Jimquisition: Go Fish

[surg3n]

Phil Fish will decide whether or not to make Fez2 on a daily basis - just because he tweeted something or wrote or said or got a damn tattoo saying something, doesn't really mean much.

He's the type of person who will just go underground and make it anyway, release it, and the cycle will start again.

Let's face it, the deciding factor between indie developer and hipster-indie developer, is success - any succesful developer has feedback to contend with, and Fish has never handled that well. The safest option is to only really communicate with people who know what they're talking about, other developers, *mature gamers (*in mindset), he has to filter out the 99.9% of comments from people who are stupid, jealous, trolling or just plain a-holes. Nobody said he had to be in a movie and be all over twitter, Fez would have been a success anyway.

 

[xPixelatedx]

-Snip-

They were not attacking the man, just giving their views on modern japanese games which is exactly what the guy asked. All of the designers are on record many times saying that they dislike modern games as a whole, not just japanese ones, but the question was narrowed to modern japanese games. Were these people supposed to lie about their views? I think most people stopped watching this video as soon as Fish said his thing given the amount of "what about Dark Souls?" comments popping up. His comments about Zelda are spot on.

The thing is, I do agree with what they said afterwards (especially about Zelda), and they are certainly welcomed to whatever opinion they want. That's not the issue. They didn't really elaborate much on western games either, they outright said Japanese games suck now and they should be "like ours". That's a pretty broad and sweeping generalization considering the amount of feces on both sides of the pond. But I digress, the point is that explaining your rational opinion after saying "You guyz suck man, lollollololol" while a fat guy points and laughs (all in front of a crowd) is moot. Sorry, the damage was already done.

Sure, he might have been jokingly acting like a gaping asshole at the start in a very crude attempt at humor, because that whole 'too cool for skool' shithead persona is popular in the western world. It is not however something most japanese people would understand, and you need to show some god damn curiosity when dealing with people not in on the joke. Otherwise you just look utterly despicable, and he did.

 

[Jofe]

The problem I always saw with Fish is the way he criticized anything. Most of the time he didn't build arguments. He just went the child's way and said "this fucking thing suck because I say so" nothing else. Every time he opened his mouth he did like an asshole and so its hard for me to feel sympathy for him. Sure all the abuse he got sucked, but most of the time he brought it himself. From what I've seen it feels that he always thought he was above the others, that everyone sucked in comparison and only he had the right answers. Sure Fez might be a good game (can't tell haven't played it) but that doesn't mean he can talk the way he does and expect everyone to shut up an kneel before him.

 

[zvate]

This was a good episode that had something to say

 

[WesternGamer]

-Snip-

They were not attacking the man, just giving their views on modern japanese games which is exactly what the guy asked. All of the designers are on record many times saying that they dislike modern games as a whole, not just japanese ones, but the question was narrowed to modern japanese games. Were these people supposed to lie about their views? I think most people stopped watching this video as soon as Fish said his thing given the amount of "what about Dark Souls?" comments popping up. His comments about Zelda are spot on.

The thing is, I do agree with what they said afterwards (especially about Zelda), and they are certainly welcomed to whatever opinion they want. That's not the issue. They didn't really elaborate much on western games either, they outright said Japanese games suck now and they should be "like ours". That's a pretty broad and sweeping generalization considering the amount of feces on both sides of the pond. But I digress, the point is that explaining your rational opinion after saying "You guyz suck man, lollollololol" while a fat guy points and laughs (all in front of a crowd) is moot. Sorry, the damage was already done.

Sure, he might have been jokingly acting like a gaping asshole at the start in a very crude attempt at humor, because that whole 'too cool for skool' shithead persona is popular in the western world. It is not however something most japanese people would understand, and you need to show some god damn curiosity when dealing with people not in on the joke. Otherwise you just look utterly despicable, and he did.

First, the question was about recent japanese games, not recent western games, so no one on the panel was required to go into how modern western games suck. If the question was about modern western games and they said the same thing, would they have to go into how modern japanese games suck as well, or is it only because the question was about japanese games? Second, Fish was the only one that stated japanese games need to catch up with the west and he stated the interfaces and technology was outdated. Blow stated things much more eloquently by explaining how he wanted things to go back to the way they were, in which Fish brought up the Zelda example. So sure, I'll give you that he is brash and his mouth probably works faster than his brain. He did apologize to the guy after it happened, though.

