J.J. Abrams Says Gay Characters Are Coming to Star Wars

[EbonBehelit]

That wasn't the statement. The statement was that they have set back heterosexuals. The reason they were chosen is because of their portrayal.

There could be another Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey book/movie a year for the next thousand years and heterosexuals would not be impugned by it. People don't decide straight people are abusive fucks or mentally unstable because of movies like this. It's a huge double standard.

True. I'd wager almost nothing could possibly set back heterosexual relations bar society reverting back into something Hellenistic.

It's hard for there not to be a double standard when like 95% of the population is straight. The best we can hope for is steady, meaningful change.

 

[Magmarock]

I don't really care for all this political correctness.

 

[JimB]

Not a fan of Harry Potter, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Harry's parents sexuality has to be set in order to, you know, have Harry as a child.

Not the issue. The argument made was that sexual orientation has to inform the story, which means is must permeate the story with manifest effect. Under that standard, it doesn't matter that it's logical to assume his parents were male and female and procreated normally; it only matters that their sexual orientation is not an expression of J.K. Rowling's personal beliefs as woven into the story as a theme or metaphor, so by that rule, it is extraneous and self-indulgent, and must be cut.

 

[runic knight]

But you are suddenly changing the dynamic because what was written for 7 books does not include the "gay parents" it very specifically specifies that Lily is a woman and that James is a man and that Severus Snape vied for Lily's affections leading him to become the character he is.

A lot in Harry Potter actually IS tied to classic gender roles.

The problem is that JK Rowling basically invokes Death of the author upon herself both with Black Hermoine,Non Ginger Ron and Gay Dumbledore.

As in the Author JK Rowling that wrote the original 7 books is apparently dead because despite her expressive writing style and the character design choices that she made with the movies coming out.

JK Rowling as an author and in the original books is a very expressive writer she takes every pain and detail to show us that the Weasleys are Ginger that Draco Malfoy is blonde (Actually the entire Mud-blood thing could be interpreted as a race issue where someone like Malfoy fits the blond hair blue eyes stereotype and these others are called MUD-blood mud=brown to my knowledge).
She shows us that Lupin loves Tonks, that Ginny loves Harry,That Fleur loves her Weasley, that Severus loves Lily,etc.
She shows us very clear features for many characters.

Both Hermoine suddenly being black and Dumbledore being gay within her writing style would have featured prominently it is impossible to take how the books were written and then claim from that source alone we should have interpreted it as such.

Rowling is re-interpreting her own work which means she should either amend it:
1 She could write a "Rita Skeeter Article" about Dumbledore's diary being found or something of the kind in which he expresses that he's gay and adding that as "canon" (although this is a bit sketchy).
2 If it's so damn important she could write a pre-quel written from Dumbledores perspective where we actually see him identifying as a gay man.
3 She could re-write the books to suit these new changes (very bad choice to my opinion).


Rowling currently seems to be either A badly and falsely using controversial topics to draw attention back to her work B To be abusing her own writing with bad re-interpretations and additions to illustrate her current opinion on sociopolitical issues.



Back on topic:

I wholeheartedly agree with your view on Abrams's comments.
In our modern society explicitly stating that you're including a gay or a black person just feels like you're doing it for the attention.
Why not cast 5 gays 2 blacks 5 women and then let us see the movie and find out?

Drawing attention to either the character being played being gay or the actor playing the character being gay is doing it for the attention.

Ser Loras Tyrell is uncontroversially gay, Renly Baratheon is uncontroversially gay and Jim Parsons is a gay man that uncontroversially plays a socially awkward straight man in Sheldon Cooper.

There's no reason to point out every gay character in GoT because there are many and it is acceptable.

I think we may be in agreement on the Potter thing. My point was that the detail of Dumbledore's sexuality was one that had no baring on the character in any effective capacity, and thus it seems odd so many people latched onto it like they had, trumpeting the trait when in relation to the story, it had no impact or effect, nor even gave any explored character depth. The addition of the trait after the books were out seems like something tacked on for the sake of it, and given the points you raise about how defining traits were actively mentioned and used predominantly, how relationships were great plot motivators, and how there were already themes being explored that could have very easily taken the character trait and ran with it, well, it all goes back into people looking at the idea of a gay Dumbledore questionably. Not because the character is gay, but rather, why it matters at all to mention it, let alone try to pretend the character is some great victory in one way or another. The trait of sexuality tacked onto him feels like a change made for audience reason and reaction and comes off as cheap with how all the other traits of the characters that define those characters have been used in the series.

