Jimquisition: Go Fish

[SageRuffin]

My problem isn't with Fish needing a thicker skin.
I just have no sympathy because every time I heard him make a statement, he's acting like a ponce.

Summed up nicely mate. Seems to me Jim is ignoring the fact Phil Fish acted like a knob head as if somehow all this abuse and hate he was getting was because of objective opinions. No, he was trying to get a rise out of people. He made disgusting comments right up until his demise. Good riddance.

Be that as it may, it still does negate the fact that scores of people are both sides seem to do nothing but spew massive vitriol over the slightest thing they don't like. For fuck's sake, there's a news story about one of the members of BlOps2's development team getting very similar threats and insults simply because he was trying the game a little more fair for everyone. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/126301-Call-of-Duty-Developer-Gets-Death-Threats-After-New-Patch]

Fish may be a jackass of the highest caliber, but come on. Wishing death upon him for that is just silly. And I'm not even gonna try and play the white knight here; as far as I'm concerned, CliffyB can go fuck himself, but that's where my anger ends. I don't want him dead... maybe a roundhouse to the temple, but that's about it.

By all means, if you don't like Fish, continue to not like him; I'm not trying to tell you otherwise. But actively wishing death on someone who honestly doesn't deserve it is just mean[footnote]I'm not saying that you or the person you quoted are making death threats. I'm simply making a general statement on the matter.[/footnote].

Edit: Jacked up my syntax up there. Fixed it so it made proper sense.

 

[Sofus]

Never heard of this Phil Fish guy before. I do however have to wonder why he even cares (cared?) what people thinks (thought?) of him and what he does (did?).

Which reminds me, you used to be somewhat arrogant and self-centered Jim... well, that was atleast the impression I got when I first watched one of your videos quite some time ago. That luckely changed at some point, and now you seem much more like a normal human being who actually has som interesting stuff worth listening to.

Anyway, most comments on the internet aren't worth reading, and even fever are worth remembering... my own included.

 

[evilcorgi]

this is one of the rare occassions where i can agree with jim.

mobbing, even against the most evil and/or douchiest kind of people isn't justified.

This is why I DON'T go on twitter.

that applies to all of the internet.

dicks will be dicks.

maybe we should create a decency or shame module for internet users....

I have two issues with this proposed policy. One basically goes along the lines of "muh free speech". I don't think anyone should be censored or shamed for having the wrong opinion, or saying it in the wrong way. The second is the recent uprising of trolls. First of all, let me get this rant about the word "troll" in. No, troll does NOT mean "somebody I don't like". No, it does NOT mean "somebody who doesn't like me". No, it does NOT mean "A rude person" or "A racist person" or "A bigoted person. A troll is someone who intentionally acts stupid, hateful, or in some other unpopular manor to provoke a funny reaction. Now, on with my post. I can't tell you how often I see people on YouTube and Reddit naively respond seriously to obvious trolls. Someone will go to any random gaming video or thread, and say something along the lines of "lolol so gey le call of dute modern warfare is better fags", obvious stuff that wouldn't last an hour on any respectable forum, but it still gets bombarded with people trying to debate him, or insult him, or act fanboyish, which is exactly what they want! By adopting this "decency or shame" policy, we'd be opening the door for opportunistic trolls to abuse it by intentionally acting indecent around people who act in an immature or funnily intelligent way. The kid (and the more-than-likely like-minded people he associates with) to try to shame him according to policy, so they'll trip all over their own feet, giving the troll the amusement he originally sought. All in all, not a good idea at all if you ask me.

 

[Strain42]

Phil Fish made a game called Fez. I did not care for it very much. I thought it was alright at best, not much else I can say about it. It was enjoyable enough, but nothing to write home about. I'd give it maybe a 6 or 7 out of 10. I enjoyed it enough to where I wasn't going online to complain about it, or insult its creator, and if I'd ever met Phil Fish I probably would have told him that I thought he'd made a pretty good game and shake his hand. I harbored no ill will towards the man, wished him good luck in his career. I really had very few negative things to say about him or his game.

Now obviously the entire internet isn't like me, but I'm willing to guess this is how a LOT of gamers would feel if Fish had just been known as "the guy who made Fez."

But then one day I see one of his tweets where without any provocation, without any reason, just because it's something that popped into his head that he felt was important enough for his thousands of followers to read... (I'm paraphrasing because I'm too lazy to look up the actual quote)

"Anybody who is still buying Nintendo hardware is either socially underdeveloped or emotionally stunted. Or both."

...Now that's just kind of a mean thing to say. If he doesn't like Nintendo consoles, that's fine, but why feel the need to suddenly insult so many people so gratuitously?