 

[Skeleon]

You might have a point here about his defenses being worn out, sort of.
I'll be honest, I only know of him from Fez, from his scuffle with McMillen and now from this story. If there was a constant stream of abuse, more than the few instances I'm aware of, you'd be right.
I wouldn't know whether there was, though.

 

[Something Amyss]

And I'd say if we are going to hold him to the frankly ridiculous standards of never rising to the harassment, then why don't we seem to apply those standards to ourselves?

I can't speak for you, but I do.

He certainly doesn't deserve much defense. He's an asshole, that much is undeniable. But the sheer magnitude of the recoil against him is ridiculous. It's as if he stomped the internet's foot and they responded by calling their friends and beating him with tire irons.

That's almost as hyperbolic as Fish himself.

I suppose it's a matter of opinion here. We can probably agree that Phil Fish was unkind and responded harshly to the people attacking him. Then again, the people attacking him were certainly no saints either. My view is that neither side was justified.

Nobody's pretending they're saints as far as I can tell. Well, to clarify, nobody's pretending the people harassing Blowfish are saints. Phil seems to think he's some poor martyr whose only crime is bringing enlightenment to the world or some shit, like if Prometheus brought asshattery to the world instead of fire. Like attracts like, and dicks tend to attract dicks.

In fact, it's even dumber of Blowfish to play martyr in the context of the internet because he waded into the lion's den, punched a couple of lions, and then complained about the results. That was really stupid.

And if we're applying that idea of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", it does go both ways. We shouldn't be an asshole to Fish simply because he was an asshole. There are a lot more of us than him. And we can be much bigger assholes.

So we shouldn't bully a bully because there are more bullies and he might get bullied more than he bullied others.

Meh. I'm not going to bully him, I'm not going to pay him much mind outside of these threads. At the same time, none of those bullies are complaining that they're innocent bystanders defending themselves, far as I can tell. They're simply being dicks in response to a dick, an expected result if you have any grasp on reality whatsoever. Apparently, Blowfish does not.

Yes, "do unto others" works both ways, but people aren't quitting gaming because of Blowfish. He's quitting because of them. When he was utterly shit to people, even before he had a big hit hipster game to his name. It sucks that people are shitty to one another on the internet. And the real world. But it sucks a lot less when someone who is a complete dick to people gets treated like a dick by more people.

I don't get the mentality of being a combative dick and then whining that people are being mean to you. Complaining about abuse when you heap on abuse is stupid and hypocritical and just a touch sociopathic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHPmkf8PHLA

And that video is delicious in the way he lacks self-awareness.

"Get with the times!"

Says the guy whose only real claim to fame plays on the nostalgia of retro gaming.

Oh wait, I should probably claim neither side is a saint. That dude who asked the question was totally asking for it. It takes two to tango, after all.

 

[TheUnbeholden]

I'll put this out right now, Beer's remarks are childish, in poor taste, easily forgettable and reminiscent of a 3 year old in a 30 year old's body. It was tactless, rude, insulting, abrasive, I could go on and on. To summarize, it was something that could have certainly been handled better.

But he's not wrong.


This is where the differences between Jim's previous issues and what Mr. Fish has been going through come to light. The backlash toward Jim's reviews (which was the primary source of the vitriol he talks about) are poorly worded disputes about his opinion. Rarely if ever has Jim personally attacked the people who makes the game he reviews. He's blunt and honest about his opinions about the games themselves, but only in his editorials has he ever made disparaging remarks toward people, and those are not without cause.

Phil Fish on the other hand I see as no different than a hollywood celebrity. He feels the world revolves around him, and he loves to be in the limelight and all eyes on him. But only on his terms. Say something that is not showering him with praise or ask him something that isn't promoting his new project, no matter how benign it is, and expect to be lashed out at and treated like scum and garbage because how dare you say something not worshiping him. Fish does have a thick skin for how long he's put up with it, but to be honest he does not take criticism well, regardless of how it's delivered. Yes the internet is a spiteful, hateful place. But putting someone who's saying that the game you made is not perfect in the same pool as the people calling for rape and murder does not help your image. Yes, the net is hostile to Fish, but to be honest he's no innocent victim in this.

One last thing. A number of people are saying how it's a travesty etc that Fish is leaving and he is sorely needed. I disagree. Fish's ideas are sorely needed. Not the man himself. If he kept behind the scenes and worked on the games themselves, a number of issues could have been resolved. But facing the world means you accept both the good and the bad. That is something Fish needs to learn.

