Jimquisition: Sexual Failing

Recommended Videos

Falseprophet

New member
Jan 13, 2009
1,381
0
0
Garfy said:
My relationship with Anders in Dragon Age 2 certainly had an impact on the plot, made me hesitate before punishing him for his actions at the end of the game.

Still did it tho, just made me think twice for a bit.
Same thing with me. I as a player saw it coming miles away, but my Hawke was blinded by love and trust, and in the end was so hurt by the betrayal, she reacted harshly.

See, DA2 tried to actually incorporate long-term relationships into its story. And like most things in DA2, it was a really good idea marred by poor execution and a rushed product. But it allowed you to enter into a long-term relationship with one of your companions, and that relationship could be based on Friendship or Rivalry. Hey, just like real life, it's possible to be in a relationship with a person who's bad for you! Or with someone whose views on the world don't alter to suit yours just because you're sharing a bed! And then it allowed someone who loved you to still betray you because they were their own person with their own feelings and agendas.

That was pretty mature writing to me. Sometimes people are going to do what they're going to do despite their feelings for you, or how many pretty words you've spoken, or nice presents you've given them, or struggles you've shared. They're still their own person in the end. Definitely several levels above the romance-writing in DA:O. (Except maybe Zevran's. Romancing him is actually pretty interesting if you really think about his background.) A shame the rest of DA2 couldn't stand next to the character work.
 

LiquidGrape

New member
Sep 10, 2008
1,336
0
0
Dragon Age 2 is a great argument to the contrary, actually. Isabela, for example, whose sex scene occurs in the first act and is nowhere near the romantic climax of that relationship.

Did you ever play the game? Just curious since it would've deflated pretty much this entire issue.
 
May 29, 2011
1,179
0
0
I think what bioware is getting at is that the sex scenes will be less revealing, which is pretty much exactly what I want.

I enjoyed a lot of the romances in bioware games (best example would be Jack in ME 2) but the sex scenes always seemed awkward and pointless. "Fade to black" always seemed like a better conclusion.

I think Jim is being overly harsh here, it's one of the first times I've felt like he's pointlessly exaggerating. I agree with his point, just not nearly to the same degree he does. Sex scenes are not universally awful, and at worst they're mildly annoying.
 

AntiChrist

New member
Jul 17, 2009
238
0
0
Sushewakka said:
Hawkeye21 said:
quantumsoul said:
In Dragon Age: Origins sex wasn't the always the endgame. If you pursue Morrigan you can have sex from the start but later on in the romance she even refuses sex if she is in love. I wont spoil anything but her romance becomes about something far greater than just sex. There is even DLC to continue the romance past the main game and there isn't even sex at the end of it.
But then developers chickened out and refused to continue that storyline any further. Yah, sure, we know that Morrigan is going to be in Inquisition, but protagonist is not Gray Warden from the first game, so whats the point. It really buggers me when devs start a great story line and then refuse to give it an appropriate ending, thus completely making the whole thing meaningless.
(SPOILERS FOR DRAGON AGE: ORIGINS)

After using the Warden to complete her Old God Baby plot, or after the Warden refuses to play his role in that plot, she leaves. Surprise, she has her own agenda and motivations, and will see them finished, the Warden becoming little more than an obstacle at this point. She might feel a tinge of regret and be conflicted about her newfound ability to feel emotions, but she's her own person with her own plans.

There, that's your conclusion. She leaves you.
That's true. In a way, I feel that the Witch Hunt DLC, where you get to join Morrigan and "live happily ever after" is sort of a cop out - the story between the Warden and Morrigan had already been concluded. Not every love story needs to have a happy ending.
 

Lieju

New member
Jan 4, 2009
3,042
0
0
I'm not about to believe Jim has ever had sex with anyone. There is no man or woman alive who could handle that level of raw sexiness. (Unless maybe he has managed to clone himself)

personally I liked the way the sex-scenes were in DA2; they got across the character's personality, they weren't 'tasteless', as in not much uncanney-valley-esque nudity was involved.

The way the relationships were written was lacking, though, which I blame for the short development-time. It was way too easy to mess up your chances, because there was just the certain way the game wanted the romance to evolve, which led you to picking who you want to romance, rather than having the relationship develop more naturally.

And at least with the romances with Morrigan and Isabela sex is not the endgame in the relationship; they both will sleep with you easily, but the relationship develops after that, and I'm pretty sure Morrigan will stop sleeping with you if she falls in love with you because feelings.

Also they did adress this issue to some extent in the DA2.

