It Never Ends

maninahat

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CrossLOPER said:

Art has not changed a bit over the millennia.
That strikes me as dishonest. On a pedantic level, art has clearly changed, in the sense that the mainstream male audiences no longer goes in for Rubenesque females or naked men.

On a less pedantic level, whilst we have always had art that sexualises and exaggerates physical forms, they are far from the only kind of human depictions that exist, which isn't so much in the case with games. Game depictions of females are far less diverse than the contents of an art gallery. Had we a healthy library of alternatives to voluptuous females, then game art could be comparable. Even individual artists provide a range of depictions of women (compare Degas' sketches of dancers - in some, the emphasis is on bare backs and cleavage, in others the emphasis is on postures and gestures), which tends not to be the case in games.

Even if art has not changed, and forms have always been sexualised, that doesn't discredit the complaint being voiced by Kotaku. Historically, art has long been made by men, for men, to suit male tastes. To argue that games are a continuation of art traditions, is an argument that games are a continuation of male orientated, patriarchal conventions, with games made for the benefit of males and with neglect to the females. Supposing you can even find a woman who is attracted to the dwarf muscle men, it is largely a fluke that the woman finds it attractive, rather than a deliberate attempt to reach out to female audience members with a beefcake male character. The new DMC - now that is a rare example of female fan service.

-------------------

I'm assuming this post was inspired by one of the commentators on Kotaku, who tried to justify the depictions of women by suggesting that they are just another reference to classical art. The commentator claims that as certain art pieces in the game are clearly referencing Classical depictions - things like Thor's hammer or the Tower of Babel - the depiction of women are also similarly a benevolent reference to such artworks. I think this is bullshit too.

It would be easy to argue with the premise "all the necromancers in Atlus games are referencing this a statue of a big titted necromancer" by pointing out that they clearly aren't all necromancers, but I'll confront them on the argument's own terms. Whilst the warrior's hammer is near identical to the famous, Classical depiction of Thor's hammer, and the ruined arena looks exactly like the iconic depiction of the Tower of Babel, the women look nothing like the relatively obscure, non-Classical sculpture of a nude necromancer provided. The Atlus characters aren't bare breasted, their costumes are totally unalike, and there is literally no point of similarity between games and the statue beyond the existence of ample tits - which are hardly rare in the art world. It's a huge stretch to make that connection.

Now if Atlus really were looking for Classical art inspirations for their magically imbued female characters, then their female characters would look nothing like they do now. Magical females are traditionally depicted as hags and witches. The emphasis is on wrinkles and age, rather than sexiness, and that is fairly consistent in Medieval, Renaissance, Raphaelite and Classical artworks. There are plenty of works where magical females are shown as generic, pretty maidens, or in some cases (Medea, Cerces, Morgan Le Fay etc), as attractive, shapely women, but notably, they still wear modest outfits and they don't have absurdly oversized tits. If Atlus purposely ignored the countless depictions of crones and based their art on these sexy women, their characters would be covered up and moderately proportioned.

It seems unlikely that if they were going for art references for their females, they would ignore the ample library of magical female depictions and go for a totally obscure piece of non-Classical art. Even in their male character designs, Atlus' artwork is far more exaggerated than any notable piece of art. The references, like Thor's hammer, are clear but the warrior looks nothing like Thor, Hercules, or any traditionally muscular male. They came up with an original concept for a muscular man. Likewise, I don't see any female figure in popular art who resembles the women. Perhaps the sorceress' staff is a reference to some painting, but she isn't.
 

TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY

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maninahat said:
What interests me is why everyone hates Kotaku so much. I find it hard to disagree with anything this guy said, immature insults asides, but even if I didn't, I don't see how that would make Kotaku the worst gamesite ever.
Because they are really the bottom barrel for gaming journalism. For example the day of Walking Dead episode releases they would front page spoilers of the episode, so you saw it the minute you went there. There are other reasons, but i stopped frequenting it long ago to recall them.
 

v3n0mat3

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Here's how I see it:

Will the *game* be good?
>Probably

If the game is good, should anyone care about the design of one character?
>No

There you go.

