It Never Ends

[Ishal]

At this point, I really have to ask: if game characters were oversexualized for women instead of for men, then what would they look like? I'd imagine I would still find a woman's idea of a sexy woman attractive, and the men I could probably get over as long as they could wear a shirt.

They would look like Skyward Sword Link, Pyramid Head and/or Solid Snake. I've seen legions of women fawn over those three characters. What women find attractive is either not entirely noticeable or seen as a power fantasy for men. But if you really want to see examples of male characters that were definitely made exclusively for the straight teen-young adult demographic to love look at both Fifty Shades of Grey's and Twilight's male leads. We all know how shit those two were, though.

You've seen "legions" of women fawn over pyramid head? I don't even...

Its not that I'm doubting you, its just... it does not compute. Link? sure. Snake? Sure. and Vaas from Far Cry 3 seems to be very appealing to some of my female gamer friends, but pyramid head?

He's a tall pasty white dude with a cleaver and a spear. You can't even see his face. I think he's dressed somewhat conservatively too with his butchers smock and pants. He might be shirtless in a few games, I can't remember.

Maybe I'm over thinking this...

 

[Gigano]

Well, once other groups start putting down as much money for games as the two groups of teenage boys/young men do, they'll be served just as well as these two groups are.

The market never discriminates against money.

 

[Amir Kondori]

I'll be honest, I LOVE the all the art design this game. ALL of it. The crazy knight, the burly as hell dwarf, the huge tits that float in the wind. It is so crazy and out there, yet super detailed and beautiful. I know some will judge me based on this alone but I don't care. Bring on Dragon's Crown!

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Snip

I don't get it either, but I have seen some... unsavoury... fanart made by women of Pyramid Head. I guess it's the domineering, incredibly powerful and (dare I say it), rapey parts of him (I've seen a lot of women on the internet with rape fantasies, but like many fantasies they wouldn't want it to happen IRL) that make some women attracted to him. But then again, I've seen men fawn over weirder stuff so who am I to blame 'em, it's not like anyone's hurting anyone. The human mind works in strange ways sometimes, I guess.

 

[Otaku World Order]

I thought we had a deal on this, people stop complaining about overtly sexy women in videogames and I stop bitching about those Chippendale werewolves and sparkly bishonen vampires in Twilight.

I do remember raising an eyebrow at the character designs when this was first announced, but honestly, I find it hard to believe that anyone would look at this and take it remotely seriously as a portrayal of women. This is even further into the absurdest area then Bayonetta and Lollipop Chainsaw.

Besides, this is Vanillaware, who have proven they can make characters sexy and interesting with Odin Sphere and Muramasa (which I will buy the Vita version of). Heck, Odin Sphere made me genuinely interested in the mythology of the Ring Cycle. How many games can you think of that spark an interest in Opera?

Either way, I'll wait util the game comes out and I have a chance to play it before passing judgment.

Art has not changed a bit over the millennia.

Fun fact: My art history teacher in college basically flat out said that all those paintings of Venus from the Renaissance were the softcore porn of their day. Surprise!

 

[Ishal]

Snip

I don't get it either, but I have seen some... unsavoury... fanart made by women of Pyramid Head. I guess it's the domineering, incredibly powerful and (dare I say it), rapey parts of him (I've seen a lot of women on the internet with rape fantasies, but like many fantasies they wouldn't want it to happen IRL) that make some women attracted to him. But then again, I've seen men fawn over weirder stuff so who am I to blame 'em, it's not like anyone's hurting anyone. The human mind works in strange ways sometimes, I guess.

I kinda figured it would be about being dominated and terrified. I've never seen much of the art like that myself, but many of my friends have, so I know its out there. And hey, I agree, nothing is wrong with it. I just got a little chuckle out of pyramid head being listed next to the other two.

The funny thing is its pretty pure sexual imagery. Pyramid head is totally a phallic symbol to demonstrate the sexual repression (and anger that stems from it) of the main character. I hear domineering fantasies is like 98% of 50 shades of grey

 

[Yuuki]

We're pretty much saying the same thing on the subject of Dragon's Crown but there is an overall issue here where every so often a game comes out that has characters that aren't as disgusting to look at as some these but are still considered to be "over sexualized" and certain portions of the community get all worked up and scream about how the artists are all sexists that do nothing but sit around and objectify women all day. Whether or not that's the case I can't really say because I don't work with these people but I seriously doubt it's what goes on.

I think what bothers me the most about the Dragon's Crown characters, at leas the Amazon and that female Ranger\Archer thing along with the Dwarf thingy is the legs, they look like the guy didn't know what legs look like or he was looking a pictures of 'roided out body builders for inspiration while he was drawing those characters.

Aaah yeah, I'm definitely not one of those over-sensitive "developers are sexists!" tinfoil-hat wearing feminazis (this site has had an overflow of them lately), that's for sure.