Yeah. I don't mean to sound like a harsh bastard, but assholes deserve whatever bad mouthing they get. Yeah death threats/insults/fags trying to fuck you, it sucks but I don't pay any mind. I prove my worth through my strength. That is worth more than any words.

If Phil Fish is strong than he will come back and perhaps be better man for it. If he doesn't than he's weak. If he comes back but still has the exact same attitude then hes building a bigger glass house, and things will be a whole lot worse than it was before.

First off Jim. Stay with us for a long time please. You are a huge source of entertainment for me.

But I have to disagree on a point. The reason people tell other people like Fish to have a thicker skin is precisely because they talk a lot of shit themselves, for the most part. This is totally true of Fish.
Do onto others... If you put yourself out there with ridiculous comments and attack people and things, you have to expect a certain amount of flak back.
You only need a thick skin if you're a bit of a prick. You rarely see Super Meat Boy's developers in such altercations and they rarely have abuse hurled at them in the same way Fish had. No way near as much as Fish. Heck I don't even know their names off the top of my head.
It's simple maths. If you have strong opinions and you vocalise them, expect people to do the same right back at you.

Everyone who creates something for public consumption will get criticism. Fish on the other hand created a lot of hatred for himself by his own merits.

I don't want Fish out of the industry or anything remotely like that. I don't wish him harm etc. I'm pretty blasé on that subject. He made games and kicked up a fuss now and again and had tantrums. If he makes another game then good. If not, he doesn't.

Good show even though I don't really agree entirely with your vibe on this particular issue

Thats what came to my mind as well. Thickskin is only necessary if you are a arrogant bastard, where not only can you take any amount of bullshit, but you take enjoyment out of getting people mad and are more than willing to get violent if it comes to that. There are some people however, whom are primadona's, hollywood pricks that love being the center of attention and getting their ass kissed regardless of how much of a piece of shit they are to everyone but their dog. This is Phil Fish. He got his glasshouse broken and now he can gets to cry, boo fucking hoo. Death threats is nothing compared to getting beaten up or starving on the streets, having your family killed by drug dealers. Words are not real.
He does not get sympathy for that.

 

[Mr_Terrific]

You can hate Fish all you like but the bottom line is this...

Fish makes games.

He has made another game other than Fez?

He was in the process of making Fez 2 so I believe that qualifies as games. Not even sure if you're serious...

 

[VanQ]

I really liked this episode. While I can see past the persona in the normal videos in order to "get the message" I find it really engaging when you speak normally without the ranting or script. You should do talks at conventions and stuff.

In regards to the content of the video, I think the problem lies with that when you are typing words at a screen rather than speaking to somebody face to face it is difficult to see them as a person with emotions. While I strive to be fairly polite online, I realise that I can come across as incredibly snarky at times, considerably more so than I ever would in reality, and I occasionally have to remind myself that it really isn't fair to the person on the receiving end.

Some people are simply incapable of the introspection required to notice it, or are surrounded by like minded individuals to the point where that kind of behaviour seems normal. So when they get it pointed out to them they get defensive, because they cannot see what they are doing wrong.

I think a lot of this is down to the internet still being in it's "infancy". People haven't really evolved a proper etiquette for speaking to people online like we do in reality. As such people are much more likely to be a lot ruder than they would be to be people face to face.

Although I have never received the kind of hate people such as yourself and Fish have, to a smaller extent I sometimes get the same kind of feeling when I log onto here and see I have been quoted. Especially if it has been in a heated debate or a controversial topic. I normally ask myself "So who is going to take issue with my opinion now?" and feel reluctant to read what they have said.

So I can only imagine what it must be like for people who get actual harassment.

To be entirely fair, Fish gave no such heed to any form of etiquette in the way he addressed that Japanese freelance game programmer. I'm not sure if you've seen the way he spoke to that guy - and I don't care for or about his opinion itself - but it's not a stretch to believe that he might deserve a little back. Maybe not as much as he got, but he certainly deserved some form of comeuppance.

What I'm saying is, I can see where Jim is coming from and I can see where you're coming from. I don't think Fish needs a "thicker skin" or anything like that. I just think he got what he dished out thrown right back at him tenfold and that maybe he did actually deserve a little of it. He acted like a total douche in front of a global audience, he should have expected that maybe more than just one or two would react to his - to be quite frank - racist and ignorant remarks. And everything I said goes for John Blow as well for that matter. They're both disrespectful jerks.