In DAO you get the achievement for romance if you have sex with the character, in the sequel you get an achievement for flirting, and for the romance, which you get when you talk to your love interest before the final battle; it changes it from the sex being what you pursue to relationship being the goal, with sex something that happens on the way.
 

kmg90

New member
Jan 21, 2009
78
0
0
orangeapples said:
I like God of War's approach to sex. You get a mini-game and if you do bad the girls are disappointed and Kratos just stands there thinking, "I swear, this has never happened to me before. Let me try it again." because that's all sex is, right? a really awkward minigame with quicktime events and a failstate that leaves everyone disappointed and some people crying in shame. but you do get better with practice.
/thread
Avoiding the ban-hammer with one worded reply,

I've always found "romance side quests" in games to be exactly how Jim explains it. It's an attempt at maturity and in some cases trying to scream "I am art, lets add nudity cause that's art in racey way"

I see Mature video games taking cues from Premium networks that have original programming (HBO, Showtime, Max)as in it's Mature and it isn't regular cable, so lets have a drawn out sex scene that adds nothing important to the overall story.
 

Colt47

New member
Oct 31, 2012
1,065
0
0
Honestly, most of the sex scenes in the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games were weird. Largely because outside of a few moments things just didn't seem to add up. Sex really isn't an indicator of how close someone is to someone else on it's own unless the decision involves family making or ties into some personality quirk. But then if the whole decision was based on family making, the indicator of closeness would be the decision to make a family rather than the act of sex itself.
 

Spiridion

New member
Oct 17, 2011
73
0
0
Sushewakka said:
Hawkeye21 said:
quantumsoul said:
In Dragon Age: Origins sex wasn't the always the endgame. If you pursue Morrigan you can have sex from the start but later on in the romance she even refuses sex if she is in love. I wont spoil anything but her romance becomes about something far greater than just sex. There is even DLC to continue the romance past the main game and there isn't even sex at the end of it.
But then developers chickened out and refused to continue that storyline any further. Yah, sure, we know that Morrigan is going to be in Inquisition, but protagonist is not Gray Warden from the first game, so whats the point. It really buggers me when devs start a great story line and then refuse to give it an appropriate ending, thus completely making the whole thing meaningless.
(SPOILERS FOR DRAGON AGE: ORIGINS)

After using the Warden to complete her Old God Baby plot, or after the Warden refuses to play his role in that plot, she leaves. Surprise, she has her own agenda and motivations, and will see them finished, the Warden becoming little more than an obstacle at this point. She might feel a tinge of regret and be conflicted about her newfound ability to feel emotions, but she's her own person with her own plans.

There, that's your conclusion. She leaves you.
I will preface this by saying that I haven't actually played this DLC so I can't offer commentary on how much it added to the narrative as a whole. But, I do know that if you play Witch Hunt:
You have the opportunity to find Morrigan again and if you were in a romance and chose to have a kid with her it's possible to go with her at the end and it's implied that you'll get to meet the child.

In regards to the broader topic, I actually rather like Bioware romances. But I do tend to skip the actual "sex scenes" since they mostly just look awkward and don't really add to the experience for me. As someone that likes to play games for the story/characters, the aspect of getting to know a character better is the appealing part of romances options for me. I know some people will just bang everyone in the camp/on the ship because they can, but at least when I play I tend to choose one person I actually like/want to get to know as a character and stick with them, which does give the romance a bit more significance. I may, however, romance a different character on a different playthrough, depending on the sort of character I'm playing, at least in DA:O. In Mass Effect I could never bring myself to romance anyone but Liara, and in DA2 I just sort of wanted to punch everyone but Isabella so I'm pretty "committed" in those games I guess. And if I choose to play a female character in KotOR I tend to not romance anyone, because even though there are options, none of them interest me.

I will say, however, that I don't like the idea of attaching achievements to romance options, because then they do become a goal rather than something that just progresses "naturally."
 

Hawkeye21

New member
Oct 25, 2011
248
0
0
Sushewakka said:
After using the Warden to complete her Old God Baby plot, or after the Warden refuses to play his role in that plot, she leaves. Surprise, she has her own agenda and motivations, and will see them finished, the Warden becoming little more than an obstacle at this point. She might feel a tinge of regret and be conflicted about her newfound ability to feel emotions, but she's her own person with her own plans.

There, that's your conclusion. She leaves you.
There is no resolution in this so called "conclusion", this is a non-ending, sort of like a cliff-hanger. The whole "witch hunt DLC" was bullshit from start to finish. It's just a cheap cop-out of the plot. I suppose it could also count as a sequel-hook, except sequel makes little to no mention of Morrigan.
 