This developer who I don't know, and who certainly doesn't know me just said that I had social and/or emotional problems based solely on the fact that I was looking forward to Shin Megami Tensei IV or Ace Attorney Dual Destinies, and I like my 3DS.

I would never go as far as to send death threats or tell him to kill himself. I personally hate that right now we seem to be in a community where the vast majority of us think that's no big deal and is just "talkin' smack."

But hey, this guy just said something that wasn't directed at me personally, but was clearly talking about someone like me that insulted me, and I don't thinks so unreasonable that I get offended by that and maybe want to say he's being an asshole.

If Phil Fish didn't want people to call him an asshole, maybe he shouldn't have insulted so many people so needlessly. I know that as someone in the spotlight in this community, there's no way to eliminate all of the random abuse from total strangers, but I think most of here can agree there is a lot that Fish himself could have done to prevent a fairly large amount of it.

If people are going to egg you in the street, maybe wear a poncho. Don't leave the poncho at home and start yelling that the people who aren't throwing eggs probably throw like sissies and think that won't backfire on you...

Also off topic, but have there been any articles in this whole debacle with the headline "Beer Battered Fish." because that's all I can ever think about when I hear about this stuff >_>

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Discourage an artist, criticise him, and you give him a challenge to overcome. Critics ripped the shit out of Cop Out. And you know what Smith did? He then went and made Red Tape, his best film in years.

although i do agree on this opinion, if you don't challenge and question an "artist", then their work has a higher chance of being meaningless junk. Plus people need to get it under their skin that opinions will come at you left and right no matter what you do in life, learn to observe and absorb if deemed necessary.

I was actually about to say something myself, but you beat me to it, gmaverick. I will say this much though: never discourage a person from creating. But by all means, please criticize them, question them, challenge them, inspire them to get better. There are few things in this world that require the same amount of passion as modern-day liberal arts, and if you active discourage a person from creating and tell them to go kill themselves (extreme, I know), he or she just might.

Or maybe I'm tripping. I don't believe that the "You suck" method of reinforcement is a very good teaching tool, that's for fuck's sure.

very true, there is a right and a wrong way going about things, and many people (in a trollish manner) take the latter rather than former, and death threats are pretty fucking extreme/beyond what is needed to get your opinion across. hell at my work we openly criticize each other all the time, but we still function amazingly because we don't act like a ponce about it, this is something critics/fans/devs and hell even pubs need to realize.

 

[1Life0Continues]

Can pretty much be expanded to everyone on the internet.

As for Fish, I don't know the whole story, I only know his previous words and actions in the past. The man is a smug, self-righteous, antagonistic prick. He believes himself above the common people (whether or not this is true in reality is up for debate, but judged primarily through his words and actions, it certainly is true on the internet) and has consistently been abrasive to anyone that doesn't bow to him.

But he's still human. He needs to be given some PR education, or at the very least told to keep his mouth shut, and he likely needs to have some therapy for his attitude. Perhaps investigate the likelihood that he has a mental illness of some type. Either way, the backlash to Fish is both well deserved and over the top.

Fish taking a break is a good thing. Fish leaving the industry is not. People bad-mouthing Fish is going to happen, since he's painted a giant target on himself in the past, but acting like a spoiled child isn't going to endear himself to the world. Give him some help on dealing with his position, and then let him get back to doing what he's good at: making games.

 

[ciasteczkowyp]

Who cares how fish quit and what made him quit ? All the rage is about him being a d1ck to others over ze internetz.

 

[FloodOne]

You know which developer has a loud mouth, isn't afraid to speak his mind, and didn't quit because of it?

David Jaffe.

The difference is, Jaffe always framed his opinions as opinions, not statements. Jaffe never went out and kicked the hornet's nest (at least, as far as I remember.)

And Jaffe never went into forums and called the customers nerds who fail at making any kind of difference.

 

[daxterx2005]

Jim, you're a cool guy. I couldn't even imagine someone insulting you....

 

[john heerens]

Some people are simply incapable of the introspection required to notice it, or are surrounded by like minded individuals to the point where that kind of behaviour seems normal. So when they get it pointed out to them they get defensive, because they cannot see what they are doing wrong.

I think a lot of this is down to the internet still being in it's "infancy". People haven't really evolved a proper etiquette for speaking to people online like we do in reality. As such people are much more likely to be a lot ruder than they would be to be people face to face.

I quoted you because yours was the first post in the thread that seemed both reasonable and empathic.

