Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

wizzy555

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Stripes said:
I understand rape is bad, and that its not always obvious, however I disagree that men need to be reminded that fact. Do you need to be reminded not to murder or steal? No you and everyone else old enough to be responsible for their actions knows bad and good and does not need to be reminded what is what, you dont refer to people as potential rapists or murderers so dont treat them like they are.
Actually ... we ARE reminded not to steal and kill. From birth, we're raised to be told not to kill people, not to steal, to be honest and tell the truth. Nowhere are the boys set aside and told, "Now, you're going to have to not rape people." I understand that bringing up sexual issues -- especially concepts such as rape -- to young children is not going to whet the appetite of many parents, but the point remains that men really AREN'T told not to do it in any way. Parents don't tell their kids at any point, concerned more as they are with ensuring they don't smoke or do drugs.

In fact, there are PLENTY of organizations, poster campaigns, and commercials warning us not to smoke and do drugs. I'd say that's a great instance of society being told things it "doesn't need to learn" but having the lesson reinforced anyway. And I'd say that, "don't put the weird pill in your mouth that you know nothing about" is a FAR more obvious lesson than, "Here are the signs that maybe a woman doesn't want to sleep with you."
I'm not sure I really agree there. I don't really recall being told not to kill people, "don't hit people" sure. Movies, TV and such usually portray guys who are forceful with girls as jerks, this can be taken as a moral reminder. Date rape and violent assault are usually too edgy to include in a family show however.

That said a few posters (like the ones mentioned before) wouldn't hurt.
 

KaosuHamoni

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Jim, I'm genuinely beginning to respect you more and more. Not gonna lie, when your series first came to the Escapist, I did not like it. At all. But with the last season you've really won me round, especially with the way that you're 'maturely' approaching topics which most really don't like touching.

Good job dude.
 

wizzy555

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jmarquiso said:
Aureliano said:
Slippery slopes and censorship. If there's a topic that cannot be written about for fear of the very real possibility of an author being accused of committing or desiring to commit the action under discussion, does that set a dangerous precedent for free speech?

The common sense argument says no, but since when have you seen common people act sensibly when it comes to censorship?
To be fair, he never advocates censorship. He even says quite explicitly he is not saying they shouldn't be made. What he's saying is it's inappropriate, in bad taste, etc. Basically he'd defend the right for someone to make a game about rape, but he wouldn't invite them home.

Think about this - the ACLU threw its weight behind the KKK and NAMBLA, not because they believe in their causes, but they believe in the right for them to speak.
I wish we had an ACLU in England.
 

Riobux

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Aw, not one little rape Jim? Just a quick one?

On a more serious note: I think another important point about the "rape vs murder" debate is the methods used as well. There's many ways to murder someone with the most common being in a quick manner such as a gunshot to the head, a sword through the chest, and so on. Hell, developers tend to draw the line at drawn-out murder sequences; with torture incredibly rarely, if ever, shown in full depiction (although if it's because it's boring to drag it out or if it's full out disturbing for the view is a different matter). Rape however, isn't a quick method. It's never quick (cue "can only sexually last for a few seconds" jokes). It's something drawn out for at least ten minutes, if not for hours and hours. It's more akin to a form of torture (and was sometimes used as a form of torture way back), something developers rarely touch.

Even then, after the murder is done the pain is done and the person feels nothing (unless you're spiritual and believe in the person going to hell, but that may be going far in your imagination). Rape, the pain is drawn out beyond the event (which lasted for at least ten minutes) with a culture of shame upon the person who got raped. For death, we put up a tombstone, maybe sob for a bit for the person's sake and move on. For rape, the victim feels a strong psychological disturbance constantly due to our social norms of sexuality behaviours being not just breeched but violated in such a strong way to shatter the human mind. They're not just abnormal to themselves, they're forever outcasts who have broken one of the central code of human laws. The shame a rape victim feels, almost encouraged by the media ans social norms, is border-lining the shame a person who's committed manslaughter feels (assuming they're the typical 9-5 office worker from a middle class background and so on). It's mental torture to an extreme level, and considering video games rarely if ever show physical torture, it'd be strange for a non-villain character to take part in mental and physical torture (which for something to be as drawn out as it is, you don't feel a sense of doing it out of necessity like you do with murder, but you must get a sense of enjoyment out of it to do it that long).

If it's done in the right context and used sparingly rape can be a powerful scene in a game and it'd be an amazing scene I'd love to watch (not for the actual rape, but for the narrative elements of it), but once the "rape door" is open I can only imagine an absolute onslaught of crass and unintelligent filth flowing through the market.
 

MB202

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I find it interesting how casual people are about rape then murder At least from my perspective. Rape is a lot more traumatizing and leaves scars that don't heal, while murder is just one guy/gal dying and everyone else reacts. I guess it's all about "taking a life" vs. "ruining it for the rest of theirs".
 