The idea of brown Hermione being another example of that sort of thing, where traits are added for the sake of it after the fact and in an attempt to appear more inclusive or progressive, it actually comes off as patronizing and pandering. Hell, it seems a little insulting almost that these characters are suppose to represent minorities in such a fashion, yet in a story covering topics of prejudice, hate, bigotry along with a good versus evil story, the lack of mention of them or exploration of them is telling about the extent of the investment those traits are into those characters. And when those traits mean nothing to the story, characters or themes, are never mentioned in the series, do nothing to give actual depth to the characters and seem to exist entirely for the reaction society and audience have to the concept, it is sort of sad. Now Dumbledore being gay could have had some interesting impact on the story in his motivations and his relationships, and if explored or hinted at, it could have given the depth to the character some people claim him being gay gives automatically. Sadly though, the stories never make use of the trait if it was intended to be there from the beginning. And the lack of certainty on that fact is probably the biggest complaint people have about that whole thing. It is "han shot first" with a different trait this time around. Sadly some wish to believe that because the trait is sexuality, rejection or dislike of how it is handled is a sign of homophobia or other such nonsense. Though, I suppose, if many of those same people weren't trying to play up the reveal of Dumbledore having that trait like some great win, fewer people would probably be complaining about the poor way it was done in the first place.

Tying that all to the Star wars topic and the examples you mentioned, it does feel there is a difference between characters that are gay as part of their character, and characters that get that trait tacked on after the fact for the effect it has on other people. And I think that second is what the star wars one will end up being, much to its detriment.

 

[Lilani]

Some of the fanbase (including the actor of Poe) seem to be rooting for a Finn/Poe romance, but I rather like the bromance they established in TFA. Strong friendships can be fun, and in some ways even more interesting than romances because there aren't as many rules for what "moments" have to occur (romances always need "accidental" tender moments, confessions, the first kiss which gets interrupted, the successful kiss closer to the end, etc.). Now, I wouldn't mind if either of them found another man to be interested in. Just not each other. I like where that is now.

Spoiler: One spoiler-ific extra comment on the matter.

With Han gone, I think we need another good strong friendship going forward. Rey is piloting the Falcon now with Chewie still as co-pilot, but I never got the feeling that meant she was supposed to replace Han. And nor was her relationship with Chewie supposed to replace Han's.

 

[Dango]

It better be C-3PO.

It really better be C-3PO.

 

[happyninja42]

It better be C-3PO.

It really better be C-3PO.

Oh come on, C-3PO is happily C-3PO-sexual. He's very much in love with himself. Don't force him to fit into your dogmatic social stereotypes! xD

Though I would find it funny if some character, gender/species regardless, made it a point to flirt hellaciously with 3PO, just to watch him get flustered on how to respond. Lot's of double entendres and innuendos, and 3PO having no clue what's being said to him. Just answering them literally. That would be pretty damn funny in my mind. Just having him be oblivious to that. 6 million forms of communication, but flirting ain't one of them! xD

 

[Strazdas]

Not a fan of Harry Potter, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Harry's parents sexuality has to be set in order to, you know, have Harry as a child.

Not the issue. The argument made was that sexual orientation has to inform the story, which means is must permeate the story with manifest effect. Under that standard, it doesn't matter that it's logical to assume his parents were male and female and procreated normally; it only matters that their sexual orientation is not an expression of J.K. Rowling's personal beliefs as woven into the story as a theme or metaphor, so by that rule, it is extraneous and self-indulgent, and must be cut.

Sorry, like i said im not a fan of the books so my knowledge of them is limited. I assumed that it had some significance to the story. i dont remmeber their sexuality being displayed in the movies, but then i havent seen all of them either (though more than the books)

 

[Gorrath]

It's Finn and Poe, right? I mean, every one of their interactions on screen had more sexual tension and romantic chemistry than Padme and Anakin. Based on other replies in the thread, I'm not the only one that saw this. I mean, certainly Poe and Finn had a much closer relationship than Finn and Rey-Rey, and FinnxPoe barely knew each other. It's totally gotta be Finn and Poe.

 

[ulfgrynn2.0]

technically, everything outside movies has been deemed to be non-cannon, so in JJ Abrams universe the games never existed.

anything but films are non-cannon nowadays. so noone in Aftermath exists. Also do you really think Abrams is ever done?

