It Never Ends

[Entitled]

Everyone has the right to be offensive. You have no rights protecting you from being offended. Don't like it? Don't look, listen, or participate.

Or what? You will feel offended? Please, "CRY SOEM MOAR" about how people' negative opinions about a game's design shouldn't exist.

That was pretty much the point of the article, if you would have read it istead of just assuming that it must be about feminazis trying to violate your freedom of speech regarding Dragon's Crown.

Progressives won't shut up about conservative stances being "offensive", because while everyone has a right to be offensive, everyone also has a right to call out everyone else on being offensive. (and of course, everyone has a right to call out people on crying "offensive" too early).

So long as the same basic human right of free speech holds one individual's ability to say something and another individual's ability to voice displeasure at what the first said as equally protected, there will always be these arguments. Always.

You haven't added anything to this argument, you just made one step back to how your rights imply that these arguments shouldn't exist.

 

[Twinmill5000]

Please tell me I'm not in the minority here when I say: who gives a shit?

In the words of a random female Castanic from another game that stirred up at least just as much controversy over boobs and the portrayal of women: If you don't like it, leave.

That's really all there is to it. They can design the characters they want, and make the games they want and... you, you can choose not to buy the game if it offends you that much. Call of Duty offends me. I don't own anything past Modern Warfare 2. It's easier than complaining and makes a bigger impact.

Personally? I don't like this new character. She's shown up on certain sites for at least a couple years now, and, no... she isn't what I consider attractive. I'm not going to go into a rage, however, because she simply exists. Don't get me wrong, I'm looking for a strong, good example of a well done female character who isn't sexualized more than anyone here, I guarantee it, and most of the characters I've created, for game concepts I'm too lazy to put an alpha up of (regardless of how beneficial it may be) in UDK, satisfy that craving. As much as I'd like to see better examples of female characters, this character, in particular... doesn't piss me off, and it shouldn't piss you off. From what I can tell, she's not memorable, not worth your time, and exists for fanfare. There's nothing wrong with that. If the rest of the world wants to point this game and say 'this is why games r 4 kidz look at how imatur they r' then fuck the rest of the world in its super tight sphincter with the biggest fist you can find, because when all is said and done, the only one who can decide whether or not you like something, is yourself, nobody else.

And if you really care what the rest of the world thinks, throw Bioshock at them or something. We have mature games, or at least, we have games that strive to be mature. There will always be a market for that. We also have immature games that wear silly hats and like to draw large, cartoonish boobs on everything. There's a market for that, too.

 

[Entitled]

In the words of a random female Castanic from another game that stirred up at least just as much controversy over boobs and the portrayal of women: If you don't like it, leave.

That's really all there is to it. They can design the characters they want, and make the games they want and... you, you can choose not to buy the game if it offends you that much

So what are you still doing in this thread that you don't like?

The problem with criticising compaints about offensive content for what they are, is that it's an obvious "I'm rubber you're glue" situation. Every complaint that you can make about how people shouldn't complain, sticks to you. By your own logic, if you don't like feminist arguments, you are free to not listen to them.

Ironically, this is what the OP article actually *is* about, how discussions like this will never end in a society with freedom of speech. People won't just "leave" because someone else is not as offeneded about the game as they are.

They can post the complaints that they want, abd make the articles they want and... you, you can choose not to click on them if it offends you that much.

Except that you also have a right to express your opinion that they should leave, just as they have a righ to express their opinion that Dragon's Crown should leave.

 

[JoshuaMadoc]

Please tell me I'm not in the minority here when I say: who gives a shit?

I give a semi-trailer's worth of shit, purely because Kamitani's still getting attacked by Schreier and his suckups even after Kamitani apologized. Sorry, but that's the kind of act that warrants another eye-for-an-eye treatment, and I will not stop my utter scorn for filth like him until he finally accepts Kamitani's apology, which was, in the first place, issued after a lot of pressure from half the fucking internet.

God forbid Kamitani goes even further with his apology and outright omitting the Sorceress in the release build.

