Jimquisition: Previewed, Preordered, Prescrewed

piinyouri

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I've pre-ordered a few things over the last two years but honestly, the need for pre-ordering died out years and years ago, back when there wasn't a guarantee that the game you wanted would be there.
Now we have a gajillion different online sources to purchase new games that will ALWAYS be there, hence why they sweeten the deal with numerous bonuses that no one but pre-orders will get.

Overall the practice does need to stop, so I agree with Jim here.
 

Aardvaarkman

I am the one who eats ants!
Jul 14, 2011
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Lord_Jaroh said:
What's funny about all of those things is that if you are not happy with the final "product" you can take your product back for a refund...

Kickstarter is less like a pre-order and more of an investment, however.
You can get a refund on games you are not happy with... since when wasn't this the case? How is this different from the food situation?

Kickstarter is not an investment. You aren't buying shares in the company. You don't get any royalties or dividends if the project succeeds. I really don't understand what you're trying to say here, because it is doesn't match reality.
 

jmarquiso

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You know what, Jim?
You are a journalist (or jarnelist, whatever). You feel lied to, and you were. You know what would be productive? Actually digging and finding out about the breakdown between all the studios involved, informing the audience as to what a "verticle slice" is, and - when pre-orders are involved in any game - instead of complaining that the audience shouldn't be pre-ordering, how about finding out if the game merits it?
Yes, that means asking tough questions and having a legal staff.
You know what though? You have the personality to do it. I believe that you can. You're the guy who managed to piss off MS by saying "Herp Derp" to summarize an MS event.
At the very least, a follow up magazine style piece on the practices of PR and marketing vs. finished and unfinished products. ACM is alreadyout. It's already been panned by critics. You can - and should - find out more. You or Destructoid (I know you're reviews editor, not news editor, so that's out). Because you've made this voice for yourself, you're somewhat immune from PR blacklists, because you're the kind of guy who'd point it out and gamers will rally around you.
 

irishda

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Unfortunately, what Jim suggests presents a bit of a conundrum that's bound to trap people forever in infinite cycles of hatred, weariness, joy, then love. Frankly I'm quite amazed this is the same Jim as the one who wrote an article several years ago claiming that customers outside the gaming media cycle were smarter than the ones in it, because they chose games based on what looked fun to them, not because of the developer/publisher's name on the box and not because of any sort of hype surrounding them. Jim's suggestion is for us to trust developer's with proven track records of products. Except that's exactly what happened with A:CM. Jim even says it himself. "You can't trust the people that made Borderlands 2, so who can you trust?" So how are exactly are they supposed to earn your money again?

I'm also not sure what he's bitching about with advertisement. They lied to you Jim? Really? A marketing team over-hyped something, or flat out promised something that wasn't in there? Say it ain't so, Auntie Em. Welcome to every other industry ever. The newest Die Hard trailers also promised me it was gonna be the best valentine's day movie ever; how much you wanna bet on the veracity of that statement. I'm quite worried that gamers just don't seem to understand the relationship of the customer in the subjective world of entertainment, and that they're just now realizing "Gee, maybe we shouldn't just throw money at developers or series we like whenever a new one comes out." YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE THE ONE WHO MAKES THE JUDGMENT CALL ON WHETHER OR NOT TO BUY SOMETHING BECAUSE THE COMPANY HAS NO WAY OF KNOWING IF YOU WILL LIKE IT BEFOREHAND. Companies can't decide for you what you should or shouldn't be buying, and their survival depends on convincing you why you should buy their product over others. Now, in a perfect world, they'd accomplish this by putting out the best product. But, since things like Twilight and Transformers can make all the money ever, we know that that doesn't always work. So they have to promote. They have to hype. Especially these days, since games are more expensive than ever to make. And yes, sometimes gamers fall for the advertisements, sometimes they look at the box and just plain make the wrong choice. Does that mean the company is this evil behemoth that's sucked another victim dry? Of course not, someone looked at the information available to them and made the wrong choice (for themselves).

