It Never Ends

[El_Ganso]

Thanks a lot Bob for posting this! The thing that bothers me the most about the current discussion is people trying to shame me for enjoying the female figure (in any media). But then again I guess my views coincide more with the "sex positive" feminist than anything else.

More diversity in gaming is always welcomed.

 

[Yuuki]

Firstly, let me clear something up:

Spoiler: This is NOT an over-sexualized character. IT IS A FUCKING GROTESQUE ALIEN.

I wish people would stop saying "this was drawn by a 14 year old boy" because any male who finds this character genuinely appealing to look at is either blind or bonkers.
I'm usually someone who's not against over-sexualized characters when the character actually LOOKS sexy.

But there is nothing beautiful or appealing about this "Sorceress" character, her figure is disgusting to look at! There is nothing sexy about watermelon-sized boobs which behave like they're filled with water and bounce around like they're trying to detach from the woman, with hips so disproportionately large it looks more ALIEN than human.

There are good kinds of over-sexualization and then there are the bad kind. This is the worst kind.

If you want to design a beautifully over-sexualized character, don't give me a disgusting animal that has giant tumors in it's chest and hips. I don't find that sexy in the least and as people can see from the Youtube ratings, hardly anyone does.

That is all.

 

[Stryc9]

So there's a gallery of pictures of the characters in another article [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123560-Dragons-Crown-Designer-Apologizes-for-Exaggerated-Characters] here and I could really only stand to look at a couple of them before closing the tab not because "OMG SEXIST OBJECTIFICATION OF WIMMINZ!" but because the designs are horribly disproportionate and kind of disgusting to look at least in my opinion.

There is not point in getting worked up into a lather when a game company does something like this. If they were to do the total opposite of the Dragon's Crown character design and make the most puritan looking characters possible there would be tons of backlash against that as well, some of it from the same people that are throwing a tantrum over this "debacle". No matter what anyone does with this issue it's going to piss people off because it's a popular thing to argue about on the internet right now. It's not going to go away until a bunch of people find something else to be all indignant over and nothing is going to change, except for the topic of these circular internet arguments.

There is enough room in the industry for reasonably designed female characters right next to the over sexualized three eye patch held together with dental floss characters.

 

[Baresark]

This issue is pretty stupid. Just don't buy the game.

I'm of two minds myself. First, if someone feels something is wrong, I believe they have every right to stand up for what they believe in (within reason). On the other hand, you always have to pick your battles and this is a stupid stupid battle to participate in. I don't have much in the way of respect for anyone over at Kotaku. They only did what they did for the click throughs. They aren't, by any stretch of the imagination, a legitimate or important or even good source of news as much as they are an opinion factory (like most game "Journalist" sites (I use that word quite liberally in cases like this)). The fact that they would attack the lead artist for an issue they have in the game when in fact anyone in the long chain of decision makers could have put the end to that. If he is an example of someone who is fighting for the equality of women and the image of women in gaming... well he sucks and should be gagged right now, because he isn't helping anyone.

I also feel that artists (a term I'm going to use loosely in this case) should have a little more going on than giant breasts on a woman and overly muscled up men who can crush mountains. I love comics and a big part of comics is exaggeration, but any artist should have a care about whether or not they are ruining the aesthetic of their work and by extension the visual message they are sending to the general public overall. In other words, it's fine if you want to draw that, but keep it at home. There is an audience that seeks work like that (many of which are fully grown and responsible adults, not just boys going through puberty), but it probably doesn't extend the general overall public.

 

[Yuuki]

There is enough room in the industry for reasonably designed female characters right next to the over sexualized three eye patch held together with dental floss characters.

This really is way, way beyond "over sexualized". See my above post, the goal of over-sexualization should be to make a character that is at least appealing and beautiful to look at.
But this creature looks like she escaped from the depths of art hell and is the polar opposite of "beautiful". Well, everything below her neck at least.

 

[Erttheking]

This is just another 'non-issue' being brought up by people who feel the need to 'white knight' for the ladies.

Looks...ALL THE CHARACTERS ARE EXAGGERATIONS.
I know it's hard for some of you to 'get this', but that's kind of the style of the game.

It's like bitching about Madworld being 'too violent', when that WAS THE POINT.

Getting more pissed off about how some characters breasts bounce, while ignoring real issues like the racism in the CoD series, makes you look foolish.

If her specials attacks involved 'boob slap' and 'death by handjob', ya might have a case.
But, as it stands, not really 'feeling it'...bro.

You know, just because it was intentionally done doesn't make it immune to criticism. You criticize things if you don't like them, especially if they're out on the mass market. This game is not immune. And I'm pretty sure people have criticized Madworld for being too violent, and very few ran of Gears of War when it was being criticized for being over the top with massive muscle bound men that looked like they abused steroids on a regular basis. It was done intentionally, but people criticized it because they didn't like it.

