The "problem"? Exactly when did being a gamer turn into something that was so bloody cut throat? Why is everything a war now? How come I can't go out and do simple things without being a "problem?"Zachary Amaranth said:
Jimquisition: Previewed, Preordered, Prescrewed
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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The gaming industry is really built around guilting and duping people in to parting with their money. This is helped by gamers being incredibly complacent and narrow minded. We buy a broken game or feel exploited? No one goes to a consumer advocacy group, we yell on forums and make other pointless gestures that accomplish nothing. Then, on the rare occasions that people do use the appropriate channels like filing legal complaints, those people are branded as entitled whiners whiners and are quickly bashed and flamed.Dastardly said:
You would think that with all the websites we have covering games, there'd be some unity and a desire to protect us from the people trying to screw us, but no. Most game sites are comfortably in the pockets of the publishers. Most of our prominent personalities are schilling and sugar coating reviews because they don't want to lose their free games and swag.
The game industry screws you, the vast majority of the people who cover it help lube you up, and the consumer just bends over and takes it more often not.
Ehh.. I strongly disagree with that sentiment. Reviews are subjective (and often corrupted) things. I've bought many a game that despite having abysmal review scores, I knew a lot about the game and knew it was something I wanted and would enjoy. More often than not, I was right.Zachary Amaranth said:
There is a difference between pre-ordering on blind faith (and lies) and buying something that is generally considered "bad" because it suits your interests.
The "problem" would be people buying a "bad" game but then trying to convince themselves and everyone else that it isn't bad because they had fun playing it. As I've said dozens of times before, bad and fun are not mutually exclusive, but fun does not automatically mean good.
True but so do they and it's become a good natured routine of bug hunting with the players and rollingout the patches and even leaving the more amusing bugs in the game.vxicepickxv said:
Beth have always been open and prompt with communicating with their players.
Gearbox could learn a lot from them, that said I suspect they are too busy preparing fro a spanking from SEGA to worry about paying customers.
captcha: topsy turvy... Like when companies dictate to customers.
I've been taking this exact stance against pre-orders since December, when I decided Halo 4 couldn't be redeemed for 343's failures as the torch barer for the Halo franchise.
Sure, dev's make mistakes with games all the time, but Halo 4 as a whole was a travesty and I've never been burned by poor purchasing decisions so badly in my life. I pre-ordered it off of the fact that I loved each and every Halo game prior, and their amazing marketing and special bonuses enticed me further - though they didn't even apply to the UK anyway (though they didn't make it all that clear until after the game was out). My experience with Halo 4 leave me feeling like it was a fucking disaster of a game, let alone a Halo game.
Good to see this view spreading like wildfire. Lets see how many people actually do reserve themselves from making pre-orders. The only good it does is give you shitty tat, anyway.
Sure, dev's make mistakes with games all the time, but Halo 4 as a whole was a travesty and I've never been burned by poor purchasing decisions so badly in my life. I pre-ordered it off of the fact that I loved each and every Halo game prior, and their amazing marketing and special bonuses enticed me further - though they didn't even apply to the UK anyway (though they didn't make it all that clear until after the game was out). My experience with Halo 4 leave me feeling like it was a fucking disaster of a game, let alone a Halo game.
Good to see this view spreading like wildfire. Lets see how many people actually do reserve themselves from making pre-orders. The only good it does is give you shitty tat, anyway.
Because things in life are rarely simple or involve just you. I'm amazed I have to explain this rather simple concept to people.erttheking said:
A better question is "why can't you do simple things like take responsibility for positivly reinforcing a bad system?"
Hey, if you really "need" that game, that's fine. There's no sense, however, in people getting so upset when the real world applications of a financial system are called for what they are.
You strongly disagree with "that" statement, but it appears "that" statement you disagree with has nothing to do with "that" post you quoted, since "that" is not what I said(going off your response).Sylveria said:
Ye gods! You speak the truth! Now it needs to become a gif even more!Headdrivehardscrew said:I am terribly sorry to burst your bubble,dangoball said:Very good episode, that's why we like you Jim! And also because you are our lord and savior, of course.
Oh and that opening sequence where baseball bat and CM:A met, can someone turn it into a gif? Pretty please?
but there was not baseball bat.