It's in the same vein as "graphics vs gameplay". Do graphics matter if gameplay is superb? Not in the slightest.
 
Aug 1, 2010
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Good article.

I still despise the tactics and people on both sides far too much to support either.

I'm not one of the dicks trying to STOP the arguing, I'm just on the side of total and complete apathy.

They want to change gaming as we know it, sure why not. Could be interesting.

The other side wants to keep gaming exactly the same? Whatever. I like gaming regardless.
 

hazydawn

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bandit0802 said:
RJ Dalton said:
Is my primary objective to this representation allowed to be that huge breasts are just a turnoff to me?
Amen. This idea that "bigger is better" is just...weird. Who started this and how can I put a stop to it?!
Well even if the big boobs lovers are the minority which I don't think they are, it's still reasonable to cater for them, right?

BIGGER IS BETTER!
 

spartan231490

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You can all cry, scream and ***** all you want, nothing will change. Game production is a business, and as they say in Avatar: "The only thing our investors hate more than [bad press], is a bad bottom line." The gaming industry will keep cranking out these tried and true formulas, including ms. titty boob monster, until they stop making money.
 

PunkRex

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Evil Smurf said:
PunkRex said:
This is why I love you Bob, agreements all round. I was raised by my mum, little sister and nan but gawd damn if I just don't like me a busty red head.
Then I think you'll like Faye Reagan, just a hunch.

Anyway, I don't really mind if a game has overly sexualised characters, but if it is overboard then I can't play for the awkward: See Lollipop Chainsaw massacre.
*Ahem* Weeeell I... may know of her...
 

Drauger

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Well heck do you know what I find offensive here? they way Bob compares the "two sides"


"I'm a feminist, an out-and-proud "social progressive" in the parlance of American politics and a full-bore proponent of knocking down, busting up and sweeping away the white/western/heterosexual/cisgendered/male power structure not just in gaming but in everything, so of course I'm sympathetic to those who looked at The Sorceress and saw just one more neon-lit "No Girls Allowed!" sign going up in the window of the Game Culture Treehouse. I get it. I know where they're coming from - or, rather, I understand where they're coming from as best I'm able."

"On the other hand... well, how best to put this? I'm a bit of a pig. Above all else, a man needs to be honest about himself, and my self is pretty much the target for this type of "Female Perfection as Imagined by Over-Imaginative Pubescent Schoolboy" character design - not my only hang-up, by any means, but certainly on The List. I am a red-blooded, All-American, Hooters-patronizing, Baywatch-nostalgic connoisseur of sleaze and debauchery. So not only do I get the aesthetic wellspring from whence The Sorceress seems to have leaped, I actually find her design rather pretty - as cartoons go, at least. And those who know me can, hopefully, can attest that in spite of this I'm rather far removed from the basement-dwelling, socially inept, casual misogynist that this outlook is alleged to only be shared by."

So heck if I enjoy they game according to Bob im a ... pig ?, instead if i bash the game cause the caracter designs Im a out-and-proud social progressive............

REALLY ?!!

Well I guess I'm a goddam pig, since I have been waitng for this games for what? 2 years to come out, but hey if this is the way things are supposed to be, then well i was apig since i was what? 7 and saw who frammed Rogger Rabit, really talking about beingsocial progressive.
 

Sonic Doctor

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Jan 9, 2010
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Great article Bob.

But seriously, I'm getting really tired of the silliness of complaining about games that come out that are like this. Yes, as you said Bob:
The problem isn't, and has never been, that The Sorceress (or Ivy, or Cammy, or Lara, or Daphne, or whomever else) look like they do... it's that everything looks like they do.
But I have a problem with how you pointed out the problem, the phrase used should be "many" look like they do, not everything, because that is untrue.

The problem I have with people that throw insults at companies that make these games is that they are trying to get their message across in a hateful and really unproductive way.

