Jimquisition: Gamer Guys
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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Alright, stay vague, then. I'm just trying not to assume anything here.magicmonkeybars said:
As far as I gather Jim Sterling is hating on the haters in this vid. The people that gatekeep, and persecute, and divide people. The sort of gamer that excludes others vehemently, even though they aren't directly affected by newcomers, "posers," more casual fans, and/or people who are fans, but not the same way the dividers are.
The kind of people that hate those who want to be included in the hobby, yet aren't into the hobby to the same degree, or same ways.
The sort of person that actively tries to scare off newcomers for what ever reason.
The sort of person who won't accept a person they don't know at face value, and must test them, and harass them, and lable them.
A person can't really be accepted by the masses if they aren't willing to accept the masses they shun.
Jim flipped the genders to show males what it's like to be a woman in gaming.
That's what I took from the video. I dunno if you fit the description, or not.
I'm at a bit of a loss here. See, I liked your Idealization of Men episode, because it correctly communicated the one itch I couldn't get off of me about the non-stop comments about games objectifying women. I couldn't communicate it though, because I couldn't understand what I wanted to communicate. To me, all those men you call "ideal" sort of felt objectified to me before the episode, because I quite frankly do not connect with any of those male figures. I can't really connect with any character, to be honest; I'm a pessimist and even though I do recognize my outstanding and amazing set of privileges I was born into, I can't help but feel the flipside of everyone BEGGING people to recognize it: some of us already do, and in fact, do not enjoy being a part of them. I'm not saying I hate it, I'm saying I hate the bad parts of privilege, because it sets in stone expectations of you. It means you can't for the life of anything complain even once, because you're privileged. It always communicates to me like the people that tell depressed people "You have no right to be depressed, other people have it worse than you"! Well, fuck you then. You have no right to be happy because someone else is happier than you.
That was getting off topic, but what I meant was that your episode has allowed me to understand what it was about the industry that I disliked. And what we have to correct. This just seems to squash the surface issues by being sarcastic, not by trying to view it in depth. And that might work for some, but not for me. It's not that I am one of those that spout fake gamer girl whenever there is a girl that likes games. It's more of an inability to understand females. Zelda, even though so many tout that it is a sexist terrible series, has been the one consistent thing I've found most females feel attracted to. I like Anouma's idea of making Zelda playable. YAY! Go ahead, expand the series, tilt it on it's head, change it! Zelda needs that, it's kind of stagnated in a formula at this point. But why do you have to go pick on the past titles so much? Can you not just enjoy the damned games for what they are? Adventure? Games are not a babysitter; if you expect them to educate your kids, you will have a shitty time with your kids, so the excuse of it's bad for kids is not very valid.
I've a feeling I'm about to be attacked by someone on this forum, it happens a lot. But can someone please help me understand this issue? I just feel lost honestly. I feel like I can't understand it because it's just not something I can relate to; I'm not a girl, and I'm a privileged straight white male. I don't think I've ever been manipulated by females, although maybe I have and just blocked it. I'm just really confused TT__TT
SOMEONE HELP ME UNDERSTAND!!!
That was getting off topic, but what I meant was that your episode has allowed me to understand what it was about the industry that I disliked. And what we have to correct. This just seems to squash the surface issues by being sarcastic, not by trying to view it in depth. And that might work for some, but not for me. It's not that I am one of those that spout fake gamer girl whenever there is a girl that likes games. It's more of an inability to understand females. Zelda, even though so many tout that it is a sexist terrible series, has been the one consistent thing I've found most females feel attracted to. I like Anouma's idea of making Zelda playable. YAY! Go ahead, expand the series, tilt it on it's head, change it! Zelda needs that, it's kind of stagnated in a formula at this point. But why do you have to go pick on the past titles so much? Can you not just enjoy the damned games for what they are? Adventure? Games are not a babysitter; if you expect them to educate your kids, you will have a shitty time with your kids, so the excuse of it's bad for kids is not very valid.
I've a feeling I'm about to be attacked by someone on this forum, it happens a lot. But can someone please help me understand this issue? I just feel lost honestly. I feel like I can't understand it because it's just not something I can relate to; I'm not a girl, and I'm a privileged straight white male. I don't think I've ever been manipulated by females, although maybe I have and just blocked it. I'm just really confused TT__TT
SOMEONE HELP ME UNDERSTAND!!!
Do keep in mind I'm not trying to attack you when I asy this.IkeGreil29 said:
I recommend you watch earlier jimquisition Vids. He talks about the "fake gamer girl" issue, and, on multiple occassions, the sexism in the game industry, like "The Creepy Cull of Female Protagonists."
I kinda broke down the vid in a recent post in this thread.