Incorrect. The Clone Wars, SW Rebels, as well as a multitude of new novels and Marvel comics have been added to the new, canon timeline being made by Disney. Aftermath is a part of that new canon.

I still maintain that stormtroopers should all be clones, making it kinda not fit the narative. And yes i know the excuse of "They started recruiting afterwards".

There's more to it than that. The Clones from the clone wars suffer from accelerated aging, so they would not be in prime condition to fight in the army by the time A New Hope takes place. The Empire cut corners and went with regular recruits because it was cheaper. As a result, you had stormtroopers with varying levels of skill and an overall weaker army.

First of all, I thought there already were gay characters in Star Wars. In fact, I could swear there was already news about that on this very site. I don't know, perhaps I simply happened.
But he's talking about the film series here, not the rest of Star Wars, which makes me wonder, why? Aren't other people making the other films? What role does he even have in the Star Wars films now; I thought he was done.

J.J. apparently did not get the memo that there was already a gay character in Disney's new canon.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Delian_Mors

A female Moff named Delian Mors appears in the novel Lords of the Sith, and it briefly mentions that she was married to another woman. The way it was handled was subtle and ordinary. They mentioned the fact she was a lesbian and then moved on with the story.

 

[P. K. Qu'est Que Ce]

I don't give a shit for whatever Disney is willing to portray as romance or love, gay, straight, or Ewok.

 

[happyninja42]

It's Finn and Poe, right? I mean, every one of their interactions on screen had more sexual tension and romantic chemistry than Padme and Anakin.

I believe you are simply conflating them having any chemistry at all compared to Anakin/Padme with automatically being sexual chemistry.

This is an issue I have with the "Shipping Community" in general. They take any scrap of affection and chemistry between two characters, and blow it up into "They're totally going to bone each other's brains out!" levels of implication.

Finn lived his entire life, being brainwashed and conditioned to be a cold, merciless killer. Then, when he tries to reach out to someone to help him, he encounters someone who is quite friendly and willing to see him as an individual, hell Poe even gave him his name. He complimented him on his shooting skills, and in general, just acted like a decent, positive reinforcement model of how a human being should be, in direct contrast to the Order's faceless, emotionless upbringing. Of course he would develop some attachment to the guy.

Now sure, given how Hollywood handles emotional relationships, and the fact that the cues they usually use for lovers, are simply "we like each other and get along, and express emotion to each other", it's easy to just assume that it means they are hooking up. But in reality, people who aren't sexually attracted to each other, are capable of having this level of compassion and regard for each other.

Based on other replies in the thread, I'm not the only one that saw this. I mean, certainly Poe and Finn had a much closer relationship than Finn and Rey-Rey, and FinnxPoe barely knew each other. It's totally gotta be Finn and Poe.

Sure it could go that way, but I doubt it. Finn showed an equal amount of, if not more of, concern and regard for Rey over the course of the movie. He lied to the Resistance just to get a chance to rescue her from the Starkiller. A girl he knew barely more than Poe to be honest. So by the logic of "They've hung out and had chemistry", it should be Rey, simply due to level of involvement. I mean if we're just basing it off tropes and stuff like that, and not whether or not it makes narrative sense at all for them to hook up.

I suspect the gay character will be a new one entirely, most likely a supporting character introduced in 8. Hopefully it won't be a character like the Marovingian from Matrix Reloaded, where he's just there to be a Gatekeeper to plot knowledge, and is allowed to be foppish and flamboyant, while flirting with the heroes. I'd like for the character to be someone who's just there, doing their thing, and they just happen to say something like "I lost my husband on that planet when the Order destroyed it! So don't question my conviction to see them destroyed!" Or something similar.

It's really not that hard to write a good story, where the gender/ethnicity/sexual orientation of the protagonist isn't an important aspect of the story. John Scalzi did a great example of how it could be done with his novel "Lock-In". The protagonist has a name that is used for both women/men, is never referred to by gender or ethnicity, due to the nature of the story, and just does their thing. Scalzi even went as far as to have both a male and female narrator do the audiobook, just to have the variety of personal narrative. It's even got gay characters in it, and their gayness is hardly represented at all, because their true purpose to the story is based on who they actually are, and their involvement in the events of the narrative. It really is a fun book, and something of an eye opener for me. I was listening to it for the 2nd time, before I noticed that they never even hinted at the protagonist's ethnicity, until one specific point, and even that simply implies that he/she is of mixed ethnicity if anything.

