Jimquisition: Go Fish

[JudgeGame]

I really liked this episode. While I can see past the persona in the normal videos in order to "get the message" I find it really engaging when you speak normally without the ranting or script. You should do talks at conventions and stuff.

In regards to the content of the video, I think the problem lies with that when you are typing words at a screen rather than speaking to somebody face to face it is difficult to see them as a person with emotions. While I strive to be fairly polite online, I realise that I can come across as incredibly snarky at times, considerably more so than I ever would in reality, and I occasionally have to remind myself that it really isn't fair to the person on the receiving end.

Some people are simply incapable of the introspection required to notice it, or are surrounded by like minded individuals to the point where that kind of behaviour seems normal. So when they get it pointed out to them they get defensive, because they cannot see what they are doing wrong.

I think a lot of this is down to the internet still being in it's "infancy". People haven't really evolved a proper etiquette for speaking to people online like we do in reality. As such people are much more likely to be a lot ruder than they would be to be people face to face.

Although I have never received the kind of hate people such as yourself and Fish have, to a smaller extent I sometimes get the same kind of feeling when I log onto here and see I have been quoted. Especially if it has been in a heated debate or a controversial topic. I normally ask myself "So who is going to take issue with my opinion now?" and feel reluctant to read what they have said.

So I can only imagine what it must be like for people who get actual harassment.

To be entirely fair, Fish gave no such heed to any form of etiquette in the way he addressed that Japanese freelance game programmer. I'm not sure if you've seen the way he spoke to that guy - and I don't care for or about his opinion itself - but it's not a stretch to believe that he might deserve a little back. Maybe not as much as he got, but he certainly deserved some form of comeuppance.

What I'm saying is, I can see where Jim is coming from and I can see where you're coming from. I don't think Fish needs a "thicker skin" or anything like that. I just think he got what he dished out thrown right back at him tenfold and that maybe he did actually deserve a little of it. He acted like a total douche in front of a global audience, he should have expected that maybe more than just one or two would react to his - to be quite frank - racist and ignorant remarks. And everything I said goes for John Blow as well for that matter. They're both disrespectful jerks.

Edit: In case you haven't seen his behaviour:

Spoiler

He's actually actively been getting these videos taken down, I had to find a reupload.

Holy crap, quit the melodramatic japanophile garbage, nothing he said was racist. Both Blow and Fish have been on record as to there disgust for most of modern gaming, not just japanese games. The question was about modern japanese games, so they answered the question. They never needed to talk about western games, which Blow did include. Sure Fish could have opened up his response better, but his point was valid about Zelda.

I never bothered actually watching this but it's possibly one of the funniest comebacks I've ever seen. I didn't actually care about his opinions at all before this but now I'm sold. Jim is 100% right. We need more people Like Phil Fish in this industry.

 

[Mr_Terrific]

You can hate Fish all you like but the bottom line is this...

Fish makes games.

He has made another game other than Fez?

He was in the process of making Fez 2 so I believe that qualifies as games. Not even sure if you're serious...

Fez took five years to make. Fez 2 was announced last month for the first time. I'd hardly say he makes games. I was asking the question both in jest but also in case there was a game I was unaware of. Since there's not, I'd say he is a person who has made a game and not a person who makes games. Not yet. As is, a one-hit-wonder, taking his money and running.

I'm not saying Fez wasn't a good game. It was/is. I'm not saying he's not capable of producing another. Just correcting a statement for clarification.

So you're saying that he announced a game before any planning or allocation of resources? Before any ideas were put to paper? He just woke up one day and decided to announce a game?

Sure...that's exactly how game development works...

What happened was, you tried to be funny and succeeded in making yourself laugh, and then tried to back up your joke with actual comedy. Well done.