If everyone picked the right game for themselves all the time (hell if they bought the right anything all the time), than we would be the wisest civilization ever. I watched Mama when it was released. I saw the trailers, and the short film it was based off of. It looked good to me. The trailers promised it would be scary, and it was, right up until the last fifteen minutes or so. That ending sucked. But I didn't write to the directors or the producers calling them distrustful assholes who made me pay for something when I had no idea what the final product was. Why? Because it's impossible for anyone to make a game, movie, story, book, food, furniture, TV, computer, car, toy, song, etc. that everyone will like. And to demand that of them? To demand that they put out something no one will have any complaints over is beyond ridiculous. It would certainly be nice if they did, hell even they want to put out something everyone will like. That's the ultimate goal. But it's a nirvana no one can ever reach.

TL;DR: There are lots of products of which require you to pay first before you can experience them. Food? Can't just start sampling that new cereal in the store. And good luck trying to return two-thirds of a six pack you didn't like. Movies? God, A History of Violence was terrible. Games ain't the first one. So suck it up. If you ever bought a game you didn't like, then you made a mistake. Salvage what you can and move on. You'll be a lot happier for it.

(Also I noticed Jim hid his Assassin's Creed 2 statue, and the Skyrim dragon statue; things which either came with pre-orders, or collector's editions which are even worse)
 

GLo Jones

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Feb 13, 2010
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The next video game crash can't come soon enough. Hopefully it won't be the death of the Escapist.
 

RedDeadFred

Illusions, Michael!
May 13, 2009
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Not exactly news to me. I've never preordered a game in my life. Even if I'm 99% sure that I'll enjoy the game (Skyrim and Borderlands 2 for example).
 

maninahat

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The thing is, this isn't so much on the developers as it is on the consumers as well. The consumer must surely know the risk they are taking with a pre-order? Aliens is just one of the cases in which the gamble failed to pay off.

Frankly, it pangs of naivety that so many people where surprised when Aliens turned out to be shit; a game in development hell with no previous titles or established series to assure a standard of quality. Sure, the demo might have looked excellent (the demo you weren't permitted to play, that is), but then again so did Duke Nukem - "shit throwing? Ego? It looks like a riot!"

By all means, be impetuous, continue to pre-order and take risks on the titles you want, but recognise that you are the one choosing to take a fucking gamble, so don't complain when you get a bad hand.
 

Vhite

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Yay! I never pre-ordered anything! You may preform oral sex on me Jim whenever you feel like it.

Also I intend to use your "Shut up and earn my money." phrase more than it's healthy.
 

maninahat

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Draconalis said:
My first ever meme, created in honor of this momentous occasion.



This one's for you Jim.
I quite liked that. Thanks.

I still can't get into the pre-order mindset. Are people really that impatient that they have to get a game they could get a month or a year later? I took a look at my Steam library statistics, and it says I have over $1000 worth of games, but the reality is, to acquire all those games I only paid a tenth of that at the most. Just through being a little patient, I can still get the exact game as the people who pre-ordered, but with the assurance of a good critical reception, the bugs patched out, the pre-order bonuses and DLC included in a game of the year edition, and at a fraction of the price.
 

barbzilla

He who speaks words from mouth!
Dec 6, 2010
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RaikuFA said:
barbzilla said:
TorchofThanatos said:
I have only pre-ordered 6 games over all my years in gaming and I haven't been screwed once.
Mass Effect 2, Mass Effect 3, Halo 3, Halo ODST, Halo Reach and Halo 4 are all games that I have enjoyed and I don't regret a thing.

The problem with TB is his paranoia of the "Fans." A "fan" to him is a scary being who drags the video game industry back. An evil creature who can't be trusted and is the reason that, he feels, the industry is crap. I mean I also don't like his hatred to consoles but that is another argument.

Pre-ordering is not bad, If you like the free shit you get, do it. I don't get how being screwed on pre-ordering one game makes all of pre-ordering wrong. I get that you are angry because your game sucked but it is one game.
To answer your question at the end:
Pre-Ordering is a bad practice because it encourages sales before there is a product to sell. That in and of itself doesn't seem as terrible as all that, but it is. What we encourage by giving our money away before the game is made is allowing the publisher/developer leeway to commit acts that can skew the final product. They know the game will be successful no matter what they do at that point, so they can (if they choose to) stop production on the game you have pre-ordered and still make a profit. While it doesn't mean that is what they will do, it is something that can and has happened.
But what about localized games? The products finished all that needs to be done is translating the game. I can find the finished product on youtube to make sure I'm not lied to. Plus a lot of games I preorder are games that are on a first come first serve basis meaning if I don't pre order it, I can't be garunteed a copy down the road without paying double for just the disc/cartridge. Is preordering harder to find games bad for the industry as well?
If you are pre-ordering for pragmatic reasons I don't have an issue with it. I understand that there can be value in pre-ordering as well. I think if a company wants to sell pre-orders they should come with another game or a discount as most steam pre-orders do. This gives you some form of compensation for the product. There also needs to be a lemon law to protect the customers though. Most retailers won't let you return software if a game isn't as advertised.
 