If gamers want games with more seriously looking and portrayed women characters, they should ask, maybe even petition, or fund for such games to be made. If people want to create games that don't fit your view, just move along and let them, or give them a reason to make the games you want. Attacking them doesn't work. I for one would never want to make something for someone that was trying to bully me into making it, or putting me down because they think what I'm doing is stupid.

Be understanding, game companies are businesses that need to make money, or they can't continue to make games. Say, "Okay, we understand you make games with women characters we don't like, because there is and will always be a large demographic for it. We want to tell you that there is also a demographic for games with other styles of women characters(less exaggerated).

Throwing tantrums and insults will get your agenda nowhere. Really, I think the best way feminists will get the characters they want in more mainstream games, is to turn to the Indie market. Find Indie developers that are willing to work with you on what you want. Because the point of doing that is, it is obvious that these days, the big developers like to try and copy the Indie scene, because they have seen how such games make money hand over fist. So if you can get a feminist approved game that makes loads of cash, you will be able to get the other companies to notice.

Don't push for the removal or end of "sexist" games, just push for the creation of the games you want. Again, insults make things to go nowhere.
 

RaikuFA

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grigjd3 said:
castlewise said:
It is unclear to me why Dragon's Crown gets to be star of the show in this latest round of internet drama but a game like Starcraft 2, for instance, gets a free pass on their character design. Why is the Sorceress over the line but Kerrigan with her impractical zerg heels and meticulous non-chitin covered ass is somehow ok?
The difference is in quality. Starcraft is generally an excellently made game (if completely lacking in innovation in the sequels). I mean, Skyrim on the PC often gets converted to an effective porn sim and yet no one complains about some of the characterizations done there either (note a certain red-head werewolf in the fighter's guild). The truth is, people don't mind hyper-sexualized characters nearly as much as they may seem to. What people really don't like is mediocre and poor games using hyper-sexualized characters as a crutch to up their sales. This problem would go away if people refused to play bad games. On the other hand, many game developers make bad games before they make good games so sometimes it pays to support even the bad games on the idea that the risk could lead to something really good.
So you've played it? A sexy character or two automatically means its bad? Logic at its finest.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Just two points from me here.

1. As a hot-blooded, heterosexual male, I find the Sorceress's figure downright grotesque. It's almost a caricature of the human form- but then again, that can be said for four of those six character designs; the Amazon looks like a parody of a male bodybuilder, with boobs (and part of a halter top) slapped on and the head reduced in size by half. I honestly have to wonder at the tastes of anyone who finds that top-heavy figure attractive, let alone arousing.

2. The argument "there's a lot of nearly-naked men too, so this makes it equal" is absolute crap. The whole Boris Vallejo-style "mountain of meat in a loincloth" archetype isn't necessarily what women find arousing- it's more what men think women find arousing. It's just another factor of the male power fantasy, where all you need is a display of brute strength to get the women to line up for you.
 

GryffinDarkBreed

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Y'know, what happened to voting with your wallet? Do you not like something? Does it offend you? FUCKING TOUGH. I'm not buying this game because it doesn't look specifically fun to me, but beyond that I don't much care about the character design. It's a parody, a joke, and the fact that so many people are MISSING the joke [This is how silly our character design is! Isn't it hilariously exaggerated? :D] is goddamned depressing.

Everyone has the right to be offensive. You have no rights protecting you from being offended. Don't like it? Don't look, listen, or participate.

To quote the Heavy "CRY SOEM MOAR!"
 

Redd the Sock

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Sonic Doctor said:
Great article Bob.

But seriously, I'm getting really tired of the silliness of complaining about games that come out that are like this. Yes, as you said Bob:
The problem isn't, and has never been, that The Sorceress (or Ivy, or Cammy, or Lara, or Daphne, or whomever else) look like they do... it's that everything looks like they do.
But I have a problem with how you pointed out the problem, the phrase used should be "many" look like they do, not everything, because that is untrue.