 

[JudgeGame]

Fish doesn't necessarily need thicker skin, or at least wouldn't, if he's stop running his mouth off and actively trying to piss everyone off. If he wasn't notorious for comments like Japanese game devs suck, or my personal favorite "suck my dick, choke on it," this wouldn't have ever been a problem. Fish brought the abuse on himself, he has nobody to blame. And honestly, what Marcus said wasn't even that harsh, especially given some of the shit that comes out of his mouth. All he said was what most of us are thinking: If you didn't have a comment on the situation (Xbox One self publishing change), then just say "No comment right now," and leave it at that. Don't get indignant over it.

Also should point out, nobody forced Fish to respond to the abuse he got, but he did, constantly. I've never liked Fish personally, because he's only ever made Fez, and believes it was a revolution for indie games, when it's anything but.

It's wonderful to see people unironically endorsing Sharia law on an Internet forum in the year 2013.

 

[xPixelatedx]

Fish doesn't necessarily need thicker skin, or at least wouldn't, if he's stop running his mouth off and actively trying to piss everyone off. If he wasn't notorious for comments like Japanese game devs suck, or my personal favorite "suck my dick, choke on it," this wouldn't have ever been a problem. Fish brought the abuse on himself, he has nobody to blame.

You know, someone being a jackass doesn't justify other people being a jackass to them.
Be the better man.

That's one of those things that works better on paper then in practice. If no one ever fought back against his idiocy, it would have likely been much worse then it ever was. What is it you suggest people should have done? Ignoring him was the closest thing to validation Fish got, and he knows that. He's the kind of guy that pat himself on the back after every tweet before he even got responses. It would have just been encouraging for him not to face any contrary thoughts or opinions. While I certainly don't encourage or approve of things like death threats, the man taunted the world on more then one occasion. The world is certainly not a hive mind, but Fish attracted the attention of people just as deranged and sensitive as himself, just with opposing views. What happened to him was the only logical thing that could have happened.

There is a lesson that can be learned in all this: Try to be a better person, because the world is likely going to give you back 3 fold whatever it is you contributed. That isn't indicative of this situation specifically, it's just the state of the world now with the internet and all. Sexist, racist and homophobic people are learning this more and more with each passing day, and now general assholes have to watch their backs to. I would call this a positive, because generally speaking, none of these things were ever really ok.

 

[Lightknight]

So you're saying that he announced a game before any planning or allocation of resources? Before any ideas were put to paper? He just woke up one day and decided to announce a game?

Sure...that's exactly how game development works...

What happened was, you tried to be funny and succeeded in making yourself laugh, and then tried to back up your joke with actual comedy. Well done.

This is Fish we're talking about. You have no idea what his process is like and it's not like a half finish game is a game. It's a half finished game.

But that's the thing, no one knows what his process is. No one knows why the previous game really took five years to make. It's still a mystery and may always be such.

A game maker, makes games. Plural, not one and a half games.

 

[Lightknight]

Woah Jim you have a family?

I always just assumed you spontaneously came into being on the internet, probably from a bored god or something.

Oh, that's just Jim, the man behind trenchcoat glove wearing Jim. Trenchcoat glove wearing Jim whom you see in front of the camera was totally spontanteously created.

 

[Baldr]

Fish couldn't differentiate criticism from insults. I've had to fire artists and creative people for the same problem. Every time I point out something wrong with a piece, they would assume I was insulting their abilities and disrespecting them. Everyone is not perfect, you skills are not perfect. There is always room for improvement. Your wrong about Fish not needing thicker skin, part of that is just common sense. Fish has none.

 

[SinisterGehe]

Also people who say that you need to learn to take criticism need to consider this:

Imagine you are masoning a stone wall and for every stone someone comes to you and states that that is one shit wall and you should stop making it.
Then after you have placed the last of 10.000 stones. Someone comes to you and states "That is one shit wall and you should kill yourself for making it" while having no concept about how much work it took to make the wall. You will get the urge of finding the nearest tool you can kill a man with and just making their skull part of the wall as a decorative piece.

As a person who fingers the muse of creative arts as a day job - I know how horrible it is to someone come to state you something blunt stupid idiotic misinformed and possibly a threat you OR YOUR FAMILY FOR FUCK SAKE!