Edit: In case you haven't seen his behaviour:

Spoiler

He's actually actively been getting these videos taken down, I had to find a reupload.

 

[TheUnbeholden]

-Snips-

I can't say he deserves better, but then I feel it is far beyond me to judge such a thing.

And I'd say if we are going to hold him to the frankly ridiculous standards of never rising to the harassment, then why don't we seem to apply those standards to ourselves?

Thats because we don't have the power of fame, the disadvantage of fame is the responsibility to uphold a good image.

The advantage of being little people like us, is we get to act with reckless abandon.

Even if he acted like an asshole quite often, I certainly would sympathize with him more than the mobs of anonymous assholes insulting and threatening him. He may have brought it upon himself, but it's still not nice to see anyone suffer such harassment and it's hard to see the people insulting and/or judging him as any better themselves.

Sympathize with him more? Why would want to sympathize with him in the first place. An asshole who gets hate, is still an asshole. It doesn't suddenly make him sympathetic unless something life threatening happened.

 

[Legion]

To be entirely fair, Fish gave no such heed to any form of etiquette in the way he addressed that Japanese journalist. I'm not sure if you've seen the way he spoke to that guy - and I don't care for or about his opinion itself - but it's not a stretch to believe that he might deserve a little back. Maybe not as much as he got, but he certainly deserved some form of comeuppance.

What I'm saying is, I can see where Jim is coming from and I can see where you're coming from. I don't think Fish needs a "thicker skin" or anything like that. I just think he got what he dished out thrown right back at him tenfold and that maybe he did actually deserve a little of it. He acted like a total douche in front of a global audience, he should have expected that maybe more than just one or two would react to his - to be quite frank - racist and ignorant remarks.

To be honest, I haven't really been following it that closely, but from what I have seen Fish appears to be one of those people who "Can dish it out, but can't take it" so if people behave badly back towards him then he shouldn't be too surprised. It's one thing to complain about being mistreated when you have done nothing wrong, but quite another to complain about it when you are willing to do it to other people.

The people of the internet are not particularly good at showing restraint though, and quite often it can get worked up to the extent where people go way too far. In this case from what I have seen, people have gone overboard which is wrong, but when it comes down to it I think people in general just need to take a step back and realise how they may come across. As with Fish, as you said he should have expected at least some kind of negative reaction to the things he has said.

 

[KDR_11k]

The issue I have with Fish is that he was pretty loud and purposefully controversial ("All Japanese games suck"). That makes people hate you.

 

[mjc0961]

My problem with Fish isn't that he needed thicker skin simply because he released a game. It's that he could dish it out and can't take it. I have a hard time finding any pity for him whining about how he can't deal with the hate anymore when almost everything that came out of his mouth and/or keyboard was hate. I can't bring myself to care that people threatened to kill him when he first told Beer to kill himself. I'm not too bothered when people bash his game after hearing how he bashed pretty much every Japanese game developer.

Fish doesn't need thicker skin just because he got "famous". He needs thicker skin because he decided that what he was going to do with his fame was become a massive internet bully, and if you're going to be the kind of person who decides to do that, you ought to have skin thick enough

Not that I support or defend all the people who bullied him back. It would be nice if everyone would just stop being internet bullies or at the very least stop with the death threats and the "go kill yourself"s because it's just uncalled for no matter the circumstances of the fight. It's just that Fish is no better than the people who bullied him. They're all pretty scummy people from where I'm viewing this thing, but Fish is just bully got bullied and couldn't stand the taste of his own medicine anymore. I have no pity for him and I don't care if he comes back.

But if he does come back, I would hope that he would take into account how much he didn't enjoy being bullied and stop being a bully himself should he return to game development and the public eye.

You can hate Fish all you like but the bottom line is this...

Fish makes games.

He has made another game other than Fez?

He was in the process of making Fez 2 so I believe that qualifies as games. Not even sure if you're serious...

Fez 2 wasn't finished yet and as far as we can see right now never will be finished, so Fish made a game. Not games. A game.

Not sure why it matters but if you want to get into semantics, he made one single game, not multiple games.

 

[WesternGamer]

I really liked this episode. While I can see past the persona in the normal videos in order to "get the message" I find it really engaging when you speak normally without the ranting or script. You should do talks at conventions and stuff.