The problem I have with people that throw insults at companies that make these games is that they are trying to get their message across in a hateful and really unproductive way.

If gamers want games with more seriously looking and portrayed women characters, they should ask, maybe even petition, or fund for such games to be made. If people want to create games that don't fit your view, just move along and let them, or give them a reason to make the games you want. Attacking them doesn't work. I for one would never want to make something for someone that was trying to bully me into making it, or putting me down because they think what I'm doing is stupid.

Be understanding, game companies are businesses that need to make money, or they can't continue to make games. Say, "Okay, we understand you make games with women characters we don't like, because there is and will always be a large demographic for it. We want to tell you that there is also a demographic for games with other styles of women characters(less exaggerated).

Throwing tantrums and insults will get your agenda nowhere. Really, I think the best way feminists will get the characters they want in more mainstream games, is to turn to the Indie market. Find Indie developers that are willing to work with you on what you want. Because the point of doing that is, it is obvious that these days, the big developers like to try and copy the Indie scene, because they have seen how such games make money hand over fist. So if you can get a feminist approved game that makes loads of cash, you will be able to get the other companies to notice.

Don't push for the removal or end of "sexist" games, just push for the creation of the games you want. Again, insults make things to go nowhere.
In many ways, this is where the majority of the block int he discussion is. It's not that most of us deny sexism in videogaming, but trying to tone down the hyperbole makes it look like we do. Yes, women portrayed like Jill Vanentine, Chell, Samus, and Peach are rarer, but they do exist, and there's ample opportunity to let your demographic be known to the industry, especially now that things are available digitally. We all know companies go where the money is, so if there are things that add diversity, but they didn't sell, then the fault isn't on game companies for not providing, but on us for not buying. And who the hell wants to blame ourselves when there are faceless corporations we can blame for not marketing to us?

I really REALLY would like some actual statistics on these kind of things instead of emotion filled tantrums from people that act like they've looked at every single video game on the planet and came up empty.
 

OtherSideofSky

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Honestly, it's impossible for me to take anyone who claims that any design in a Vanillaware game is representative of an industry standard.

The only reason all of you are talking about the sorceress in the first place is that her design goes so far beyond usual tropes in its exaggeration. If her design didn't stand out as exceptional, there wouldn't be anywhere near this much talk about a design in a niche game from a niche publisher. You throw out examples like Ivy and Kasumi, but none of the standard 'sexy' characters you name actually look anything like the sorceress; they appear conservative in comparison.

Ignoring the games other designs is incredibly lazy and intellectually dishonest. Look at the amazon. How many other games have characters that look like that? How many games have visibly super-muscular women of any kind? Look at the knight and the dwarf. Even among impossibly bulky male protagonists, how many look that cartoonishly exaggerated? Look at other Vanillaware games. How much of their work looks like anything else in gaming? They make niche games with a very distinctive visual style, driven by the creative vision of an individual artist, not big-budget titles that are designed by committee and decide what to include based on pandering to fan demographics.

You're having what should be a meaningful debate, but it isn't a debate about Dragon's Crown, nor is it terribly relevant to that game.
 

acosn

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MovieBob said:
It Never Ends

MovieBob discusses the recent Dragon's Crown controversy, and why we really need more diversity in our videogame characters.

Read Full Article
It must be fun to represent the exact same groups who have said point blank that they want to destroy the current video game market, in no uncertain terms. They want your childhood. They want to eat it for breakfast. They complain about everything without the slightest grasp of things like marketing and what sells.


You'd do well to avoid the sensationalist drivel and idle name calling journalist rackets like Kotaku engage in. You should aspire to more lofty goals than playing follow the leader.
 

fwiffo

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This seems like a parody. Its more ridiculous than sexual. I think feminists would make a bigger impact if they complained about more serious examples of sexism in games, and let this stuff slide since its basically more silly than anything. That's just my opinion on complaining strategy...if this really offends you, go ahead and say something.

captcha: it is different

no, captcha, its all the same.