 

[TazTheTerrible]

Trying to keep this short and to the point:

The problem isn't the Sorceress' design. The problem isn't that she exists or that characters like her exist. The problem isn't even that female characters are portrayed as sexually appealing. The problem is the pervasive trend which this character design is an example of, which is to treat women as ONLY sex objects.

There would not be any problem with characters like this at all (not even as part of a trend) if they were only ever enjoyed as silly little indulgences on the side, with the full understanding of what it was you were indulging in.

The problem is that we're not at that level of maturity yet. We have a serious sexism problem in the game industry. Many of our games depict women as object. Passive characters, existing generally for the support of the male lead and often with implied sexual thematic.

The problem in this instance is that characters like this, in today's game culture, tend to reinforce that trend. The problem is NOT liking sex or sexy characters. The problem is NOT that you or anyone else finds this kind of design appealing, sexually or not and the solution is NOT to censor or ban games or characters like this.

The solution is to grow up as a culture, admit that we have a problem, and start seeing women as people rather than as a collection of sexual attributes, then to act accordingly.

 

[Akisa]

I just view how sexualized the female characters are, and that's what I judge if a game is worth my time. Over sexualized and it means that the game is relying on that and thus the chances are the game is crap. If they're more modest the better the game is.

 

[LazyAza]

I hate hate haaaaate it when people say "can we please stop talking about X and go back to talking about "games". Makes my blood boil that kind of nonsensical lazy idiotic attitude. It's the fastest way to directly destroy the potential of the entire medium of games and because so many people depressingly share this mentality we are still seeing so little progress, so little change at such a slow rate across the industry.

One day I'd like to live in a world where a game staring a female lead who isn't just vapid eye candy exists that has a big budget and actually sells a tonne of copies on a regular basis. The new Tomb Raider was quite decent in this regard but that's what, 1 game of lets say the 4 or 5 from the past 20 years? compared to letsee maybe somewhere between 1 and 3 hundred games staring males over the same time period?

And yet their are people in the world who think this isn't a problem... Talk about burying your head in the sand. yeesh

I'm as much a red blooded hetro male as the next, boobs n all that are great but god damn what I would give to get some variety from my games. Even playing the last mortal kombat recently again I am still wondering "really guys did every female in this need double Ds, a micro waist and a third of an outfit? its not just a matter of desiring diversity, the whole super sexualized female game character trope is just so over done and lazy now. Theirs nothing to be gained from it being so over used anymore, its been done enough, why aren't most people just arguing for different things to this simply to have them? Absolute madness not too at this stage imo.

 

[Arkynomicon]

I loathe all Internet bandwagons based around group Y wanting to stop group X from enjoying something. Just let group X enjoy whatever rubbish they fawn over. If they are being obnoxious about it then you can tell them to go fornicate themselves.

Making a big deal about peoples escapism is just stupid and childish when there are real world problems tearing the world asunder everywhere.

 

[Twinmill5000]

-snip-

Oh, gee, that isn't an obvious point at all. You're damn right about one thing. I don't like that people don't like that people don't like that people don't like that people don't like something. So, by your logic, why don't I leave?

The answer's quite simple, really.

In my first post, I mentioned something about making an impact? But here's where you're... what's the opposite of right again. Right. Wrong.

See, I'm a huge advocate for freedom of speech, but really, when I say 'free speech', I mean freedom of expression. You may want things you don't agree with thrown into obscurity and never to be mentioned, or ultimately, nonexistent. Your post oozes with this point. I want the opposite. I want a world where nothing is considered obscure, only niche, at worst, and thus, while I have the right to post what I want, and create what I want, you have the right to leave.

In terms you can understand: Complaining is not your only option. You have far more, and while I tried to convey the message that you can make an impact in more ways than one, you obviously didn't get it. So here, let me spell it out for you. You can either write me back, and have the short term justification of 'putting me in my place', which, let's be honest, if you're going to look back on this a year from now and go 'man I'm sure glad I put Twinmill5000 in his place', then you're sad and I no longer wish to speak with you, not that I'm implying I ever did, or you can just, ignore me.