OT: I agree with Bob. I'm not asking people to be morally ashamed for liking this game, but you really can't expect everyone to be ok with this. We're gonna criticize it if we don't like it. I'm a big Halo fan but I put up with everyone criticizing it on this website, this game doesn't deserve special attention.

 

[Erttheking]

Spoiler

Art has not changed a bit over the millennia.

Might want to put a NSFW tag on that one.

 

[piinyouri]

I really think this whole silly issue with the sorceress has sadly overshadowed a very awesome fact.

You can play as Raistlin in this game.

 

[Doclector]

So, it really isn't going to stop? Ever?

I feared this. Here's the thing, the sane people aren't the problem. We are trapped between two extremes. People who, as said, refuse to see a problem, and people who think there is nothing else but the problem.

And they won't. Shut. Up. They won't become better informed and they will never, ever stop and goddammit, it's really driving me fucking crazy. It seems to just go on, and on, and on, with no real progress made. No doubt it can't just be ignored, like I said, people ignoring it is part of the problem, but sweet jesus, can we not just discuss this semi decently? The discussions around this are vicious even by internet standards.

 

[Stryc9]

There is enough room in the industry for reasonably designed female characters right next to the over sexualized three eye patch held together with dental floss characters.

This really is way, way beyond "over sexualized". See my above post, the goal of over-sexualization should be to make a character that is at least appealing and beautiful to look at.
But this creature looks like she escaped from the depths of art hell and is the polar opposite of "beautiful". Well, everything below her neck at least.

I could really only stand to look at a couple of them before closing the tab not because "OMG SEXIST OBJECTIFICATION OF WIMMINZ!" but because the designs are horribly disproportionate and kind of disgusting to look at least in my opinion.

We're pretty much saying the same thing on the subject of Dragon's Crown but there is an overall issue here where every so often a game comes out that has characters that aren't as disgusting to look at as some these but are still considered to be "over sexualized" and certain portions of the community get all worked up and scream about how the artists are all sexists that do nothing but sit around and objectify women all day. Whether or not that's the case I can't really say because I don't work with these people but I seriously doubt it's what goes on.

I think what bothers me the most about the Dragon's Crown characters, at leas the Amazon and that female Ranger\Archer thing along with the Dwarf thingy is the legs, they look like the guy didn't know what legs look like or he was looking a pictures of 'roided out body builders for inspiration while he was drawing those characters.

 

[monev44]

The problem isn't, and has never been, that The Sorceress (or Ivy, or Cammy, or Lara, or Daphne, or whomever else) look like they do... it's that everything looks like they do.

That's funny, because there is another female character IN THIS EVERY GAME who looks entirely different. So it seems that it IS the fact that even ONE exists that's twisting people panties or noodles respectively.

When I look at The Sorceress don't even see a character the designer is seriously hoping men cream their pants over. I see an absurdest satire of a 40 year old cliché. Yes the breasts physics are a joke, because IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A JOKE!

I find it ironic when people complain about "sexy" characters they often give counter examples saying characters should, "look more like this..." with Fayth from Mirror's Edge on many people's short list of examples. As far as I'm concerned Fayth is the single sexiest character I've ever seen in a game. Don't assume your ideas about what people find sexy in a character design is in any way universal.

Furthermore, dictating what all characters should, or should not look like is demanding homogeneity, just a homogeneity you happen to prefer.

 

[Ishal]

At this point, I really have to ask: if game characters were oversexualized for women instead of for men, then what would they look like? I'd imagine I would still find a woman's idea of a sexy woman attractive, and the men I could probably get over as long as they could wear a shirt.

They would look like Skyward Sword Link, Pyramid Head and/or Solid Snake. I've seen legions of women fawn over those three characters. What women find attractive is either not entirely noticeable or seen as a power fantasy for men. But if you really want to see examples of male characters that were definitely made exclusively for the straight teen-young adult demographic to love look at both Fifty Shades of Grey's and Twilight's male leads. We all know how shit those two were, though.

You've seen "legions" of women fawn over pyramid head? I don't even...

Its not that I'm doubting you, its just... it does not compute. Link? sure. Snake? Sure. and Vaas from Far Cry 3 seems to be very appealing to some of my female gamer friends, but pyramid head?

He's a tall pasty white dude with a cleaver and a spear. You can't even see his face. I think he's dressed somewhat conservatively too with his butchers smock and pants. He might be shirtless in a few games, I can't remember.

Maybe I'm over thinking this...

 

[Gigano]

Well, once other groups start putting down as much money for games as the two groups of teenage boys/young men do, they'll be served just as well as these two groups are.

The market never discriminates against money.