Legion

Were it so easy
Oct 2, 2008
7,186
0
0
Imp Emissary said:
Legion said:
Imp Emissary said:
Was kind of talking about this with a friend a bit ago.
I really wish they replaced the sex scenes with something a little more interesting to do. Like say taking them out on dates as a mini quest after you make the relationship "official". Get to know the characters, just for the sake of getting to know them. Instead of getting to know them so you can get into their pants easier.
Then the game gets called a dating simulator and the "You need a girlfriend/boyfriend" comments start. On the Bioware forums a lot of people wanted this for Mass Effect 2 as DLC or in Mass Effect 3. The people against it stated the above as the reason for why it shouldn't. They saw it as perpetuating the lonely nerd stereotype.
xD Don't people already make those comments?
Naturally. I get the impression most people do it as a defensive reaction out of fear of being seen as a typical geek. Although why somebody would be bothered about that while spending time on a gaming forum is beyond me. I do not know of any "non-geeky" people who do it, so by that point the threshold has been crossed really.

Also, as for it being called a "dating sim", I guess I'd have to ask; So?

They already kind of are, except we don't get to send as much time just learning about the character. And as for the "you Girlfriend/Boyfriend" thing, I know of a fair amount of people who play Mass Effect/Dragon Age who take the romances "seriously", and who are married in real life.
No argument from me, I am not bothered by people calling them that. I don't see anything wrong with getting invested in fiction.

The "dates" wouldn't be there to make the characters into a substitute for a spouse, but rather they would be there so we could get to learn more about the characters. Something I would imagine people who really like the characters would enjoy.

The most interesting thing about sleeping with Isabela in Dragon Age 2 was that you could then learn more about her past.
That is why I don't really agree that Bioware are that bad with them. In Mass Effect it can be worse, but in Dragon Age the romances are pretty much the only way to learn certain things about the characters, and in most cases are entirely miss-able. If it was made for pandering and as a "goal" it wouldn't be something you could quite easily miss if you aren't paying attention.

That isn't to say they couldn't be written better, but the only time I really felt like it was "Say nice things and get to sex" was Mass Effect 2.

As for the dates themselves, they don't necessarily have to just be going to some restaurant or something "ordinary" like that.

It could, like I said, be a quest you do with just them.
Like exploring a derelict Geth ship with Tali, going sailing with Isabela (and most likely having to fight off raiders), or going off with Garrus to practice shooting.

Heck, some off those things are already done with the characters, and you don't even need to be in a relationship with them to go. In fact, it would just be nice to be able to do more quests with your companions, and get to know them better while playing the game.

The "dates" wouldn't need to be too different from that, except in the narrative the player's character is in a relationship with them.
That was the kind of thing I was hoping for with Mass Effect 3. Bioware excels at character arcs much more than overall stories, so I wanted to them to concentrate on making the personal stories for the companions quite a large focus. I recall saying on the Bioware forums some time ago that they don't really need to make the relationships and friendships all that different. Certain aspects sure, seeing as friendships and relationships are not different purely because of sex, but they don't need to be entirely based upon being "romance".
 

deathbydeath

New member
Jun 28, 2010
1,363
0
0
I'm reminded of the "romantic" relationship in Dan Abnett's Eisenhorn trilogy between Gregor Eisenhorn and Alezebeth Bequin. Perhaps one of the reasons I like it so much is because the relationship never actually culminates in sex or really has sex in it at all; it focuses purely on the dynamic between the two great characters and the symbolism behind their interactions.
 

WouldYouKindly

New member
Apr 17, 2011
1,431
0
0
Wait, there's such a thing as high class porn?

I thought it was something like there's regular porn. There's "amateur" porn. There's filthy disgusting porn that you will undoubtedly find attractive once you get sick of the regular stuff.
 

deathbydeath

New member
Jun 28, 2010
1,363
0
0
Sgt. Sykes said:
And if I can pretend to be good at shooting people, why can't I pretend I can bone someone just by giving them gifts?

I mean, it's escapism.
It's also creepy escapism that can lead to some pretty squicky shit if that road is traveled too far.
 

Pyrokinesis

New member
Dec 3, 2007
185
0
0
Jim, you should really do a video on the Totalbiscut Vs Garry's Incident going on. Its on youtube's terrible copyright system, its abuse, and reviewer censorship. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfgoDDh4kE0
 

tyriless

New member
Aug 27, 2010
234
0
0
Wait a second. So it is ok that murder a ton of people, more than I can even dare to count, but consensual intercourse is suddenly off-limits? As one American to another: you've been in this county a little too long.