But, that won't make my contributions to this thread go away, as I still find some desire to do so. Funny how that works, eh?

 

[Entitled]

See, I'm a huge advocate for freedom of speech, but really, when I say 'free speech', I mean freedom of expression. You may want things you don't agree with thrown into obscurity and never to be mentioned, or ultimately, nonexistent. Your post oozes with this point.

Yeah, could you point at the part of my post that "oozes of" wanting to make things nonexistent? Or for that matter, the part of the OP article that claimed anything like that?

Your "contributions to this thread" so far consist of a reflexive knee-jerk assumption that everyone who thinks that discussions of whether somehing offends us are just natural, and they won't go away, is really out to get you. If I'm not joining you in wanting to silence complaints, then obviously I must be agreeing with those complaints, including the most extreme ones of them that are crying for it's nonexistence.

If you don't want to read the whole article, then at least read the last paragraphs, and understand that all your "contributions to this thread" are just another example of muddying the waters by not accepting the basic fact that people WILL tell it when they are offended by something, and acting as if every and all critcism would be an all-out attack on your precious idea of diversity.

 

[Arkynomicon]

-snip-

I pretty much agree with all of this.

 

[Therumancer]

I think this is your most important point:

The problem isn't, and has never been, that The Sorceress (or Ivy, or Cammy, or Lara, or Daphne, or whomever else) look like they do... it's that everything looks like they do.

A lot of the people on this site in particular have the notion that female gamers are always going to be upset when this kind of thing crops up. As someone who has had lengthy conversations with said female gamers on the subject I can attest to the fact that this is completely untrue... at least for the majority of female gamers. There is always going to be a market for sleazy character designs and that's okay. The reason female gamers are so upset is because, frankly, there aren't many games out their that don't objectify the female form.

Dragon's Crown may turn out to be a pretty cool game and I am not about to mock someone who's a fan of the character design, but is it so wrong for games like this to get criticized? If there isn't any dialogue in this regard we'll never see any progress. This game's just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Actially, the truth is that as a general group "female gamers", which should be extended to "women in the fandoms" (Anime, PnP RPGs, Computer Games, Sci-Fi fantasy novels/television, etc...) aren't upset. Indeed these are exactly the kinds of characters created by and for women when you see material directed at them.

In general complaints about the objectification of women in fantasy come from two basic groups of people. One is guys who believe that the lack of women interested in them through their hobby can't be because of them or a minority of girls being interested in hardcore fantasy (being more into reality), so they look for a target like artwork or storylines objectifing women. Totally oblivious to the fact that women themselves create a lot of that stuff to begin with, and fantasy created by and directed at women tend to actually be "worse" in all of the aspects your lonely geek boy is trying to convince himself are responsible for his own lack of success with the opposite sex. The other group of people are "lib trolls" that is to say trolls that take a non-issue and try and rally liberal sheep into the attack to cause strife and chaos, basically by dropping an "ist" or "ism" tons of people on the left side of the spectrum will automatically go into attack mode, without really looking at the issue as a whole. This latter bit is pretty much the school that spawns people like Anita Sarkessian. Lib Trolls are by and large motivated by causing as much trouble as possible, keeping the fire going, and trying to find the biggest platforms they can from which to rally from.

Now there ARE exceptions to this, so before anyone says "but I'm not like that" or whatever, understand that there is an exception to everything. From an overall sociological type perspective though, this is the truth, and the driving force. The biggest problem in cases like this is when a a developer like the one doing "Dragon's Crown" apologizes, which pretty much validates what the trolls behind everything wanted, and simply encourages more of this in the future, as they will continue to herd their sheep to similar targets in the pursuit of future lulz.

In short, the biggest problem is not the artwork, but the fact that we're having dialogue about it, oblivious to the simple fact that such an utterly-gorgeous (if highly stylized) "Mary Sue" is more likely to be the stuff of a 14 year old girl's fantasy than one concocted by a boy (though it goes both ways). I mean seriously, sit down and read some fantasy created by women for women and you'll notice the protaganists are an awful lot like that sorceress physically. When you look at fan fiction, especially the sort that caused the term "Mary Sue" (which is female for a reason) to become commonly used you'll find truckloads of things that make this look tame, without a drop of testosterone
anywhere nearby.