I personally have suffered a great amount of bullying, both in cyberspace and in the real world. I find that in my opinion it doesn't so much come down to online etiquette, rather then that it is even easier to get away with things. People bully other people to feel better about themselves and their insecurities, often when confronted with how much they hurt the other person they will blow it off by saying he's being a whino or a baby. They don't see anything wrong with their behavior. Real or virtual. You can probably draw conclusions from people's reactions in even this topic, about who is prone to cyber-bullying.

I know for a fact though that people don't blow up, and stop doing the thing they love if they are not dealing with some serious pain. That most people online will call him more names rather then empathize with this, is sad to me.

I don't agree with what he said about hoping the other guy committing suicide and I sincerely hope that when he calms down he will apologize for this.

Remember that it is easy to judge others while we can never have any clue of what they are really going through.

Kind regards

 

[Laser Priest]

Glad to hear someone making this point, even if I personally dislike Phil Fish.

Still, I think it's less of a "thick skin" thing and more the fact that Phil Fish was one of those people who felt that he needed to fight back against internet assholes and decided that the best way to do that was to be an asshole on the internet. I sympathize with him more than the idiots sending him death threats, but I don't sympathize with him much. I think he's being rather over-dramatic with quitting the whole industry over it, but I think it goes more to show how awful gamers can be than it shows anything about Phil.

Even if I don't have much respect or admiration for the man, I'm hoping he'll be able to turn around and get the resolve to return to the industry.

 

[Laser Priest]

Who cares how fish quit and what made him quit ? All the rage is about him being a d1ck to others over ze internetz.

He quite because a veritable shit-ton of people were being "d1cks" to him over "ze internetz". Let's not try to totally dehumanize someone because he tends to be an asshole. He had a career in game development and he left because of the sheer amount of harassment he was getting. Even if he acted like a total scumbag sometimes - and he did - I still think it's really sad to see something like this happen.

 

[Lilani]

I specifically said in the video I *wasn't* taking sides. This was purely about the assertion that Phil is weak or thin-skinned for leaving the industry. It wasn't about him vs. Marcus. I like the pair of them.

I think Marcus misstepped when he turned a criticism of Blow/Fish's attitudes into personal insults. I think Phil misstepped when he reacted to it the way he did. I think the pair of them wasted what could have been a lovely Saturday making each other and themselves feel bad, and I hope they both continue to do the things they love, with less of the things they hate.

This is completely unrelated, but I just wanted to say that I always end up reading what you write in your voice and accent, with all the little pauses and inflections. I find it endearing and just a bit strange, lol.

 

[xPixelatedx]

People don't think he should have a "thicker skin" because he makes games. People think he should have a thicker skin because he's an infamous ass who dished out just as much as he took. I realize he gets poked at a lot, but I believe people shouldn't cause more trouble then they are willing to receive. That said, Fish's skin should have been infinitely-thick. If there is one thing that I cannot stand, it's someone acting dickish to just about everyone, but also expecting to be handled delicately in returned. That, to me, comes off as an individual who feels they deserve to live a privileged life. Even if he didn't instigate this particular squabble, the guy was far from a saint. Your constant use of the word "abuse" makes me feel you are (perhaps subconsciously) attempting to paint him as a victim in all this, maybe even because what he has endured seems so similar to your situation. It's not though.

Jim, I feel for you. You might get under some people's skin, and you might have gotten a LOT of hate for that, but everyone you've spoken badly about was certainly calling for it. More often then not, you are speaking up for the little guy; the person who can't defend themselves that well. Fish on the other hand, he'd happily stomp his foot on that same demographic.
I'm sorry, but we're supposed to feel bad for this guy? This is the guy who was "abused" by the internet...? I mean, hell, I even agree with what they elaborated on later in that video, but the way they initially answered... holy shit. The pointing and laughing, the smugness and the general lack of humanity in all this was staggering. That poor bastard who asked the question probably didn't even fully understand what was happening, it was obvious he understood very little English. Rather then use any kind of tact or consideration, they saw his fumbling over English words as a weakness and attacked him as brutally as possible, in front of a crowd of people and cameras no less. Fish and his friends made themselves out to be the most despicable kinds of human beings, and I actually applaud the internet for showing him the same kind of empathy in return. It's called Karma.

 

[beniki]

It's a product of over-saturation of communication.

Whereas before, only the truly dedicated to praise or criticism could comment, now it's widely available to everyone. Since it takes less effort to comment, people put less effort into the comment.

So when you look at all the insults and criticisms thrown your way, you need to remember, that most people left their brains behind once they clicked the 'Post reply' button.