barbzilla

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Dec 6, 2010
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TorchofThanatos said:
barbzilla said:
TorchofThanatos said:
I have only pre-ordered 6 games over all my years in gaming and I haven't been screwed once.
Mass Effect 2, Mass Effect 3, Halo 3, Halo ODST, Halo Reach and Halo 4 are all games that I have enjoyed and I don't regret a thing.

The problem with TB is his paranoia of the "Fans." A "fan" to him is a scary being who drags the video game industry back. An evil creature who can't be trusted and is the reason that, he feels, the industry is crap. I mean I also don't like his hatred to consoles but that is another argument.

Pre-ordering is not bad, If you like the free shit you get, do it. I don't get how being screwed on pre-ordering one game makes all of pre-ordering wrong. I get that you are angry because your game sucked but it is one game.
To answer your question at the end:
Pre-Ordering is a bad practice because it encourages sales before there is a product to sell. That in and of itself doesn't seem as terrible as all that, but it is. What we encourage by giving our money away before the game is made is allowing the publisher/developer leeway to commit acts that can skew the final product. They know the game will be successful no matter what they do at that point, so they can (if they choose to) stop production on the game you have pre-ordered and still make a profit. While it doesn't mean that is what they will do, it is something that can and has happened.

Imagine you have a child. You give the child a project (lets say: pulling the weeds in the garden) and tell him that when he finishes his project you will give him a new video game. The child will get out there and start working hard and fast to get the project done. He knows that you will come check his work before you give him the game, so he does a thorough job. After he is done and you check the garden, you give him his game. That is how normal business practices work. Now lets see how the pre-order theory works in the same scenario. You tell the child that if he pulls all the weeds in the garden you will give him a new video game. The child goes out and starts working hard and fast, but half way through it he calls you outside to check the garden, you see his work and think he is doing a great job. Seeing as how he is doing so well, you say "wow, wonderful job. Here is your video game kid" and you go back inside. At this point the kid has the video game in his hands, how good of a job do you think he will do on the rest of the garden...

True if the kid is good he will finish the job at the same level he started it, but we are talking about developers who have a habit of screwing their customers over. These people will not continue at the same level they started at. They will rush the rest and go play with their new toy (or your money as it were).

This is why the practice is bad.
I understand the your reason but I don't believe that would ever happen, The game can and will be shipped out early but not because of your reason. The people who make the game do not get paid depending on how well the game sells. The producers or company make more money depending on how well the game sells. So yes, the producers could push out the game early if they wanted just the pre-order sales.

That being said I don't believe that a game will suck because they got lazy because of pre-orders. They game would have sucked weather they got pre-orders or not.
I do realize that games having the option to pre-order like a year in advance could possible lead to what you were talking about but I don't believe that it would ever happen. The game would suck not matter if it was pre-ordered or not. Don't count your chickens before they hatch, is a saying that works here. No company is going to say that they are just happy with the pre-order sales and they don't want to make more money.

I get what you are saying but i don't believe that would ever happen and really Gearbox only has one good game series (Borderlands). Jim said that the company had good will. Really? All I see is a group of people doing knee jerk reaction to one game that sucked. It is like my friends pre-ordering ff13-2 and getting mad at pre-ordering because his game sucked. FF-13 sucked.

I guess I am just really careful with with my pre-orders. The only risk I took was with Halo 4 and I am having lots of fun with it. I guess the lessen is be carful pre-ordering and know it is a risk but the bane of gaming? I didn't think so
I don't think you have to stop pre-ordering period. I just think that as pre-orders become more popular and we are pre-ordering much further in advance we will run into this issue. I didn't mean to make it sound that like that is the issue currently (my apologies if it did). I honestly didn't care so much about the A:CM, my only real gripe with it is the AI. I have horrible eye sight and never really notice graphical differences (unless they are extreme). I have always been on the pre-orders can turn bad bandwagon though. We have already seen a few cases of it going bad though. The most notorious being Diablo 3 and Mass Effect 3 (3s in general seem to be cursed). And Diablo 3 wasn't even that bad of a game, it just wasn't Diablo 2 LoD.

