Oddly TOR did it well, the screen simply fades to black and nothing no sound not odd screen wobble nothing, and its well acted post and pre.Tombsite said:As is often the case I more or less agree with all Jim had to say. Two points though:
1. All sex/intemecy sceens in games are crepy. It is more or less a set of virtual Barbie and Ken dolls getting mashed together. Not sexy and not interesting really.
2. Could we try to not have "love" and sex being the only relationships men and women can have in games (I know there are exceptions but they are few)
1. The problem is that there was legitmate criticism, and praise for Bayonetta (was there ridiculous hate from some areas? Sure, but even CoD has it's dedicated hater base in critics). But those get overlooked. Because it's easier for a developer/artist/publisher to point out the full stop negative articles and use it as an excuse to not try again.Treblaine said:Length snippin
How in the world is declaring that there is an industrywide problem targetting a small group?Windknight said:Except, you know, he's not starting a war. He's not declaring war. He's not trying to turn this into a war. And neither am I. We're just pointing out there is a problem that needs to be looked at, thought about, and dealt with. With dialogue.Gladys Knight said:People like Jim need to stop starting wars and putting the very people you want to support you at odds. We have to stop ignoring the roots and looking at things in vacuums, taking snapshots and going HEY! I don't call Hockey racist because it's predominantly white players nor would I walk into a bar that regularly plays hockey games on the television and say it's discriminating against other races based entirely on the fact that they are not patronizing that establishment because it doesn't appeal to them.
The problem is when this is brought to light, there are people on both sides willing to start a fight, or turn this into a fight. And often, the first salvo is fired by people who reduce feminist leanings to strawmen they saw in a tv sitcom, or some stand-up comic made jokes about, or some right-wing radio jockey has told them want to castrate them and wear their balls as a trophy.
Geuss what? when he made his offer, he wasn't making it to you. Let me give a personal example - on xbox live I've had heckling asking me if I'm gay, or of I'm 'a fag', etc. My response - 'Why, do you want a boyfriend?'. That is what he is doing. His comment is aimed specifically at the small minded, raging types who would take offence to being asked that sort of thing because of their emotional insecurities. He's trolling the trolls, and if your not a troll, it shouldn't offend you.
Why should it be on us to make the games? Why should the industry ignore every element of its potential market, and focus instead on pleasing male teenagers alone? And why is pointing this out 'declaring war'? Why is saying 'this is not ok mr game maker, could we get some representation too please?'' being aggressive?Gladys Knight said:That's the non-war version. What really is the point of all these attacks regarding sexism and whatnot? We saw a girl raise over 100K to TALK about video games. Where are the kickstarters to actually MAKE these progressive games with the values and progressive ideas? And I'm not trying to say "go out and make your own games" although that's what a lot of people, young, old, rich and poor, did. More that it's weird how much we talk about how the industry is growing as far as patrons but it shouldn't grow as far as who is contributing to the works within.
So yeah... To me it's declaring war. Because we don't have to be fighting. I don't feel like I have to go to battle with XBox live idiots and their "organized" campaign of intolerance of certain groups in order for me to have a good time with people who I know or who have been proven to not suck.
I'm really not seeing your reasoning here. Honestly, it looks more like you want to see it as an attack, you want to see it as aggression when it just is not. and to put it simply, if you see raising awareness of a problem as someone declaring war, then you have to ask yourself why you are seeing it as such.As far as starting a war... Yes. He is starting one. And/or contributing to one. A lot of people love to dial it back and say "hey, we just want to talk about these things." But talking is just that. Talking. We can try to act as if this is all just talking and no discernible words are being said and no messages sent. Two guys yelling racial slurs at some guy across the street are "just talking." I find it very odd that when people call the message out many like to dial it back to "just talking." As if they want to posit opposition as a general opposition for their right to say things.
Agreed. However, neither AI programming issues nor model development issues are inexhaustible excuses. As programming becomes more sophisticated more will be possible. Over time criticisms or this kind will become fairer.Treblaine said:I don't think the under-representation of females in gaming is helped by attacking developers for struggling to overcome the problems with AI.
I also think the criticisms of female representation has left the message of "next time, don't even bother" as it's not really criticism in the sense of "we want more of this, and less of that" or "why can't we have more characters like these".
A review of Tomb Raider from Good Game at the beginning of this month stands out:Treblaine said:When was the last time you heard PRAISE for a female character in video games? Even looking at a small aspect, any "criticism" fails to be constructive with the agenda of "is this character good or bad". More often bad. We can't talk about how awesome a female character is without a load of people coming in with how awful that female character is.
Many shooters do have rather generic protagonists, but it is not quite as straight forward in other genres.Treblaine said:Really?Males in games frequently have more intricate and complex personalities than their female counterparts.
The trend I see is of protagonist/player-characters being men and then being "blank slates" or as close to blank slates as possible, for various reasons. It's the supporting characters who very often end up being women and they have a lot to reveal about their character... even have a character arc.
I think it may have something to do with the need some people (and even societies themselves) have to put things in clearly defined boxes. They see men and women as two separate groups with established personality types limited to their respective gender and sexuality.Mr.Squishy said:Okay, so I'm confused here.