Honestly, I think before anyone decides to make a comment about "feminism" or the "objectification of women in fantasy" that they should be forced to read at least a dozen or so fan fictions written by girls, and at least a similar number of fantasy series written by women largely for women. Starting with say "My Immortal" on the fan fiction front (the pain is part of the point), and things like Kim Harrison's "Hollows" series, Llith Saintcrow's work, or "Women Of The Otherworld" on the published fantasy side of things. Start by making note of the cover art. As odd as it sounds when a lot of these discussions get going, half the time in reading the responses I feel like I'm the only one who even has the grounding or experience to have a fair opinion here (which to be honest is grounded enough where it's pretty much solid fact at this point, which is why I'm making the referances). Nothing directed at you (the person I'm actually responding to) just in general. To be honest for all of his knowlege of geekdom, I can't help but wonder if MovieBob (who isn't speaking against this kind of imagery) himself has much familiarity with women's fantasy and paranormal romance, sometimes disparigingly called "Powder Puff Fantasy". I'd imagine if he did have his usual level of expertise with geek culture in response to that area, he'd be in agreement with me, at least on this subject.

 

[JimB]

It is my theory that the Sorceress's breasts are so large because her waist is too small to permit the usual number of internal organs to fit inside it, so as an evolutionary response, the remainder of her vitals have shifted upward to her tits. This has the not-inconsiderable side benefit of allowing me to imagine the look on some sweaty virgin's face as he reverently fondles her right boob and a hollow growl issues forth because her stomach is in there and he just squeezed a gas pocket out.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

It is my theory that the Sorceress's breasts are so large because her waist is too small to permit the usual number of internal organs to fit inside it, so as an evolutionary response, the remainder of her vitals have shifted upward to her tits. This has the not-inconsiderable side benefit of allowing me to imagine the look on some sweaty virgin's face as he reverently fondles her right boob and a hollow growl issues forth because her stomach is in there and he just squeezed a gas pocket out.

I've seen cartoon pornography, which featured a lesbian character with women-eating breasts.

It was fucked up.

 

[Pogilrup]

Every character in Dragons Crown is drawn with absurd levels of exaggeration. So what if one of the characters has large breasts?!

Western society is too prudish.

If you don't like the look of a character, then don't play as her, or simply don't buy the game at all.

Unfortunately, not looking at a fire doesn't extinguish it. The those that did blow the whistle on this game were probably concerned about how this work might influence works to perpetuate something we would preferably shove into the backrooms.

So then those people are guilty of betraying other gamers, and they are doing it to appease the ignorance of others. And I wouldn't stop to piss on them even if they were on fire. The enemy is those who would try to blame and shame everyone who enjoys an artistic medium because they find certain uses of that medium to be offensive.

From arch-conservatives to militant feminists, to the far-right to the far-left of the political spectrum, those who attempt to politicise gaming are no friends to any gamer who would like to play games free of censorship and repression.

Do you think exploitation films and airport fiction win accolades? Some of them might be appreciated decades later but not by the majority of the audience in its day.

Video games have been stuck at the level of such works in regards to portrayal of women for most of its existence. It is only recently that some games have made an effort to break the mold in those portrayals. So long as games with shallow eyecandy are popular with the masses, the medium will impeded in its effort to be taken seriously as an art form.

 

[Atmos Duality]

"Diversity"...that's really my only major complaint about the whole debacle.

(Well, that and the stupid pandering. I'll just put it this way: When I see balloon-animal-grade tits, or a waistline that needs to be made of spring-steel to be structurally and flexibly plausible, it doesn't turn me on. It makes me sigh.)

A fair number of my favorite game characters are female, and not because "lol, wank material".
But it's unlikely I will encounter many more because gaming is stuck in its own trappings.

It's not the existence of pandering-wank material and exploitation: it's the over-emphasis on it.
I am not offended by Dragon's Crown characters any more than I am of say, Soul Caliber or Ninja Gaiden.