If the publisher wants to sell pre-orders they need to offer something substantial, and not just something ripped off from the game. I like the pre-orders that include a copy of the previous game and/or have a discount associated with it.
 

CrazyCapnMorgan

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Jan 5, 2011
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MrMixelPixel said:
I feel pretty safe in preordering Pokemon X and Y. I just... have this feeling in my gut after playing every other Pokemon game, I'm gonna like it. I rarely preorder, but when I do... I'm usually right.

Although, with that said, I'm cautious for the various reasons Jim presented.
That would be because Game Freak has really improved upon the Pokemon franchise with each generation. I've played almost every generation (the third being the exception) and they've improved on almost every aspect, from story to gameplay.

Consider Black 2 and White 2 - your rival, Hugh, goes through his own character development as the story progresses. Likewise, he goes through a range of emotions as the circumstances are presented to him. Then, you have the Team Boss, Colress, whose only obsession is the strength of Pokemon through his research and nothing else. When you take a closer look at their names and personalities, especially when in their Japanese context, you can tell Game Freak put a good deal of thought into their supporting characters.

Hugh, "Hue" - range of colors. In this case, range of emotions, which can be derived from colors. For those who are confused on this topic, look up "mood ring".

Colress, "Achroma" - Achroma, meaning lack of color or "colorless". In this case, his sole desire, his research, is the only thing that he outwardly expresses.

The character "N", whom was a major presence in the previous installment, is now breifly encountered in Black and White 2. Yet, those who've played the first Gen 5 games will notice a distinct change in N's behavior; especially when you go to challenge him after beating the Elite Four and Champion for the first time. Where N was completely closed off to human interaction before, he now understands people better thanks to the protagonist of Black/White. Also consider his battle animation differences: in Black/White, he unfolds his arms and has the look of a more-than-serious trainer; in Black 2/White 2, he unfolds his arms and smiles - something that he never showed in Black/White.

As for the pre-order aspects of what Jim brought up - he's ultimately correct. However, I, too, pre-ordered both X and Y solely for the fact that Game Freak has improved on their product from installment to installment. And what they mess up on, they take note of and correct it for future installments. This shows devotion not only to their consumer base but to their franchise, as well.

That said, I did also pre-order Starcraft 2: Heart of the Swarm...and I'm seriously reconsidering that decision based on their recent and not-so-recent actions.
 

DRTJR

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Aug 7, 2009
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As a die hard Nintendo Fanatic, I have pre-ordered every game but one in the past year(which was the adventure time game) and I have yet to leave disappointed.
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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I try to match my purchasing patterns with the amount of appreciation I want to show to the developer and/or publisher. The only game I've ever preordered was Portal 2. I knew the kind of quality to expect from Valve, and as expected they delivered on that expectation and then some.

On the other hand, I waited a good six months before purchasing Mass Effect 3, because I didn't want to give $60 or another launch-day purchase to EA and their terribly exploitative business practices. So by the time I bought it, it was down to a more palatable $40, and Bioware had released the DLC that "fixed" the ending.
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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GLo Jones said:
The next video game crash can't come soon enough. Hopefully it won't be the death of the Escapist.
I feel like a video game "crash" is a bit too dramatic, because the only time something "crashes" with disastrous results like the Atari crash is when all of an industry's eggs are in one basket and then that basket explodes. The games industry is very diverse now, no longer in the hands of just a couple of companies. You've got EA, Valve, Square Enix, Capcom, Bethesda, CD Projeckt, Ubisoft, Team Ninja, Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, Apple, Android, Sega...and so many more I just can't think of at the moment. The games industry is more diverse than it has ever been. It would take multiple companies failing at once for it to be called a "crash" at this point, which only becomes less likely as more companies take the stage and more consoles and outlets for games emerge. Even if a big player like EA fails, it'll be split up into parts like THQ was and other companies will rise to fill the gap.

Even if the biggest tree in a forest falls, that doesn't mean the entire forest is destroyed. That tree gets reabsorbed by the smaller trees around it, and those other small trees grow since they're no longer in the shade of the big one. The only way the forest can be destroyed is if all of the trees are gone. The games industry isn't a single tree now, it's a forest.

God that was more existential than I intended it to be.