Look again.
Closer. See it jiggle and wiggle with bloodlust and joy.
Pause.
See? That ain't no baseball bat.
I'll be blunt, this attitude is really starting to make me feel very...tired. Everything about being a gamer is so freaking hostile nowadays. You can't even go out and buy a game without people jumping on your back with how you're "destroying the gaming industry". Call me naive, but I remember a happier, more innocent time, where gaming was about having fun, and not waging a damn warZachary Amaranth said:
I pre-ordered five games this year, and out of all of them I only ended up regretting one. I'm not going to apologize for it, because you haven't sold me on it being a "bad system" yet. If I decided that I was going to pre-order a game or buy it on launch day, what would the difference be? Apart from the store possibly running out?
Yeah...I'm sorry but what are the long term ramifications of pre-ordering again? This whole thing feels like making a mountain out of a molehill.
This is pretty much why I've moved almost exclusive to "indie" games to tickle my gamer senses.
The "Triple A" titles usually suck and are full of buggy empty promises.
I did pre-order GTA5, but thats Rockstar, a Dev that has my trust to not make TOTAL shit (sure, GTA4 had some issues, but it wasn't total shit).
The "Triple A" titles usually suck and are full of buggy empty promises.
I did pre-order GTA5, but thats Rockstar, a Dev that has my trust to not make TOTAL shit (sure, GTA4 had some issues, but it wasn't total shit).
I understand Jim's position, and to an extent I agree with it. Publishers/Developers really should be doing more to earn my money instead of demanding it up front, and it's pretty pathetic when they lie, cheat, and literally STEAL from us. With Colonial Marines, Gearbox has literally taken the money and run. A perfectly good studio has forever shamed themselves and lost all of my respect, which caused me to quickly trade in my copy of Borderlands 2 and be quite thankful I never bought an of the DLC.
However, Duke Nukem Forever was a disaster of a game like I'd never seen before, so I had kind of figured most people would hold off on picking up A:CM until some user reviews came in. But... they didn't. They all queued up and bought it. Now I can understand why; Gearbox crafted some perfectly believable lies around the game's release and are, I can imagine, probably pretty proud of themselves for it. I mean, this game was highly anticipated. But at the end of the day, gamers across the world are the one's that put their money into this company's hands. The one's I feel the most sympathy for are PC gamers, who generally have to pay the entire amount of a game in order to pre-order it through digital distribution services, an amount which is typically non-refundable.
I know that most of the cool gamers out there on the interwebs are loathe to walk into a GameStop, but honestly, I like pre-ordering there because I can always cancel the pre-order and get a refund if user reviews don't sync up with what I'm looking for in a game. It's a shame that we should have to wait and not get a game on day one, because many of us want that, but the way publishers are headed, it's probably how I'm going to handle it from now on.
Online passes, shitty demos, seasons passes, DLC... When did it stop being about working for the customer and start being about making the customer work for you?
However, Duke Nukem Forever was a disaster of a game like I'd never seen before, so I had kind of figured most people would hold off on picking up A:CM until some user reviews came in. But... they didn't. They all queued up and bought it. Now I can understand why; Gearbox crafted some perfectly believable lies around the game's release and are, I can imagine, probably pretty proud of themselves for it. I mean, this game was highly anticipated. But at the end of the day, gamers across the world are the one's that put their money into this company's hands. The one's I feel the most sympathy for are PC gamers, who generally have to pay the entire amount of a game in order to pre-order it through digital distribution services, an amount which is typically non-refundable.
I know that most of the cool gamers out there on the interwebs are loathe to walk into a GameStop, but honestly, I like pre-ordering there because I can always cancel the pre-order and get a refund if user reviews don't sync up with what I'm looking for in a game. It's a shame that we should have to wait and not get a game on day one, because many of us want that, but the way publishers are headed, it's probably how I'm going to handle it from now on.
Online passes, shitty demos, seasons passes, DLC... When did it stop being about working for the customer and start being about making the customer work for you?
erttheking said:
No I'm pretty on point.. you think anyone who buys a game regardless of review or whatever because it's something they know they want is "part of the problem." I disagree and I gave several points as to why I disagree with that kind of buying being a "problem" and rather how that kind of buying can result in other, different "problems."Zachary Amaranth said:
Try to keep up and try to be less condescending.