GeorgW

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Given the little text description below the video and the beginning of the video, I was expecting you to take the complete opposite stance on the issue than you did and was preparing to write a ranting comment on how wrong you would have been. Instead you make that rant yourself, and probably makes it better than I would have. Thank you for that, and I will use this video in the future if the topic come up, though I hope it doesn't.
 

Slayer_2

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Love the "you don't rape in self defense" line. Because that pedestrian's legs that you're running over certainly deserved it, that dumb bastard getting in your way, on the sidewalk of all places! Those civilians in MW2? Deserved it, they were Russian, and therefore all terrorists.

The reality is that games are maturing, and with that, they handle more... controversial subject matter, such as innocents getting injured/killed(or raped). However, American society has not matured very much in relation to anything sex-related. If a penis or vagina is involved, and it's a game, some group of assholes is gonna start bitching. We as humans also still have a notion that women are weak and vulnerable, and must be protected, so a game with such horrible treatment of a woman would cause outrage galore.

To be honest, most game devs probably couldn't handle rape very well, and there'd be a huge media shit-storm. I mean, the sex in ME was consensual, and that riled a lot of feathers, imagine "rape simulator" accusations. Then again, how well is murder and war handled? Not very. It's glorified and human life trivialized, yet the outrage is nothing compared to a virtual rape.
 

FedericoV

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I mostly agree with Jim's position. The video is done very well considering the lenght of it and the sensible nature of the argument. You raise a lot of interesting points.

But I would like to add some random points:

- A lot of games glorify murder. That's the hypocrisy. You can use murder as a storytelling tool but you should at least try to contextualize it. Unfortunately, most game developers are not as smart as Tarantino.

- The myth of the "soldier" is idelogically wrong. For many different reasons but mostly for all the poor guys that continue to die every day in every corner of earth. If you stop to think at it a lot of games appear to be an ethical abomination. Maybe because in the west we like to play war from time to time?

- Rape happens during war. A lot. Maybe because it is part of the same mindset created by war?

- I've read a lot of posts about rape in videogames. But at the end it's mostly a japanese thing, isn't it? I would like to understand why for the japanese rape is not an absolute tabu on a cultural level.
 

ad5x5

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yunabomb said:
The problem is that there are way too many people who think that what the victim wore or did in a period before the rape is relevant to the rape, and it's not. Anyone who's first reaction to rape is to question all the victims actions needs to be told why this is wrong. This is why this phrase is said, even if it sounds reductionist at first.
I disagree.
What the victim did in the period leading up to the rape is entirely relevant as it needs to be ascertained if a crime actually took place. Not saying someone walking down an alley in a miniskirt deserves it or we should be blaming someone who is violently attacked.

More talking about the women who go out drinking meet a guy and wake up the next day next to them and can't remember giving consent as they were both a bit too tipsy. Next thing she's crying rape because she can't remember and "he's not the kind of guy I'd sleep with normally."
The worst are the ones that do this because they're EMBARRASSED they slept with the person.
They are evil and it destroys lives.

The circumstances of any rape claim should be examined (as with any other crime) to see what happened. Just taking the woman's word for it is very dangerous.
 

Alterego-X

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cursedseishi said:
Rape, as an act between two humans is quite obviously a horrible thing, and is why something like "Rapelay" was quickly shelved and forgotten.
Yet rape, as a tentacle and human, is probably one of the things Japan is most known for.
Actually, that's mostly a stereotype based on a 80's hentai fad, where creators tried to go around a ban on on showing animated penises that way, and on later ecchi comedies that ironically referenced it.

The overwhelming majorit of hentai is old-fashined rape, and even the consensual ones have lots of rapey undertones, with the female characters always being relucant, and saying "no" while meaning "yes" during sex, to show how virtous they are.
 

daltonlaffs

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I'm going to have to take a very controversial stance here.

Jim, you make good points, but you missed the cardinal issue. The question isn't "is rape worse than murder", it's whether or not there's any valid, morally-defensible reason to make games about rape. And no, those two questions aren't intrinsically connected.

You know that whole "violent games make you violent" thing that we all deny because it's demonstrably bullshit? Why do we deny that, again? "Because it's escapism." "Because it lets us put off steam and actually makes us less violent."

I know none of you want to hear this, but there's absolutely no difference between that justification and the idea that playing (or making) a rape fantasy game is wrong. Look at Japan over the last few years, let's see what effect these kinds of things actually have. You see, Japan has a genre of entertainment called "lolita", and I wouldn't recommend Googling that if you aren't familiar with it. It branches off into (drawn) child pornography very quickly. However, Japan actually has an extremely low rate of sexual child abuse compared to most first-world countries. How does that work? They're getting their fix from a victimless source. Ever since that one controversial rape game got banned in Japan and threatened to criminalize that entire subgenre, rates of real sexual abuse (in general) have been on the rise in Japan. Gee, I wonder what the correlation is?