Adding a bit to that, Imagine an event where you've been excluded. Now multiply that many times over, and add up how much it'd suck. That's generally what it's like to be on the recieving end of the gatekeepers.
About the Zelda issue, it's met an immense amount of resistance and hatred as illustrated in the comments of this article:
http://www.destructoid.com/gamers-urge-nintendo-for-a-playable-zelda-257454.phtml
I can't fully fathom some of the reasons people have against the idea of a playable Zelda short of the fear she'll get the "Princess Peach" treatment and get sent on a mission for a happy making vibe-sceptor using wild moodswings to make her journey, or treated like Samus in The Other M, which aughta speak for itself.
Honestly, every time we buy something advertised by a person deemed attractive, we've been manipulated, or we acted like the people who were manipulated. Either way, mission accomplished in that they got your money.
What's more is the silliness of it all. We're being exclusive here? Us? Nerds who have had a history of being excluded and singled out from the "cool" kids groups are trying to exclude people who are interested in our culture and new to it just because they don't have a long and established history in it? We should have been so lucky in school to have had people pretending to be like us. To be fair, I was a nerd and a jock (president of the chess club and wrestler/football), but my friends were certainly nerds and I saw how they were treated. But man, I can't imagine any one of them excluding someone for wanting to hang out with them or pretending to like the same things they like just to fit in.Phasmal said:
It's ridiculous. As I said earlier. Maybe this is similar to the person who farted blaming someone else first so that they don't get blamed themselves. Maybe it's the fake nerds trying to call other people fake early so that their friends know that they're true super-nerds.
Man... how that word, nerd, has changed in my lifetime.
Thank you, that actually sort of helps. I still feel lost though; what do gamer girls want?Rebel_Raven said:
The best example I got off this discussion was how I constantly feel uncomfortable around metalheads for maybe not coming across as intense enough. Most of my friends aren't, I've only got one good friend who is, but it always makes me so nervous I won't come across as the real deal. I guess it's kind of like that, the metal community can be rather cutthroat at times. If it's like that, then I don't really see the issue of games becoming more accepted by all areas of society. In fact, I feel like it needs to happen so that they're not seen as chastity belts and all the other negative associations society has with gaming.
Something just dawned on me... could it be that certain male gamers are dubious of gamer girls because they have been shunned romantically before by them, particularly because when in a relationship you're not expected to be absorbed by games 24/7? Maybe, just maybe?
What do gamer girls want? I cannot speak for them all, but largely the same thing gamer guys want, and often get as far as I'm concerned. Gamer Girls and gamer guys are two sides of the same gamer coin. Gamer Girls are people just like gamer guys. They're all as diverse as the other.IkeGreil29 said:
Your example about metalheads works well.
Personally I don't see the problem about games being widely accepted either, but that doesn't change the fact that people are actively being excluded, and there's people that support that exclusion which does cause problems. To say the least they aren't helping the image of the gamer improve.
A part of the negative associations with being a gamer won't go away, though. That part is the angry belligerent gamer. They use other gamers to vent on, and troll. They do this because there's not much that can be done in retalliation.v It's a sad fact of things that won't change until humanity does.
It's one thing to be dubious about the women that shunned them. It's another matter entirely to be dubious of women one just met, haven't met, and/or never will meet. That's just discriminating based on gender, to put it gently.
One one hand reactions like that are human nature to not be fond of what caused hurt. I get that.
On the other, one can always strive to rise above hating the many for the crimes of the few, or at least act like they have.
Not directly, still.Miroluck said:
And if you're going to monitor your own people, you should be prepared to police your own people. If you're gate keeping, but not taking account the trouble makers you already let in, then, well, it's a bad thing, isn't it?
The bad people will ruin the rep of your own people, and the people turned away certainly won't be able to help clean up the rep, will they? They'll be on the outside, looking in, remembering the monitors that treated them poorly, and see the loudest, most obnoxious, most noticeable of your own people, and largely unable to see the rest.
Bad reps are created through misunderstandings, lack of information, twisted truths, and exclusion. Keeping people in the dark will not help.
The gaming community fits in well with what I just said. Are the trolls, and jerks the majority? All the bigots, sexists, racists, etc.? Doesn't matter because they're the loudest, most obnoxious most noticeable people. The fewer people allowed in to say "there are lots of good people that are gamers" the more prominent this bad rep will remain.
Once there are enough people involved in the gaming community, there will be enough to officially kill the bad rep.
Is this still a thing?