I highly recommend it to anyone.

 

[Something Amyss]

This is an issue I have with the "Shipping Community" in general. They take any scrap of affection and chemistry between two characters, and blow it up into "They're totally going to bone each other's brains out!" levels of implication.

Or make it up wholesale. I'm surrounded by shippers, and there is no straw they won't clutch at.

 

[Politrukk]

Happyninja42
Something Amyss


So now am I allowed to say they're doing it on purpose?
Or do we need to wait for another grand reveal that fits a certain denominator

Say whatever you want. I couldn't give a shit either way. You were allowed to say whatever you said before, being allowed to say something, isn't that same thing as being correct about it.

Not to mention that he was asked the question directly So I don't see how this is anything other than him simply answering the question. He didn't open a Q&A by saying his new cast was going to contain X% non-straight characters. Someone asked him, he answered.

Oh you can't deny that this doesn't further my point in the slightest it is actually a prime example of it.

 

[Politrukk]

Not a fan of Harry Potter, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Harry's parents sexuality has to be set in order to, you know, have Harry as a child.

Not the issue. The argument made was that sexual orientation has to inform the story, which means is must permeate the story with manifest effect. Under that standard, it doesn't matter that it's logical to assume his parents were male and female and procreated normally; it only matters that their sexual orientation is not an expression of J.K. Rowling's personal beliefs as woven into the story as a theme or metaphor, so by that rule, it is extraneous and self-indulgent, and must be cut.

Other parts of that heterosexual relationship actually did inform the story.

Unless you're going to change everything and assume Snape was gay all along as well... But then that is no longer Harry Potter the books but la-la-land of fanfiction.

the Snape-Lily thing by itself can be identified as a theme in different parts.

 

[Politrukk]

The exact same way they establish every hetro couple?

I dunno, those are often pretty ham-fisted.

How are those Ham-fisted?

people never go "LOOK HE HAS A PENIS LOOK SHE HAS A VAGINA OMG THEY'RE MAKING OUT".

Heterosexual romance in movies is always just romance, that's what the portrayal of romance is as it existed for ages.

You honestly believe the Heterosexual nature of the romance is ham-fisted? how? do you have examples of this?

With gays we always for some reason have to point out that they're gays (apparently) now that's ham-fisted.

 

[happyninja42]

Happyninja42
Something Amyss


So now am I allowed to say they're doing it on purpose?
Or do we need to wait for another grand reveal that fits a certain denominator

Say whatever you want. I couldn't give a shit either way. You were allowed to say whatever you said before, being allowed to say something, isn't that same thing as being correct about it.

Not to mention that he was asked the question directly So I don't see how this is anything other than him simply answering the question. He didn't open a Q&A by saying his new cast was going to contain X% non-straight characters. Someone asked him, he answered.

Oh you can't deny that this doesn't further my point in the slightest it is actually a prime example of it.

My issue is that you imply it's on purpose, with some agenda, but seem to act like the heterosexual couplings is the default state for them. And that any deviation from the norm is some intentional plan to further some agenda. Not just simply "we'd like to have a *insert other social group that you seem to have issues with being represented* in the story. Again, he was directly asked by someone else, if there will be a gay character, and he responded. To say that "gee, in a galaxy spanning society, with billions upon billions of racial/species/gender people out there, that some of them might be gay, and that one of them might be shown in the movies" is somehow odd to you? I just don't fathom it. And even if you are right, that it is some grand conspiracy to un-white/un-straight Star Wars, so what? What does the ethnicity/sexuality of anyone in Star Wars have to do with Star Wars? It doesn't. So who cares if they are white/brown/blue-green/fur covered, and like having sex with whatever gender/species they like? So who cares if they decide to have one movie be more colorful? If the characters are well written, it doesn't matter at all.

Not a fan of Harry Potter, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Harry's parents sexuality has to be set in order to, you know, have Harry as a child.

Not the issue. The argument made was that sexual orientation has to inform the story, which means is must permeate the story with manifest effect. Under that standard, it doesn't matter that it's logical to assume his parents were male and female and procreated normally; it only matters that their sexual orientation is not an expression of J.K. Rowling's personal beliefs as woven into the story as a theme or metaphor, so by that rule, it is extraneous and self-indulgent, and must be cut.

Other parts of that heterosexual relationship actually did inform the story.