With that in mind, I will make sure that my own brain in engaged whenever I post a comment, and not get caught up in the delirium of communication intoxication.

 

[Laser Priest]

-Snip-

I think this is a case of "an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind" here. Except it ends with the whole world being assholes to each other. If we're not going to act like he was a victim, we certainly can't act as if the people threatening to rape and murder his family were justified. Yes, he was an asshole. Yes, people were assholes to him. Is there karma for them? If that is in the form of people being assholes, will those people have karma after them?

Phil Fish certainly was not a nice man, I will not deny that. He seems like he was awful to a lot of people, but then it seems that many more people were much, much worse to him. He was a victim here, but he wasn't the only victim and he wasn't only a victim. The comments he made were not justified, nor was the sheer magnitude of hate he received. I won't deny that he was in the wrong, but the people insulting and threatening him certainly aren't in the right.

 

[MB202]

Jim talked about Phil Fish in an earlier episode of the Jimquisiton as well. It basically talked about how Mr. Fish said some not-so-nice things about Japanese game developers, and Jim was talking about how, for some people, that might effect some players views on Fez, regardless of the actual content in Fez. Now, this feels like a less extreme example of "LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!!!" And, well, yeah, I can totally understand that. Speaking for myself, I totally would not be able to handle all the vile comments and insults thrown at me. For some people, ignoring or dismissing this kind of stuff is easy, but for others, it's not. And I think those who tell Phil Fish and the like to "grow up" or "deal with it" are really being insensitive of the matter. Sensitive... Now there's something the gaming community seems as far away from being as ever!

 

[Johnson McGee]

I don't really know much about Fish and haven't seen what's been going on to drive such a spirited narrative, but unless Mr. Fish was the only one working on Fez 2 I think he's being incredibly selfish by putting a bunch of people out of work (friends and co-workers no less). If people were harassing him that badly a better response would be to lock down his online presence and take an extended vacation.

All assuming that this threat to stop Fez 2 is actually true. I find it hard to believe one person could make that decision in even a small company with no one else being able to do anything about it.

 

[Magmarock]

This was pretty much what I was thinking when I found out about Phill's drama. I'd also like to point out that when a company like EA or Activision gets criticized there aren't really hard feelings even for the people who work for it because it's a huge company with millions of dollars. However someone like Fish is one man who stands alone against this sort of thing. But hey Fez is on GOG so I guess he has the same opinion on DRM as I do, I hope he gets back into it and I think he will in the end.

 

[Something Amyss]

You know which developer has a loud mouth, isn't afraid to speak his mind, and didn't quit because of it?

David Jaffe.

The difference is, Jaffe always framed his opinions as opinions, not statements. Jaffe never went out and kicked the hornet's nest (at least, as far as I remember.)

And Jaffe never went into forums and called the customers nerds who fail at making any kind of difference.

And Jaffe, the asshat he is, has never tried to frame himself as a poor innocent victim.

To my knowledge, anyway. I can't say as I pay him much mind.

Who cares how fish quit and what made him quit ? All the rage is about him being a d1ck to others over ze internetz.

He quite because a veritable shit-ton of people were being "d1cks" to him over "ze internetz". Let's not try to totally dehumanize someone because he tends to be an asshole. He had a career in game development and he left because of the sheer amount of harassment he was getting. Even if he acted like a total scumbag sometimes - and he did - I still think it's really sad to see something like this happen.

I wouldn't say I'm dehumanising him, but I can't feel bad that someone who could dish it out but not take it left a business which is the only reason people paid attention to him in the first place. If he had ragequit from Twitter in other circumstances, nobody would care. Similarly, I don't see why differing circumstances don't make for different results. A guy who wades into fight after fight like your typical keyboard warrior should expect more flak than someone whose only crime is making games. The rage over the CoD nerf is directed at someone who probably wasn't even solely responsible for the change people hate. Blowfish's comments are the direct source for the hatred he gets. He strikes me as the internet version of Gollum--a sad little creature who is more than happy to be an evil little shit until he bites off more than he can chew, and then ERMAGERD, TAKE PITY ON POAR MISRUBLE Gollum Ghurgee Blowfish!

By way of example, I read a story about a white dude who got knocked out recently by a black dude. The white guy got up in a black couple's face, saying that "niggers" like them were why he lost his job. He got his ass knocked out for his trouble. Now, maybe the guy deserves some pity. He was an unemployed man drunk off his ass, but then, what is the expectation when you aggressively get in someone's face?

At the very least, let me phrase it this way: why does he deserve better behaviour than he himself displays?

Captcha: laugh at me. Odds are, I deserve it, so go ahead.