Whether or not you or I like the idea of rape is irrelevant, as irrelevant as the fact that some religious extremists think all forms of violent media should be banned. It's victimless, and if anything, it's preventing the horrible acts it depicts by giving people that are considering them a harmless alternative to the real thing.

And yes, I do think drawn child pornography should be legal everywhere by extension. The witch hunt we have going against pedophiles is just making them more dangerous -- give them something to satisfy their strange desires that DOESN'T involve kidnapping and child rape in real life.
 

Stripes

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Stripes said:
I understand rape is bad, and that its not always obvious, however I disagree that men need to be reminded that fact. Do you need to be reminded not to murder or steal? No you and everyone else old enough to be responsible for their actions knows bad and good and does not need to be reminded what is what, you dont refer to people as potential rapists or murderers so dont treat them like they are.
Actually ... we ARE reminded not to steal and kill. From birth, we're raised to be told not to kill people, not to steal, to be honest and tell the truth. Nowhere are the boys set aside and told, "Now, you're going to have to not rape people." I understand that bringing up sexual issues -- especially concepts such as rape -- to young children is not going to whet the appetite of many parents, but the point remains that men really AREN'T told not to do it in any way. Parents don't tell their kids at any point, concerned more as they are with ensuring they don't smoke or do drugs.

In fact, there are PLENTY of organizations, poster campaigns, and commercials warning us not to smoke and do drugs. I'd say that's a great instance of society being told things it "doesn't need to learn" but having the lesson reinforced anyway. And I'd say that, "don't put the weird pill in your mouth that you know nothing about" is a FAR more obvious lesson than, "Here are the signs that maybe a woman doesn't want to sleep with you."
No need for the caps, lets not get hostile. How many of those adverts are directed at you? For that matter, how many are directed at people who know better? People beyond 25? very few, if any. You teach a child not to do wrong when it doesn't know right from wrong, does anyone still need to remind you, are you capable of working out right from wrong even beyond what you were taught? Are there any poster campaigns telling us not to murder? Its basic stuff, dont rape, dont steal, dont kill. We do not need to be taught. If you go out of your way to tell guys dont rape anyone you are just saying they might, its insulting. Your clearly passionate about this, I respect that, but there's no need to get aggressive.
 

Mr.Lucifer

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I applaud Jim for taking the issue seriously. In gaming, 90% of killing is in self defense. When you can murder in video games, its usually in over-the-top ways, no is taking it seriously. But you can't rape in over-the-top ways even in fiction. If one could rape in a videogame, it would the same way in real life. It would be horrifying, no one would have fun with it.
 

esperandote

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WouldYouKindly said:
It's quite simple to me. We've all had a desire to hurt someone at some point, maybe not kill, but hurt is immensely common. Now, very few people have a desire to rape people, fortunately.
But most people have the desire to have sex, while the person object of the desire migh not want to have sex with said person.

There are hundreds of girls that post dozens of seminaked and/or sexy pictures of them on facebook, and they have public accounts or private but accept all requests, in that case, I'm not saying is right if someone rape them but if someone does i wouldn't say it wasn't 100% inevitable. I know i wish i had sex with them when i see them.
 

Daveman

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Jan 8, 2009
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There can be a higher benefit to killing I suppose, whereas rape is just a bad thing. You're not gonna rape your way out of a bad situation. Well... not most situations at least. If that were the case then I think as long as we saw there was a clear higher purpose for the rape (no idea how that would happen besides "there's a nuke up her muff and you can only deactivate it with the imprint of your penis", but that's plain retarded) then we wouldn't feel bad about it.

P.S. Can I come over for white wine spritzers, Jim?
 

Rockhound

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Both rape and murder are horrible crimes that deserve to be punished. I agree that people, including myself, naturally and instinctively regard rape as a more loathsome crime. I think people tend to regard murder as quick and impersonal and rape as an intense emotional and physical violation. Rape turns something otherwise beautiful and enjoyable into something ugly and painful from which the victims may never recover.

I think we have to be careful to not only consider the act of the crime but also the consequences; rape is terrible and ugly but the victims have the opportunity, however difficult, to recover while the condition of murder victims is decidedly permanent. I do believe there are fates worse than death and I imagine some rapes are so traumatizing as to be such a case but I would like to believe they are the minority.

In response to those who propose rape to be worse than murder; What if the potential victim was yourself, your spouse, your mother or your sister? Do you think you/they would prefer death? Of course there is no right answer but I know what my preference would be.

As far digital murder we, as the player, usually only have to see the ?quick and impersonal side? ? not the consequences. In a video game murder is at worst malicious and at best justified. There is no real consequence to death in a video game.

Rape is by its nature drawn out, highly personal and can never be justified. A digital simulation of a rape would be at best torture porn.