Great post and a good place to platform off of as far as this discussion goes.Headdrivehardscrew said:
Two years back I got off the gaming and went back into complex RC and UAV, I am seeing this as somewhat of a local trend at-least in my area. At one time the local hobby store (paper pencil, card, models, RC, slot) was a ghost town... now it is doing a bustling business. Same with our local Kendo club and for the first time in years the model airstrip is getting a face lift.
As with anything I suppose the idea was that gaming (in general and as an industry) was recession proof, and by degrees if the reasoning held (nature dictates a suitable replacement which didn't really exist), that no matter what was being produced and sold on, it would "sell". Topographically there was such a base and so little content to fill the void, more or less anything "could" be sold. Simple a matter of discovering the price.
As far as the marketing tricks go they are academically taught and are generally considered to be "opportunistic and gorilla". Uses quite a bit of psychology including guilt, responsibility shifting, and co-opting concession with the consumer. Additionally due to the nature of "money talks" it has been debatable as to the quality of the reporting of the major reviewers and outlets of information. Many of the huge media conglomerates own major portions of the publishers as well as have vested interest in the magazines and online e-zines.
Looking at this world as a game, or a system, it is a great way to "stack or rig" the contest; the score kept in money.
The legal nature of software (it simple has to run). As well as some rulings on the nature of the free speech laid the ground work for the adventurous entrepreneur.
This goes with the pre-orders as well. Originally (having real working experience on product side) the idea was to calculate the number of physical copies that a brick and mortar would have on hand for resale. Due to the slippery slope of product cost typically degrading all the time, "holding" too many copies of a title was a financial risk. If your a major distributor, how many copies of Madden NFL do you physically need to order to maximize your 72 hour window? What about the shipping? What about delivery?
That is to say that a Gamestop or BestBuy physically purchases many thousands or hundreds of thousands of these units, by contract. It is not consignment. Steam (to my limited knowledge does both consignment for a transaction fee and is "hooked" into x numbers of product keys at release.)
Used offsets this by calculating the churn rate of the physical product. Allowing for a much smoother transition and "somewhat" artificial scarcity to be introduced. Now of course, piracy and emulators do mess up those calculations considerably.
It's not a charity. It's a business. As systems have moved into a digital distribution age the dynamics of this simple and transparent policy has been abused. Though not without some cause for that abuse.
Considering the number of studios that have folded or changed hands in the past few years, there has been a gulf of artist and creative people at the associates of arts or science level coupled with a rather stark decline in the number of design engineers moving into the field as well as professional designers (level design) BS.MS.Ph.D.. And if it is not a decline of entry of personnel into the field it simply didn't keep pace, stay put, or move into other industries.
Iv'e known of several design artist abandon video games and go into toy design. Many programmers and engineers go into financial institutions or physical good manufacturing. There are tons of reasons for this.
Rising hardware cost and an ever increasing cost to keep up with technology has created a fiscal chasm of very high casino risk.
We are in the age of the last man standing and high volatility with venture capitol drying up everywhere due to rather stagnant and receding economies. So much so in the case of one studio ongoing legal ramifications for failure to deliver. (Kickstarters and crowed funding side-skirting this in very clever ways).
This leaves a couple options are on the table, recycle known brands that have high visibility at the lowest possible cost (reboots and sequels), try to create a new brand, clone an already existing entity; or figure out a way to raise the cost of the unit by crippling it and selling it piece-mill.
Possibly sell out the company or license held I.P. to generate some quick cash. There is the F2P model that is being explored in an attempt to bring in a new base and lower the commitment gate of the consumer, and the social models which have some advantages and disadvantages... Sim City comes to mind with it's always online component which doubles as DRM and conversely the only A.I. (opponent/ally) the game will realistically have. Not sure how that is going to pan out.
As far as the fabled video game crash?