And why exactly is this a problem? Are you worried how this industry is going to be perceived? Shame on you then, because critics of our favorite media are going to lambast everything we do until they grow too old to be listened to and are replaced by people who know what they are talking about.

Are you insinuating that I actually will go out and have an unhealthy relationship because I play these games? I find your concern for me insulting. You don't get to be my vanguard of decency. I can discern the difference between game mechanics that simulates a relationship and the real deal.

Jim, this is going to be one of the times you ranted and , later on, you will either figure out you were wrong or someone's going to point out to you how off-base you are.

This has been a rare misfire as your rants go.
 

Mr_Terrific

New member
Oct 29, 2011
163
0
0
LiquidGrape said:
Dragon Age 2 is a great argument to the contrary, actually. Isabela, for example, whose sex scene occurs in the first act and is nowhere near the romantic climax of that relationship.

Did you ever play the game? Just curious since it would've deflated pretty much this entire issue.
This whole episode is just another excuse to throw shit at Cage. The sex scenes in DAO and DA2 were well done and most of the relationships have meaning after the fact. If you are in a relationship with one character and have sex, you'll ruin that relationship if you sleep with another character or even attempt to do it.

----------------------------------------

The issue here is the fact that Jim seems to think that his reasons for sexing up the ladies is and should be universal and it's not.

Sometimes, we just want to fuck. No strings or consequences. Believe it or not, woman are like that as well. Woman just want a piece of ass. I've actually been told to get out before her kids wake up. She wasn't trying to cuddle or any of that other shit Jim is on. Hell, I didn't even talk to her again until she wanted more ass.

Sometimes, sex is just sex and if you've been with more than a few partners, you'd know better.

I don't expect Jim to understand.
 

Aardvaarkman

I am the one who eats ants!
Jul 14, 2011
1,262
0
0
I think the world needs porn starring Jim. It's a gaping hole in the market, and it needs to be filled.
 

Zeldias

New member
Oct 5, 2011
282
0
0
The issue to me is that a relationship in these games is never really represented. The NPCs that you target for romance (because that's how the shit feels to me given that it's so purposeful) basically just have some conversations with you, open up about some shit, maybe say something like "I've never told anyone/you wouldn't understand/OMG I like you bunches!" then you do nice stuff for them and you fuck. After the fucking, there often isn't anywhere else to go because now you're in love and shit is hunky-dory. The only Bioware relationships I can think of that buck this trend would be Alistair keeping you as a mistress, Morrigan, DA2's Isabella, DA2's Anders, and Liara if you romance her from ME1 to ME3. ME3's Citadel DLC was pretty great for fighting this, too.

It would be much more interesting to see interactions that are outside of this paradigm, but the issue might be the design of RPGs as they are today. No NPC ever actually courts the player, there are no Citadel-style moments where you just have a nice evening with your significant other sappily singing a musical to each other or going out on a date, or any of the other interactions that humans typically have. It really does dehumanize and reduce sex to a victory condition as opposed to a thing that happens between adults with chemistry and mutual attraction. The time and space for such interactions just isn't being made (I guess because it would seem out of place to have character-focused moments in such a character-focused subnarrative as a romantic arc?).

Shit, I would pay for more of this kind of stuff as DLC even. The romance can't just spring from mechanically handing people things and strategically agreeing with them (or disagreeing maybe in the case of DA2); we need intimate character moments, both large and small, that help build a sense not just of falling in love, but of a budding and lasting relationship.

EDIT://

And to folks missing the point, Jim is making the point that in the west, you frequently hear men complain about not getting their person of interest in this configuration: "She friend-zoned me! Unbelievable! I was nice, I did stuff for her, I did everything right! I can't believe she won't be with me!" This is an incredibly capitalist/mercantile view of romance that basically suggests that one didn't receive payment for services rendered: I did X, she did not do Y, therefore, I was cheated.

The play of video game romances follows suit: you are nice (choose the right responses), you do stuff for them (sidequests/give them things), and after correctly performing all of the tasks, you reach the reward, which is a sex scene and the NPC saying s/he loves you. Jim focuses on the misogyny of the thing presumably because women are typically the ones sexily showing skin (except for...Jacob in ME2. I can't think of anyone else other than in DA1 where both parties got down to their skivvies).

So Jim complains about WRPG romances generally boiling down to the most obvious mechanistic functions of gameplay design, and as a subset of that complaint, discusses how that design mirrors sexist romantic/sexual expectations in heterosexual relationships (which is both creepy and fucked up), then rounds it out by saying the pretension that this is a mature representation of sexual relationships is toxic to the culture at large by reinforcing both the pseudo-capitalist mercantile understanding that sex/love should be given for services rendered and the mainstream sexism of that same understanding as seen in the notion of the "friend-zone."