But in this case the devs tripped over the very first hurdle of making female characters look humanized and appealing :S

 

[Grampy_bone]

The only thing worse than women who elbow their way into spaces designed, built, and paid for by men and demand that everything change to suit their own selfish desires are the supplicating, wussy tools who bend over backwards to placate and accommodate them. Women, why do you want to ruin our fun, and guys, why do you encourage them?

This article and countless others take it as a given that the gaming industry "has a sexism problem" and that this problem creates a barrier between women and gaming. Except 50% of gamers are female. Where is the problem? Where is the barrier? How are all these women gaming despite the "deplorable exploitation" of women? The answer is clearly that they don't care, not the majority. So why cater to the petulant demands of a vocal minority who, lets be honest here, are always going to complain no matter what you do?

Ladies, if the content of a game offends you, don't buy it. It's as simple as that. I think we need *more* sexism in games. I want games where the men are masculine and tough, and the women are scantily-clad supermodels, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. It's fantasy-escapism entertainment I'm paying my own money for. Demanding that every game cater to the tastes of women is like demanding that every rom-com contain car crashes and explosions. Girls, I'll let you have your games, so let me have mine.

 

[m19]

I'm surprised to agree with almost everything in the article. This is the kind of reasonable feminist view without the man blaming that I can get behind. I was expecting the usual shouts of, "Mysoginy!!1one"

 

[Gigano]

Well, once other groups start putting down as much money for games as the two groups of teenage boys/young men do, they'll be served just as well as these two groups are.

The market never discriminates against money.

But that would mean that groups aren't discriminated at all. Just not being cater too, cause they are not paying in bulk compare to white/cis/western(asian)/male.

Well, yes.

"Discrimination" is being disproportionately catered/not catered to, for irrelevant reasons. The relevant standard for target demographics of commercial products is money. So if two groups overall spend an equal amount of money on their games, you'd expect to see an equal amount of titles catering to them to come out (not month-to-month, but over a period of a few years).

So unless somebody have shown that gamers who love boobs, and gamers who love abstinence, spend equal amounts of money on games, yet are still not getting the same selection, then there's nothing to complain about. Except the reality that you don't get full service at half price, and that swimming with the current always offers more propulsion than swimming against it (...though the exercise from the latter can of course be quite a rewarding alternative).

 

[Bug MuIdoon]

of making female characters look humanized and appealing

Can I just ask, why is that an issue?

 

[LiquidGrape]

Aaah yeah, I'm definitely not one of those over-sensitive "developers are sexists!" tinfoil-hat wearing feminazis (this site has had an overflow of them lately), that's for sure.

Every time someone uses that word with sincere intent, I feel perfectly justified in dismissing them outright.

 

[Narfo]

Spoiler

Wait, that's what the other characters look like?
I'm going to give the same reaction I had when I saw the trailer for the sorceress.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
I can't take ANY of these characters seriously! The amazon/warrior chick is a buffed up giant with a head the size of a apple, the dwarf has muscles on his muscles, the archer LOOKS okay until you realize her legs are sixty pounds (each!) heavier than anything above the thigh, and the knight looks like you can just tip him over and you've won FOREVER! The only one who I take remotely seriously is the mage, though he has the same apple-head as the amazon! In this kind of roster, the sorceress is just fine.
I think it'd be more appropriate if people laughed their asses off rather than raise a fuss.

 

[Mahoshonen]

The thing that always gets me about these sort of discussions is that there is the underlying assumption that those who are in favor sexually-alluring women being featured all have the same sexual fantasies. It's always the DD cup hour-glasses that sound like a stoned Jessica Rabbit that get shown off. Well what about my sexual fantasies that involve athletic, well-tuned women because the possibility of having my pelvis crushed while having sex arouses me, hmm? Or what if my ideal girlfriend has a squeaky Cathy Ireland voice? Why do I have to get stuck with exactly one type of fantasy? (note: these may or may not be what I actually fantasize about).

I also think the industry could avoid this debate happening every goddamn weak if they mixed things up a bit. It's gotten to the point that whenever a heavily endowed woman appears in a game you can practically copy-paste the debate from the last time and no one would know the difference.

 

[Yamato-san]

Thank you, Bob. It's nice to see someone acknowledge that you can be all for equality, but still enjoy certain physical qualities in the opposite sex. Yes, I love the tits, especially Japanese illustrated portrayals of tits. Are they pandering? Well yeah, in a lot of cases they are. However, so long as the character can still be nicely fleshed out in spite of that, I don't see why there's a problem. You can hardly blame such a body type for simply existing, especially in a game that presents such a diversity in character designs as this one does. In fact, if anything, outcries that single out the buxom character do nothing but put down big-breasted women whom, whether these people want to deny it or not, DO exist in real life.... and before anyone wants to say "impossible" or make comparisons to Jessica Rabbit, keep in mind that pretty much NO drawing can accurately depict every square inch of the human body. Their charm lies in basic, even if detailed, representation (this being one of the main draws in anime faces to begin with), and in the Sorceress's case, I don't think it's a stretch to picture some well-endowed woman being able to cosplay as her with respectable accuracy.