In regards to the content of the video, I think the problem lies with that when you are typing words at a screen rather than speaking to somebody face to face it is difficult to see them as a person with emotions. While I strive to be fairly polite online, I realise that I can come across as incredibly snarky at times, considerably more so than I ever would in reality, and I occasionally have to remind myself that it really isn't fair to the person on the receiving end.

Some people are simply incapable of the introspection required to notice it, or are surrounded by like minded individuals to the point where that kind of behaviour seems normal. So when they get it pointed out to them they get defensive, because they cannot see what they are doing wrong.

I think a lot of this is down to the internet still being in it's "infancy". People haven't really evolved a proper etiquette for speaking to people online like we do in reality. As such people are much more likely to be a lot ruder than they would be to be people face to face.

Although I have never received the kind of hate people such as yourself and Fish have, to a smaller extent I sometimes get the same kind of feeling when I log onto here and see I have been quoted. Especially if it has been in a heated debate or a controversial topic. I normally ask myself "So who is going to take issue with my opinion now?" and feel reluctant to read what they have said.

So I can only imagine what it must be like for people who get actual harassment.

To be entirely fair, Fish gave no such heed to any form of etiquette in the way he addressed that Japanese freelance game programmer. I'm not sure if you've seen the way he spoke to that guy - and I don't care for or about his opinion itself - but it's not a stretch to believe that he might deserve a little back. Maybe not as much as he got, but he certainly deserved some form of comeuppance.

What I'm saying is, I can see where Jim is coming from and I can see where you're coming from. I don't think Fish needs a "thicker skin" or anything like that. I just think he got what he dished out thrown right back at him tenfold and that maybe he did actually deserve a little of it. He acted like a total douche in front of a global audience, he should have expected that maybe more than just one or two would react to his - to be quite frank - racist and ignorant remarks. And everything I said goes for John Blow as well for that matter. They're both disrespectful jerks.

Edit: In case you haven't seen his behaviour:

Spoiler

He's actually actively been getting these videos taken down, I had to find a reupload.

Holy crap, quit the melodramatic japanophile garbage, nothing he said was racist. Both Blow and Fish have been on record as to there disgust for most of modern gaming, not just japanese games. The question was about modern japanese games, so they answered the question. They never needed to talk about western games, which Blow did include. Sure Fish could have opened up his response better, but his point was valid about Zelda.

 

[Lightknight]

You can hate Fish all you like but the bottom line is this...

Fish makes games.

He has made another game other than Fez?

He was in the process of making Fez 2 so I believe that qualifies as games. Not even sure if you're serious...

Fez took five years to make. Fez 2 was announced last month for the first time. I'd hardly say he makes games. I was asking the question both in jest but also in case there was a game I was unaware of. Since there's not, I'd say he is a person who has made a game and not a person who makes games. Not yet. As is, a one-hit-wonder, taking his money and running.

I'm not saying Fez wasn't a good game. It was/is. I'm not saying he's not capable of producing another. Just correcting a statement for clarification.

 

[Lunar Templar]

So? If he didn't want the abuse he should have had a better filter on his pie hole. I don't and won't pretend to know all the shit he got, but seems like most of it, that I heard about anyway, was in response to him running his mouth, when he hadn't earned the right.

Phil Fish is not Hideo Kojima, Shigro Miyamoto or even a Cliff Blizitsky or Peter ... >.> not even gonna try, the guy that made Fable. He's just some guy who made one game and started running his mouth like he was 'teh b3st th1ng evar!!!' with out having actually proved it, and I have a problem with that.

So do I care his 'feeling got hurt and his gonna take his toys and go home'? lol, no, 'nothing of value lost' I say.

 

[Something Amyss]

Both Blow and Fish have been on record as to there disgust for most of modern gaming, not just japanese games.

And yet, they managed to justify why it was specifically Japanese games that were an issue right in that clip. Not just "since you asked about Japanese games," but "this is why it's different."

 

[Nieroshai]

The thing is, he was an abrasive person to begin with, often insulted other developers, and only did one thing yet acted like we should care who he is. Thereby, he IS "a f*ng hipster," at least as far as onlookers are concerned. Should people stop being an ass to him? Yes. Does one usually call down criticism and anger by insulting others and acting like the top dog? Yes.

 

[Nieroshai]

This was a good episode that had something to say

This was a good comment that had something to say. And will not be flagged for low content.