Hell I have a friend, she is professional art photographer and about once a year after an exhibition or exhibition tour around world she comes back and pour herself to me about the shit comments she received from press, internet and people straight at their face or next to her at the gallery.
She has tried to suicide twice thus far.

When you pour your whole life on something just for someone to call it shit, they do not realize that they have called your life shit. That you and what you are is shit.


PEOPLE WHO DO THIS DISGUST ME AND SHOULD HAVE TO GO TROUGH THIS VERY SAME EXPERIENCE AT LEAST ONCE:

I am glad that Fish didn't totally loose himself and do something even worse than just leave the industry.

 

[Gunner 51]

There's clearly two sides to the coin on this one for me. Firstly, While Mr Fish is quite a disagreeable and conroversial figure - he has every right to his opinion. But while gamers also have the right to an opinion, both parties should be constructive about it, or at the very least polite about it.

People who go around threatening rape, violence and wishing death and misfortune on others need to be named and shamed. It is bullying, in it's rawest form and as such should be stamped out wherever it flourishes. The sad thing is, that they all hide under the dark shroud of anonyminity - if this is what gamers do when they think that no-one knows who they are, then maybe free speech isn't quite the sacred and infallable thing it's cracked up to be and as such, should be regulated.

As Jim has been saying, all this hatred, bile and nastiness - it all adds up. It all takes a toll on someone's mental health and when the camel's back has been broken - they will feel like crap, they might commit suicide or have their confidence destroyed.

I for one will not defend anyone's rights to freedom when they use theirs to intentionally hurt others. Whether they are a mere online bully to a fraudster, a rapist or a common murderer - these people have no right to freedom if they use it to hurt others.

 

[kklawm]

Huh, I knew nothing about this until this video. I checked out the trailer to that indy movie and I can't blame people for thinking he was a ponce, that trailer was shamefully poncy. Cringe worthy. But on the other hand as much as I don't like pretentiousness, I dislike more the general gaming fan base. The ones who are vocal, loud and immature. I find it very hard to find communities in gaming which are respectful and polite.

I'm not surprised he left gaming. I'm not surprised Jim is sympathetic. The vocal minority that represents most of the gaming community should be actively shamed for some of the rudeness and insults spouted from various outlets. I have no idea why gamers let these people run wild on the internet and in real life to the detriment of the whole community. I personally am ashamed to consider myself a gamer because of the sort of people (not on escapist) who set the tone of what being a gamer is like.

It's part of the systemic problem that video games are made for and considered only for teenage boys. Tasteless practices like male playable characters and severed booby torsos come partially from the creators perspective of what the community wants.

 

[Rossmallo]

Phil waives the right to whine about being flamed, when he abuses the hell out of everyone he talks to.

If you can't take a punch, don't throw a punch.

 

[669]

Completely agree on this subject. This definitely shows the problem with the whole elitist "neckbeard" PC Master Race gaming community we have to deal with who act like a bunch of 14-year olds on Call of Duty. People spend more time and effort on hating rather than actually discussing games they like.

Phil Fish might be quite eccentric and annoying at times, he spend a good portion of his life, money and tons of effort to make FEZ just to deal with a bunch of bitchy idiots hating on him left and right.

This is why people don't take the gaming community seriously, if we're ever supposed to evolve from beeing looked on as a bunch of cheetos-eating, Mountain Dew loving troglodytes, people need to start beeing a bit more open-minded and act like adults.

 

[Fiairflair]

I really appreciate that my first contact with this paricular issue was what Jim presented. I only knew Phil Fish by name and I think if I hadn't listened to what was said here I would have gone away with a flawed perspective.

Thank you, Jim.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

And idiot insults a huge part of the gaming community.
The gaming community strikes back.
Fish goes full retard and attacks an ever bigger part of the gaming community.
The gaming community launches a nuclear strike.

Geee... I wonder why he doesn't have a skin thick enough... maybe because he tried to fight against the internet.
An asshole got what he deserved.

