. Second, assuming you refer to the western world:

The amount, variety and availability of porn have increased immensily the past two decades. During that period, more and more women have risen to high cultural, economical and political positions. Men are completely incapable, according to you, of respecting women; yet women are becoming more and more influential.

Again a dissonance between your sweeping hypothesis and an occurence in the real world. How and why?

If I made a film where two black men break into a white woman's house, rape her, and then kill her family, at which point a brave Klansmen goes on a hunt to track this black man down and ends up lynching him, could I say "Well it's just a piece of fiction" afterwards when people complained?

Yes.

Porn is like The Birth of a Nation (if you've seen that film); obviously it's fiction, but what does it say about our culture that we can enjoy even fictionalized accounts of violence and degradation?

It says nothing of "our culture", or even "culture" in general. It might say something of human nature, since humans have enjoyed violence, sex and (implicit) powerrelations since the dawn of time.

As I said before, pornography exists because people enjoy watching women be sexually objectified and used and treated as fuckholes - and I think that alone is good enough reason to say that pornography is bad.[/quote]
Porn exists because people like to watch and/or to have sex. There's a difference.

It plays into those shitty desires. I don't think you can have a healthy view of women if you also enjoy watching them turned from human beings into tools for male pleasure. And if you think you can, well then, the burden of proof is on you to show me how someone can respect and value women while still enjoying the spectacle of six men gagging an 18 year-old and then ejaculating into "her little whore mouth."

I can enjoy watching two women suck a guy off while he does not return any sexual favours, eventually ejaculating on their faces while they kiss and caress one another.

Does that mean I hate women, that I want to dominate them and think of them as lesser? Of course not. No sane person does. Even if (again, even IF) porn has the effect you think it has, there are countless other civilizing processes that override any such detrimental effect.

 

[MHR]

I think "grey's Anatomy" is asexual porn.

Anyway yeah, there's all kind of porn. You'd think porn where the chick is really liking it wouldn't be harmful to women. Anyway there's a whole female friendly genre of porn, it's a whole category called "female friendly" and it's pretty much as good as all the other porn.

If it wasn't its own category I dunno if I could tell much of a difference.