I think we are in it, right now... but it is a huge market and may break up into pockets rather than totally sink. I am of the mind to say it is here to stay by degrees and most likely will "recycle" itself, accepting smaller markets rather than risk the huge amounts of capitol. As I heard once, 5 100 lb gorilla instead of 1 500 lb gorilla. I still think there will be some of the bigger titans that drop tried and true franchise sequels. The key here will be recycling assets (art, music, code base) as much as possible to keep the cost down.
A:CM is interesting in that it was farmed out under the auspices of being developed by a highly talented team. The assets could be wholesale shoplifted from the film, art, concept material, audio effects, alien designs. There are tons of resources that already exist in the form of wire frames and textures. Yet with all that material why is it so terrible?
What you said, about guns, reminds me of an interview with Barrett when he discussed the M98B weapon system built around the .338 LM. He said they took the round and designed a weapon system from the ground up for that round, rather than what the competitors have attempted to do which was modify an already existing system to support the round.
To that end when I look at A:CM I see assets that where in place, and somewhere, as an afterthought, a game shoe-horned into that sea of "assets". There was little to no thought as to how "this" game should be. What strategies and tactics would a player find interesting or create to solve the crisis of the drama presented. Hardly the case.
A game was developed, sure... but a game was not designed around central mechanics. Nothing supports the round chambered into the system. Thing is, did it matter? Did anyone care? Maybe the consumer, but who cares about him or her?
The sad thing is there are moments of brilliance in the work. Take the whole thing apart and rebuild it from the ground up there is probably an excellent game to be had.
It's here where I find my own conundrum. Is it just lazy? Is it a lack of talent from a "game" design standpoint? Is it all art and homage? I see all bait and no hook. I deeply question just how much game is in here.
I suspect over the next couple weeks there will be some damage control, and some shifting of the blame... be it onto reserves or the strength of the I.P. could of never met a "fans" expectations. Ultimately, for me, it is simply a distinct lack of ability, accountability, and perhaps frustratingly no reason what-so-ever for there to have ever been any.
Off the shelf engines, concept work all but handed to teams, no legal ramifications outside of not meeting a delivery date, and a real lack of "artisan-ship or craftsmanship" in the central design.
It is embarrassingly bad.
McDonald's grade software with billions and billions served sold at a very high price point. It worked. Will likely continue to work.
Though with the notion of the "reserve" being at fault, that is simply not true. That money sits in "escrow" by most western countries law. All it does is gain interest, which the holding company keeps; not a farthing goes to a studio or publisher for development.
No transaction has taken place, other than to build interest for the distributor, Steam, BB, Amazon, EA Holdings... what have you. It is factually inaccurate and disingenuous to say otherwise without some evidence or copies of contracts which state that at "x" reserves, the budget is increased to "y". Which would be VERY unorthodox, even for shit-ware like A:CM.
So let's see the list of stuff that has been used in the blame game:
Piracy, Reserves, It's Art, Creative License, "Fans", Entitlements, Used, Digital Distribution (so many more I know I am missing).
I am really "excited" to see what is said next to paper up the cracks! =D
The blame here, lies squarely on the feet of the developer and the serious lack of investment into the work presented. Tantamount to fraud, with no legal ramifications due to the nature of the software industry.
A craftsman or engineer would be severely reprimanded if not dismissed or brought liable for this sort of product...
Being it is a game game, fuck em; thanks for the new Ferrari. Hell even toy manufacturers are held to standards.
Reserves? "Jazz Hands!"
Honestly the only thing I don't like about Bethesda games pre-Skyrim is that they hard crashed.KeyboardSnorlax said:
If they fix that for their future games I'll always pre-order them until they screw me.
The only games I really preorder anymore are the yearly CoDs, and that's because I know exactly what I'm getting (the same thing as last year only with graphical and mechanical tweaks and a whole bunch of new maps). I know I'm going to be buying it anyway, and the pre-order versions generally offer the to-be-release DLC at a steep discount.
Everything else I wait for reviews. Been burned too many times.
Everything else I wait for reviews. Been burned too many times.
The last game I preordered was Guild Wars 2, and it makes me disagree with this to some point, because it's fucking awesome and the new content, which probably would have been DLC I needed to buy from someone else, has been free so far. There's been something new every month, and I've not paid any more since I first bought it.
It's probably very rare for developers to do it like that today though.
It's probably very rare for developers to do it like that today though.