So to sum it up, the design of WRPG romance and sexuality is one, infantile and shitty because it works off of a mercantile understanding of human relationships, and two, reinforces those mercantile expectations as normally parroted in the "friend-zone" belaboring (which is sexist in that it essentially presumes a woman owes a man love for services rendered, reducing her from a complex being with multifaceted feelings and emotions to a customer unwilling to pay with love for services rendered and goes on to regard friendship with a woman whom one presumably likes to be an undesirable state).

Note: it is true that the friend-zone conversation comes up outside of heterosexual relationships and this should also be addressed. The main point that I took from it is that the design and illustration of sexual relationships in WRPGs is reducible to "render services, get laid," which is, at best, uninspired and banal, and at worst, reprehensible.
 

bificommander

New member
Apr 19, 2010
434
0
0
Based on my (s)experience with the mass effect series, I find some of Jim's complaints valid, some less so.

On the valid side, I never thought about the whole NiceGuy/Frienzone implications of the romance options, but I suppose the romance minigame does have an input/output feel to it. And within a single game, the sex scene is indeed portrayed as the capstone of the whole relationship, no further exploration of the emotional side is given. And yeah, for all their high-and-mighty statements, titilation is a factor of their appeal.

On the invalid side, I don't recal giving presents to be a part of the Mass Effect romance options. It was about talking with the partner and getting along with them. That is a real and neccesary part of a real relationship too, though it is true that it shouldn't automatically result in a romance. But, especially in the earlier games, it wasn't. There were quite a few crew members you could talk to and befriend, but who would never sleep with you. Only some apparently kind of liked you, and would consider you as a romantic partner if they "got to know you". Admittedly, this fell a bit by the wayside in later games, where you could romance everything with a pulse and a roughly human shape. And where they started adding pointless characters that added nothing to the plot to your crew, just to give you more shagging material.

And another point is that you could, if you looked, find a bit more of an overarching romance-arc if you played several games. My fem-shep dated Liara in the first game, but since I didn't own Lair of the Shadowbroker, she's not a romantic partner in ME2. I didn't feel like romancing any of the other characters, so I did nothing. And that resulted in a short scene with just Shepard in her room, wistfully looking at a picture of Liara. No sex, but romance. It's a small thing, and it would be nice if there'd been a little bit more of that overarching feel, but it was there.

And in a character-driven RPG like Mass Effect, I'll say that yes, titilation aside, I am interested in the romance options for the romance. Let's face it, if you just want to see sex, there are much easier ways of watching much more explicit material than these games will ever give you. I wanted to do the romance plots because I liked the characters and wanted to see them hook up.

(Side note: On my first playthrough of ME3, I didn't have my old saves. I noticed that my favourite character in the team, Tali, was now a possible romantic partner, so my clean-slate male-shep tried to woe her. And then the Geth-Quarian conflict exploded in my face because my actions from ME2 weren't saved. And my paragon Shepard could not just let the Quarians, who'd been following the lead of the trigger-happy maniac the whole time, just wipe out all the Geth. So I helped the Geth, thinking the Quarians would pipe the fuck down once I did. They didn't, they got wiped out and Tali killed herself. A punch in the gut that was, let me tell you, but I refused to reload my save. That was my character's moral decision, and if that meant the girl he loved died, he'd just have to live with that.)

So, bottom line, there's something to Jim's complaints, but I don't think sex scenes can't add anything to a game. I don't know an easy way to fix the give-the-right-answers-in-X-conversations-and-get-laid problem without making the game arbitarily dump two characters in bed, but a few more major characters who just aren't romantically interested in your character might downplay the suggestion that sex is simply bought with sufficient nice answers. And don't treat the sex-scenes like a the victory-screen of the romantic minigame, equivalent to the good-ending cutscene of the main game. Show more of the emotional part relationship, especially afterward. Having it carry over to the sequel is a plus.
 

barbzilla

He who speaks words from mouth!
Dec 6, 2010
1,465
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
Sexual Failing

Some developers will have you believe they are purveyors of tasteful, mature, adult sexual content. Some developers are talking out of their arses.

Watch Video
3 or 4 times? You married too soon my friend.

In all seriousness though; The obligatory sex scenes in Bioware games are starting to grate on me. I was really hoping it would pass, but here we are, almost a whole new generation of machines in, and we still can't get over the sex scene. In reality it is nothing more than a skinner box for the NPC interaction BS.

Anyway, Thank god for you Jim!