 

[Kai Kuhl]

So, Ive read the tweets and I really pity that Fish guy (also Ive never heard of him before). WHAT-THE-FUCK is wrong with that community? I always thought that all that immense verbal abuse in the gaming community was because of the emotional detachment through digital cimmunication and/or 12 year old german kids, but I really doubt that now. I'm afraid that dumbing down of the gaming industry in the last years has attracted all the assholes. That Fish guy seems to be his own character, an oddball, how artists seems to be sometimes. And that dark hole of the internet just hammered him till he broke. What is wrong with you people? Where do you have the moral superiority to judge people like that? Just because it is easy to insult someone over the internet makes it right, just because you are so many it is a good thing to impose your will on a person? Are you people lacking any courtesy? Thanks, you shown me the reality of that whole new digital media crap. I mean, whats the point in using your right for free speech, if everything you said that is out of norm can kick off an avalanche of shitstorms?

 

[Dragonbums]

I was never the person for sending death threats to anyone. Never will.

I agree with you on this video Jim. Not for Phil Fish however. But just for the aspect in general.

If Fish was simply a non inflammatory guy who got a lot of shit for a couple of things here and there that aren't that big of a deal then I could sympathize with him.

However the man looked for trouble just as much as his critics did for him.
When he stated his opinions, it was often times said in the most childish or obscene ways that you knew it was going to bite him in the ass hard.

Honestly, he was just as much as the fuel to his own fire as were the critics setting him off.

I don't think I know that many indie devs that get nearly as much shit as this man, and it surely has nothing to do with Fez itself.

Fish has landed himself in a spot where his personality has a bigger reputation than his game.
The same way you said you won't support the creator of Earthworm Jim because of his views, is the same way people don't support Fez because of the egotistical and abrasive manner he says things.

So no, I don't sympathize all that much with Fish's situation because 80% of it was brought on by himself. His attitude online was basically pouring honey on yourself and wondering why all the bees keep crawling all over your body.

 

[Dragonbums]

So you're saying that he announced a game before any planning or allocation of resources? Before any ideas were put to paper? He just woke up one day and decided to announce a game?

Sure...that's exactly how game development works...

What happened was, you tried to be funny and succeeded in making yourself laugh, and then tried to back up your joke with actual comedy. Well done.

This is Fish we're talking about. You have no idea what his process is like and it's not like a half finish game is a game. It's a half finished game.

But that's the thing, no one knows what his process is. No one knows why the previous game really took five years to make. It's still a mystery and may always be such.

A game maker, makes games. Plural, not one and a half games.

In the indie movie he said it took so long because he wasn't satisfied with his pixel art and redid everything 3 times. Each one getting better as he himself got better at pixel art.

 

[Dragonbums]

Fish doesn't necessarily need thicker skin, or at least wouldn't, if he's stop running his mouth off and actively trying to piss everyone off. If he wasn't notorious for comments like Japanese game devs suck, or my personal favorite "suck my dick, choke on it," this wouldn't have ever been a problem. Fish brought the abuse on himself, he has nobody to blame.

You know, someone being a jackass doesn't justify other people being a jackass to them.
Be the better man.

That's one of those things that works better on paper then in practice. If no one ever fought back against his idiocy, it would have likely been much worse then it ever was. What is it you suggest people should have done? Ignoring him was the closest thing to validation Fish got, and he knows that. He's the kind of guy that pat himself on the back after every tweet before he even got responses. It would have just been encouraging for him not to face any contrary thoughts or opinions. While I certainly don't encourage or approve of things like death threats, the man taunted the world on more then one occasion. The world is certainly not a hive mind, but Fish attracted the attention of people just as deranged and sensitive as himself, just with opposing views. What happened to him was the only logical thing that could have happened.

So when Anita Sarkesian received both rape and death threats is it likewise her fault? Because that's basically the argument you're trying to present. People who attract negative attention, like Fish or Sarkesian, bring it upon themselves with their controversial views.