Unless you're going to change everything and assume Snape was gay all along as well... But then that is no longer Harry Potter the books but la-la-land of fanfiction.

the Snape-Lily thing by itself can be identified as a theme in different parts.

But that same plot element could just have easily been accomplished with Snape/James.

 

[hermes]

I would have said "who cares", but then I remember people saw a black stormtropper and lose their shit...

 

[Something Amyss]

people never go "LOOK HE HAS A PENIS LOOK SHE HAS A VAGINA OMG THEY'RE MAKING OUT".

Yeah, I'm yet to see that. Maybe straight people are watching different gays than I am?

 

[Gorrath]

It's Finn and Poe, right? I mean, every one of their interactions on screen had more sexual tension and romantic chemistry than Padme and Anakin.

I believe you are simply conflating them having any chemistry at all compared to Anakin/Padme with automatically being sexual chemistry.

This is an issue I have with the "Shipping Community" in general. They take any scrap of affection and chemistry between two characters, and blow it up into "They're totally going to bone each other's brains out!" levels of implication.

Finn lived his entire life, being brainwashed and conditioned to be a cold, merciless killer. Then, when he tries to reach out to someone to help him, he encounters someone who is quite friendly and willing to see him as an individual, hell Poe even gave him his name. He complimented him on his shooting skills, and in general, just acted like a decent, positive reinforcement model of how a human being should be, in direct contrast to the Order's faceless, emotionless upbringing. Of course he would develop some attachment to the guy.

Now sure, given how Hollywood handles emotional relationships, and the fact that the cues they usually use for lovers, are simply "we like each other and get along, and express emotion to each other", it's easy to just assume that it means they are hooking up. But in reality, people who aren't sexually attracted to each other, are capable of having this level of compassion and regard for each other.

Based on other replies in the thread, I'm not the only one that saw this. I mean, certainly Poe and Finn had a much closer relationship than Finn and Rey-Rey, and FinnxPoe barely knew each other. It's totally gotta be Finn and Poe.

Sure it could go that way, but I doubt it. Finn showed an equal amount of, if not more of, concern and regard for Rey over the course of the movie. He lied to the Resistance just to get a chance to rescue her from the Starkiller. A girl he knew barely more than Poe to be honest. So by the logic of "They've hung out and had chemistry", it should be Rey, simply due to level of involvement. I mean if we're just basing it off tropes and stuff like that, and not whether or not it makes narrative sense at all for them to hook up.

I suspect the gay character will be a new one entirely, most likely a supporting character introduced in 8. Hopefully it won't be a character like the Marovingian from Matrix Reloaded, where he's just there to be a Gatekeeper to plot knowledge, and is allowed to be foppish and flamboyant, while flirting with the heroes. I'd like for the character to be someone who's just there, doing their thing, and they just happen to say something like "I lost my husband on that planet when the Order destroyed it! So don't question my conviction to see them destroyed!" Or something similar.

It's really not that hard to write a good story, where the gender/ethnicity/sexual orientation of the protagonist isn't an important aspect of the story. John Scalzi did a great example of how it could be done with his novel "Lock-In". The protagonist has a name that is used for both women/men, is never referred to by gender or ethnicity, due to the nature of the story, and just does their thing. Scalzi even went as far as to have both a male and female narrator do the audiobook, just to have the variety of personal narrative. It's even got gay characters in it, and their gayness is hardly represented at all, because their true purpose to the story is based on who they actually are, and their involvement in the events of the narrative. It really is a fun book, and something of an eye opener for me. I was listening to it for the 2nd time, before I noticed that they never even hinted at the protagonist's ethnicity, until one specific point, and even that simply implies that he/she is of mixed ethnicity if anything.

I highly recommend it to anyone.

Wow, that's quite the reply. I was genuinely just taking the piss mate. I agree with you about the shipping community but it's not serious business, it's all just fanfiction (though some people do make it serious business, I know. OTP!!!!!) Hell, my circle of friends tease me and my best friend about being secretly gay for each other because we have a bromance going. It's all in good fun.

On a more serious note about "good" gay characters, I really liked Jessica Jones for this. It managed to show a character who was homosexual, not a good person, was not always a bad person and who's relationships with other women mattered heavily to the sub-plot. So not only did her homosexuality make a difference to the story, and she wasn't played as a stereotype, she could also have moments of being good or evil. She wasn't just some token gay character thrown in to show that gay people totally exist too. I thought it was some of the best handling of a gay character I've seen on TV ever.

I'll check out the book you suggest here, sound's interesting!