I mean, I'm not pretending all the ill will and insular attitudes in some (not all) groups of male gamers went away overnight, but I had kind of gotten the impression that maybe the worst offenders had at least gotten the idea that complaining about "fake girl gamers" was a non-starter that wasn't going to score them points with anyone but a very small choir (of the "preaching to" variety.) And pretty much everyone else was going to say, "Oh, are we issuing membership cards now? Should I have a resume handy? Do you think you have particular qualifications by which you can include yourself and your friends and exclude anyone with an extra "x" chromosome willy-nilly"?
I get the point, it just feels like this was odd timing for an entire episode on the subject. Am I wrong? Have there been recent events suggesting this attitude is still widely prevalent? I'm not asking rhetorically; it seems from where I stand that this hasn't been front-and-center for a while. I could certainly be wrong.
I mean, I'm not pretending all the ill will and insular attitudes in some (not all) groups of male gamers went away overnight, but I had kind of gotten the impression that maybe the worst offenders had at least gotten the idea that complaining about "fake girl gamers" was a non-starter that wasn't going to score them points with anyone but a very small choir (of the "preaching to" variety.) And pretty much everyone else was going to say, "Oh, are we issuing membership cards now? Should I have a resume handy? Do you think you have particular qualifications by which you can include yourself and your friends and exclude anyone with an extra "x" chromosome willy-nilly"?
I get the point, it just feels like this was odd timing for an entire episode on the subject. Am I wrong? Have there been recent events suggesting this attitude is still widely prevalent? I'm not asking rhetorically; it seems from where I stand that this hasn't been front-and-center for a while. I could certainly be wrong.
I want games to be able to be part of someone's identity, certainly; I don't want gamer to become anyone who has played Angry Birds and Bejeweled. But I think movies went through a similar thing. They were at first mostly appreciated by certain people and have become one of the most popular things to do socially now. But there's still a boatload of movies that are made more for the people that like the intricacies of film. Much like that, I feel that games like Dark Souls and other more niche titles will be what "separates" people. Those titles have something to talk about though, unlike the constant regurgitation of similar titles that surround it. Kitsch movies are needed; sometimes you want to indulge in a Michael Bay style stupid film, just like sometimes an FPS is what will satisfy your gaming urge. Indie games are asking questions about gameplay and pushing the boundaries of it like indie films often do. They aren't the same, games and movies, but they're the newest form of media and I find it easier to compare them because of that.Rebel_Raven said:
Beligerent gamers I can handle. What I can't is the constant jokes made at the expense of the medium simply because of stupid associations.
Unspoken, unenforced divisions can be had pretty readily. You can take pride in the fact that you played games others haven't, but when you persecute those who haven't for whatever reasons, then the problem arises.IkeGreil29 said:
You're free to be dissapointed that others haven't taken an interest in what you have. You're free to disagree with what they have taken interest in, but it stops being okay when you start kicking people in the teeth over it. To be tolerated, you must be tolerable, and that means tolerating others.
At the worst, if you disagree with others, then just don't associate with them, and have no hard feelings, and get away before the hard feelings can arise.
Your identity is your own, just like as other's identities are there. It's a bit old fashioned, but treat peope the way you want to be treated.
As far as the whole problem with being seen in a negative light is that the people outside of that light are often in the dark. They lack information, and it'll take more than a few people saying "That bad rep is undeserved!" while keeping the people that are to be convinced are kept out, and/or mistreated.
Good luck playing bouncer against all the bad elements, douchebags, and the sort of your people. I mean that sincerely.Miroluck said:
Personally I'm convinced it's impossible to get rid of them due to human nature.
Still, we all fight our battles how we think we should.
And when one side has prevalent "extremes" and the other doesn't, that's false equivalence. That's not to say they don't exist, but trying to take the piss on a small group to show the other side of the intolerance of the mainstream looks inane and hypocritical.neonit said:
Well, a couple problems there:Lightknight said:
1. This isn't the same culture anymore. Whether or not you (or anyone else) likes it, video games have developed into a much larger community.
2. This is at the same time we're seeking legitimacy from the mainstream. And since you think women should expect gamers to behave like hostile basement-dwelling manchildren, I expect you agree that gamers should at the same time expect to be treated as hostile, basement-dwelling manchildren. I mean, it's only reasonable, right? I hope you've never been one of those folks to act like we should have legitimacy.
Numbered again for my sanity:
1. You just spent two paragraphs excusing, explaining and justifying a behaviour you don't believe is actually prevalent?
2. Examples have been given frequently, including this thread. I'm always wary of people who ask for evidence after evidence has been given. Perhaps you really did just saunter into the thread, but it seems suspect. Especially when you're already making excuses for the behaviour.
I'd also attest that the continuation of this thread largely hinges on such a mentality. I'm not sure what else people are protesting. Well, most people. Some people seem to be trying to skirt it.