I'm sorry but that's not logic I subscribe to. The choice to be an asshole on the internet is still a choice.

Phil Fish acted like a complete ass long before his internet harassment came to bite him hard in the ass. Fish has said things that greatly upset certain people in the gaming industry. On top of that he feels that he is the god send of videogames and is just as mature as the supposed "immature" critics.
His hate has NOTHING to do with Fez. His hate has EVERYTHING to do with himself more then anything.
Am I saying he should get death threats?
Hell no. Nobody should.
However those who have followed the man for a while will know he isn't exactly a saint.

Anita on the other hand doesn't deserve half the shit she gets.
All she does is sit in front of a camera with a couple of graphics staff and make 30 minute college 101 level research videos. Due to them being college 101 levels of research it's clear it's either going to be flawed, boring, or sucks.
Most people would ignore that slosh.

Yet the gaming community surprises me once again by actually making the likes of Anita videogame enemy #1. Right up there with with every other female character being tit monsters being #2 and DRM being #3

 

[Dragonbums]

Phil Fish acted like a complete ass long before his internet harassment came to bite him hard in the ass. Fish has said things that greatly upset certain people in the gaming industry. On top of that he feels that he is the god send of videogames and is just as mature as the supposed "immature" critics.
His hate has NOTHING to do with Fez. His hate has EVERYTHING to do with himself more then anything.

Your experience may vary but my exposure to Phil Fish has been via Indie Game the Movie, and in that film he just looked like a tightly-wound guy trying to make games. Not an asshole. Not someone full of himself. Just someone with a huge amount of pressure both from himself and from the world around him. And all that says to me is that he's invested, very invested, in what he's doing.

Again. Phil Fish and Fez have become two different entities in their own right.
When people talk about Fez you will hear almost nothing but praise.

However when you talk about the creator himself often times you will hear those same people talk about how much of a major ass he is.

On that note, my first exposure too was the indie movie.
However it is foolish to base your opinions of someone based on one film. Especially when it was more focused on Fez and his work then his infamous online personality.
Which is why basing his entire persona on the movie leaves for missing pieces to the whole puzzle. It hardly tells the full story about his online behavior.

 

[Dragonbums]

Your experience may vary but my exposure to Phil Fish has been via Indie Game the Movie, and in that film he just looked like a tightly-wound guy trying to make games. Not an asshole. Not someone full of himself. Just someone with a huge amount of pressure both from himself and from the world around him. And all that says to me is that he's invested, very invested, in what he's doing.

Again. Phil Fish and Fez have become two different entities in their own right.
When people talk about Fez you will hear almost nothing but praise.

However when you talk about the creator himself often times you will hear those same people talk about how much of a major ass he is.

On that note, my first exposure too was the indie movie.
However it is foolish to base your opinions of someone based on one film. Especially when it was more focused on Fez and his work then his infamous online personality.
Which is why basing his entire persona on the movie leaves for missing pieces to the whole puzzle. It hardly tells the full story about his online behavior.

So why is "online behaviour" an acceptable source to base your opinion on a guy whereas a documentary is not? If people were criticizing his online behaviour, what your saying would have merit, but they're not, they're criticizing the person.

Given the choice, I would base my opinion of a person on their appearance and presentation in a film than I would on what specific tweets people latch onto. Neither gives a whole representation of the individual, but the film at least can, if presented objectively, give a sense of who he is in the everyday life.

Because the documentary itself did not focus on Phil as a person in any way. They only showed his work and how much he had to get done on Fez. That was the whole point of the documentary. The work that goes into indie games.
In the video where people asked about his online harassment, he took it upon himself to act like a saint that is confused over why he gets hate all the time online when the reality was he is just as much of a twat as the people annoying him.
That is liking saying "I think honey bees are the most dangerous creatures on the planet because the one documentary I saw that really talked about them revolved around people getting swarmed and killed by bees" disregarding the fact that such things rarely happen in real life and they are often beneficial to the environment.