*puts on pretentious-hipster sunglasses and fedora*

If gaming truly wants to prove it can be an artform, it needs to step back a bit, and examine other stories than that from the perspective of a grizzled 30-something heterosexual white male and his token minority best-buddy | or the young-adult teenager bishi-boy with his sexually awkward "squeaky-toy" girlfriend. (depending on market)

*takes off pretentious-hipster garb*

 

[DarthSka]

http://hokutoandy.kinja.com/interesting-analysis-of-the-art-i-dont-agree-with-some-479786991

Interesting tidbit on the whole debacle by a commenter on Kotaku. Now the first part that concerns the artist's response is its own can of worms, but I found the section describing the reasons behind the sorceress quite enlightening.

 

[DarthSka]

Someone just needs to make a male video game character whose performance and progress through the game is entirely measured by his masculinity and superficial sexual attractiveness. His only outfit is a speedo. Maybe later you get to unlock armor that covers his legs and arms but never his torso or groin. As he is damaged by enemies he loses muscle tone and/or genital size. Once he is reduced to a "small" man in all regards he dies (of embarrassment presumably).

How would any of you males out there feel if you saw your wife, girlfriend, sister, or girl you were crushing on playing this game? Chances are you wouldn't like it. Chances are you would be turned away by the apparent lack of respect for men and the issues men face. Chances are you would want to yell, "there is more to a man than the size of his junk and how well he can display it while doing completely NON-SEXUAL tasks!" ; or "That armor makes no sense!"

You would feel awkward walking into a room with a bunch of girls squealing and giggling over a man being reduced to "not-a-man" simply because he is losing the superficial qualities of a sexualized male.

Then and only then would you understand what female gamers and simply female witnesses to gaming have felt 1000's of times towards 1000's of games both new and old.

In case you were wondering, this is a male writing this.

Honestly? I wouldn't care. Just like how I didn't care about my girlfriend was watching Twilight movies where two men are reduced to fighting over a girl who is cold, uncaring, and manipulates their feelings to fulfill her own selfish needs. Not to mention constantly seeing Jacob's shirtless body, a type I acknowledge I'll probably never have. I just recognized it as a female fantasy, one that may not reflect real life, but does not need to. She gets to watch and read, and I don't have to partake in it.

 

[Colt47]

There's controversy over the sorceress, but not the insane looking dwarf or over the top knight? I don't think the controversy with dragons crown has anything to do with the ONE sexualized character as much as the entire art style for the game.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Every character in Dragons Crown is drawn with absurd levels of exaggeration. So what if one of the characters has large breasts?!

Western society is too prudish.

If you don't like the look of a character, then don't play as her, or simply don't buy the game at all.

Unfortunately, not looking at a fire doesn't extinguish it. The those that did blow the whistle on this game were probably concerned about how this work might influence works to perpetuate something we would preferably shove into the backrooms.

So then those people are guilty of betraying other gamers, and they are doing it to appease the ignorance of others. And I wouldn't stop to piss on them even if they were on fire. The enemy is those who would try to blame and shame everyone who enjoys an artistic medium because they find certain uses of that medium to be offensive.

From arch-conservatives to militant feminists, to the far-right to the far-left of the political spectrum, those who attempt to politicise gaming are no friends to any gamer who would like to play games free of censorship and repression.

Do you think exploitation films and airport fiction win accolades? Some of them might be appreciated decades later but not by the majority of the audience in its day.

Video games have been stuck at the level of such works in regards to portrayal of women for most of its existence. It is only recently that some games have made an effort to break the mold in those portrayals. So long as games with shallow eyecandy are popular with the masses, the medium will impeded in its effort to be taken seriously as an art form.

Which is akin to saying that romantic comedies are preventing Women from being taken seriously in dramatic roles, or that the availability of high-definition pornography somehow affected your enjoyment of Anne Hathaway's performance in Les Misérables, or The Dark Knight Rises. It's an unreasonable and irrational idea. People such as yourself should stop listening to and learn to ignore the twisted politically-driven newspeak of trolls of either side of the political fence.