Also, while calling out some men as "white knights" might be in bad form as it seemingly goes against the entire feminist movement, I do think it's actually justified when you've got some idiots just readily assuming ALL women are going to be offended by such imagery (which, hypocritically enough, is an over-generalization being made on their part). Incidentally, I know at least a couple female anime fans whom enjoy oppai as well, so I guess in some respects, thinking "the gobs of fat placed in front of this lady's ribcage are awesome" isn't a sentiment held exclusively by males (whether or not they get turned on by them is a different matter).

Oh and speaking of Soul Calibur, if you pry yourself away from Ivy for a minute you'll notice that they have a lot of shirtless men with dashing good looks that are clearly meant to appeal to women. They aren't there for a power fantasy either, that's what heavy hitters like Astaroth and Nightmare are for. I'm talking about the people like Maxi and ZWEI and to a lesser extent yun seung.

Ahh, exactly! How many male characters in the Soul series wear shirts?! Raphael, Nightmare sometimes, and Cervantes sometimes? Beefcake and cheesecake are provided in equal measure! I'm cool with it!

I think the thing to do here when you have multiple characters is you have to have AT LEAST SOME of the characters of each sex have attractive designs that provide sexual appeal and AT LEAST SOME characters of each sex who are cool and badass and/or are relatably human. Preferably these sets overlap, but I understand that while I think Taki's stoic character is cool (insofar as characters as underdeveloped as Soul characters can be), having to constantly look at her autonomous attack boobs could be kind of uncomfortable.

Incidentally, Ivy herself, as a villain-turned-antihero, is cunning, educated, and driven; ironically, she's one of the most developed characters in the franchise.

Japanese games in general seem to be far more progressive than a lot of westerners like to give them credit for, and I find it sadly ironic that a VanillaWare game such as this is drawing controversy but not the multitude of military shooters where the female half of our species might as well not exist. I cited quite a few examples in a message I previously posted here [http://gameoverthinker.blogspot.com/2013/03/overbytes-on-tropes-vs-women.html#idc-cover] (which was in response to someone linking this article [http://pietriots.com/2012/06/23/musings-on-female-characters-or-why-is-the-western-game-character-menagerie-such-a-sausage-party/], which listed even more examples that I didn't bother to list here).

"Even if he does cite some of the Japanese examples as being fighters or RPGs, there are still plenty of games featuring a single protagonist: Metroid, Monster World IV, Okami, Toki Towa, Bayonetta... hell, even with the RPGs, there's a fair number where the central role is a female, such as Final Fantasy VI (arguable), most Atelier games, most titles developed by NIS that aren't Disgaea (though even Disgaea features females in major co-starring positions), Xenosaga, etc. It gets even more interesting when you consider games like Panel de Pon, which was reworked to feature Yoshi's Island characters under the premise that Americans wouldn't take to the magical girl genre very well (and until Toonami gets around to airing Madoka Magica and/or the upcoming Sailor Moon reboot, this may still apply even today)."

 

[Bug MuIdoon]

Wait, that's what the other characters look like?

Agreed completely. After reading through every post on here and the other few threads about the same game/topic I feel like I'm the only person who actually looked at the other character designs, instead of just 'that one' and brandishing a pitchfork.

If the warrior woman didn't have a face it would be nigh on impossible to tell what gender it is, even her boobs look like male pectorals.

 

[Grampy_bone]

Girls, I'll let you have your games, so let me have mine.

What games are made for girls these days? You literally just said that games are made for and by men.


Not all games have to be about "men that are masculine and tough, and women that are scantily-clad supermodels"


dont like it?


dont buy it!

See it works the other way too.

You're misrepresenting my argument and those of the "games are sexist" crowd. I didn't say all games "should" be for men, I'm saying that most games *are* for men, that I will be more likely to buy male-designed games, and that most women don't seem to have a problem with this. Moreover the feminists and their supporters aren't asking for more games they like, they're demanding games *I* like not be made or sold because they offend *them.*

Do I have to make this more clear? I'm not saying there should be no girl games. Why would I? If there is a market for it, make it and sell it. I'm not seeking to deny anyone else their entertainment, so why are they trying to deny me mine? Honestly though, I doubt that a female market truly exists, and that the "50% gamers are female" statistic comes from other factors which I won't go into here.

Bottom line is this amounts to calls for censorship and I won't countenance it. You never hear men saying, "This game is too girly" or "I don't like how this game depicts men" then demand it be changed and have the temerity to declare it 'social justice.' Men understand that when we ask for our tastes to be catered to we are acting out of self-interest and nothing more. Why are women so special that they get to demand what is and is not allowed it art? Answer me that.

 

[Yuuki]

of making female characters look humanized and appealing

Can I just ask, why is that an issue?

Isn't that what they're going for here, and isn't that the point of over-sexualisation? How is it going to help appeal to anyone if they tried to make sexy humanoid characters but they turned out with tiny beautiful heads and ugly-as-shit bodies that look biologically mutated?