 

[Amir Kondori]

I'll be honest, I LOVE the all the art design this game. ALL of it. The crazy knight, the burly as hell dwarf, the huge tits that float in the wind. It is so crazy and out there, yet super detailed and beautiful. I know some will judge me based on this alone but I don't care. Bring on Dragon's Crown!

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Snip

I don't get it either, but I have seen some... unsavoury... fanart made by women of Pyramid Head. I guess it's the domineering, incredibly powerful and (dare I say it), rapey parts of him (I've seen a lot of women on the internet with rape fantasies, but like many fantasies they wouldn't want it to happen IRL) that make some women attracted to him. But then again, I've seen men fawn over weirder stuff so who am I to blame 'em, it's not like anyone's hurting anyone. The human mind works in strange ways sometimes, I guess.

 

[Otaku World Order]

I thought we had a deal on this, people stop complaining about overtly sexy women in videogames and I stop bitching about those Chippendale werewolves and sparkly bishonen vampires in Twilight.

I do remember raising an eyebrow at the character designs when this was first announced, but honestly, I find it hard to believe that anyone would look at this and take it remotely seriously as a portrayal of women. This is even further into the absurdest area then Bayonetta and Lollipop Chainsaw.

Besides, this is Vanillaware, who have proven they can make characters sexy and interesting with Odin Sphere and Muramasa (which I will buy the Vita version of). Heck, Odin Sphere made me genuinely interested in the mythology of the Ring Cycle. How many games can you think of that spark an interest in Opera?

Either way, I'll wait util the game comes out and I have a chance to play it before passing judgment.

Art has not changed a bit over the millennia.

Fun fact: My art history teacher in college basically flat out said that all those paintings of Venus from the Renaissance were the softcore porn of their day. Surprise!

 

[Ishal]

Snip

I don't get it either, but I have seen some... unsavoury... fanart made by women of Pyramid Head. I guess it's the domineering, incredibly powerful and (dare I say it), rapey parts of him (I've seen a lot of women on the internet with rape fantasies, but like many fantasies they wouldn't want it to happen IRL) that make some women attracted to him. But then again, I've seen men fawn over weirder stuff so who am I to blame 'em, it's not like anyone's hurting anyone. The human mind works in strange ways sometimes, I guess.

I kinda figured it would be about being dominated and terrified. I've never seen much of the art like that myself, but many of my friends have, so I know its out there. And hey, I agree, nothing is wrong with it. I just got a little chuckle out of pyramid head being listed next to the other two.

The funny thing is its pretty pure sexual imagery. Pyramid head is totally a phallic symbol to demonstrate the sexual repression (and anger that stems from it) of the main character. I hear domineering fantasies is like 98% of 50 shades of grey

 

[Yuuki]

We're pretty much saying the same thing on the subject of Dragon's Crown but there is an overall issue here where every so often a game comes out that has characters that aren't as disgusting to look at as some these but are still considered to be "over sexualized" and certain portions of the community get all worked up and scream about how the artists are all sexists that do nothing but sit around and objectify women all day. Whether or not that's the case I can't really say because I don't work with these people but I seriously doubt it's what goes on.

I think what bothers me the most about the Dragon's Crown characters, at leas the Amazon and that female Ranger\Archer thing along with the Dwarf thingy is the legs, they look like the guy didn't know what legs look like or he was looking a pictures of 'roided out body builders for inspiration while he was drawing those characters.

Aaah yeah, I'm definitely not one of those over-sensitive "developers are sexists!" tinfoil-hat wearing feminazis (this site has had an overflow of them lately), that's for sure.

But in this case the devs tripped over the very first hurdle of making female characters look humanized and appealing :S

 

[Grampy_bone]

The only thing worse than women who elbow their way into spaces designed, built, and paid for by men and demand that everything change to suit their own selfish desires are the supplicating, wussy tools who bend over backwards to placate and accommodate them. Women, why do you want to ruin our fun, and guys, why do you encourage them?

This article and countless others take it as a given that the gaming industry "has a sexism problem" and that this problem creates a barrier between women and gaming. Except 50% of gamers are female. Where is the problem? Where is the barrier? How are all these women gaming despite the "deplorable exploitation" of women? The answer is clearly that they don't care, not the majority. So why cater to the petulant demands of a vocal minority who, lets be honest here, are always going to complain no matter what you do?

Ladies, if the content of a game offends you, don't buy it. It's as simple as that. I think we need *more* sexism in games. I want games where the men are masculine and tough, and the women are scantily-clad supermodels, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. It's fantasy-escapism entertainment I'm paying my own money for. Demanding that every game cater to the tastes of women is like demanding that every rom-com contain car crashes and explosions. Girls, I'll let you have your games, so let me have mine.

 

[m19]

I'm surprised to agree with almost everything in the article. This is the kind of reasonable feminist view without the man blaming that I can get behind. I was expecting the usual shouts of, "Mysoginy!!1one"