Some people are saying that female characters shouldn't be prevented from having the same traits as male characters and that traits aren't necessarily gender-specific. Okay, yeah, I get that, makes sense. One guy put it very well, I won't bother paraphrasing him to the word, but basically he said that there isn't any significant difference in how you write a male or a female character.
But then I see someone saying that there are ways of writing women that are 'incorrect', and basically serve only to make a man with tits. Now hang on a second, what?
What the hell kind of sense does that make? And how did we get this split and self-contradictory? Why do these kinds of threads always spiral off into batshit insanity?
Please, answers are appreciated.
I saw someone earlier with the quote that 20% of players chose female Shepard.Disgruntledgrrl said:The big thing I did not see mentioned was if the gang behind Mass Effect ever bothered to track the trend of people choosing to play the female Shephard?
I think that's data the industry could use.
The figure was 18%, and it was for the third game. However, it was only for first playthroughs, so its possible more played as femshep on a second play.Easton Dark said:I saw someone earlier with the quote that 20% of players chose female Shepard.
At least in the third game, I believe.
Brevity would be appreciated though.wolfwood_is_here said:If my posts are long, perhaps it is because I am putting more effort into thinking about what I am saying?
No I've assigned stupidity. Paranoia is stupidity, it's reacting of something that isn't there, and I don't have to follow Hanlon's Razor.Treblaine said:You are failing Hanlon's razor because you have assigned malice to that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. You are failing Occam's razor because the simpler explanation, that greed alone is at fault, is "better" than that they are both greedy and sexist. The burden of proof is on you to show that they are actually sexist and not just greedy.
Saying "they are" isn't sufficient evidence.
You never heard of the phrase ?painting by numbers? it's not science. Science it's numbers any more than card reading has predictive powers.Doing "art by the numbers", you mean like with statistics? Which is part of math? Which is a foundational concept to science?
What's new is justifying it as an imperative, before it was nothing but personal greed of those who collected the profits, now those who take home bonuses after reaching milestones still feel they must push further at all costs.This isn't new. Any thorough study of industry would show that it has always been bumping up against the borders of legality and abuse. Ever heard of child labor? Chemical dumping? Smog?
Hey, I didn't say they were exceptionally idiots, I'm just saying they are idiots.I don't disagree the publishers are stupid, but I have yet to see one major problem that another industry hasn't already gone through, or is not still struggling with. This snowflake syndrome can't pass soon enough.
Or perhaps you aren't aware that the automotive industry has, after almost 50 years, still not figured out how to advertise to women? When the majority of drivers are (as of 2010) women, and women play a role in the majority of car buying decisions?
You aren't being scientific though, not on arbitrary dichotomies like you have made.Numbers are absolutes. Science itself relies on absolutes to work. With absolutes you have a "right" and "wrong". Without absolutes, there is no "right" or "wrong", and what becomes "right" and "wrong" is merely a matter of dates.
No straw man, I was pointing out that preference in a loaded choice (like chose Mass Effect shepard gender) isn't the basis of exclusion.Then you're straw-manning. If their inclusion is not vital, their exclusion is also irrelevant.
Everyone is. Gears of War is a work of art, very low brow, but still art. Art and entertainment can be one and the same.Who is buying art for "artistic integrity"? Art is a form of entertainment. If there is no entertainment, nobody is going to care about the art. How could we change that? It should sound very familiar: education. Teach people how and why to appreciate the art.
Otherwise it's just oppression for the sake of beliefs, and we know how well everyone loves that.
I never heard nor accepted that greed for money even was the solution. Games have to be made for money, but ultimately they have to be made also for the sake of making them. Steven Spielberg didn't just want money, he wanted to make Jurassic Park and he wanted to make Schindler's List.If greed is supposed to be the solution, how can greed also be the problem?
If you tell me again what I am and am not doing again I'll put your on my ignore list as a waste of my time. No replies. No nothing.It's sad because we have the same goals, but you're so busy trying to wage an imaginary crusade
I'm not going to reply to any more double-talk. This is either from being too clueless on how you are using words or are using a convenient double standard. I have no more time for either.that you can't tell friend from foe. Despite using things like "I" and "I believe", somehow I am talking for everyone else? Is it so hard to believe that there can be more than "two sides" in an issue?
I claimed to speak for myself, something you then confirm one sentence later, so where are you wrong? Do I or don't I speak for myself?
The fact that there is a character there to not like is something distinct from nothing there to Gordon Freeman's character to approve of nor reject.James Charles said:
The problem is how even gaming critics like Jim didn't take into account the inherent limitations of the medium in his rant.Fiairflair said:Agreed. However, neither AI programming issues nor model development issues are inexhaustible excuses. As programming becomes more sophisticated more will be possible. Over time criticisms or this kind will become fairer.
The problem is this doesn't break down aspects of the character, it's just a relatively small piece of approval. Not like how it is in attack where aspects of the character are picked apart in the negative.A review of Tomb Raider from Good Game at the beginning of this month stands out:
With this brilliant re-imagining of Lara, she really is one of the most powerful, relatable, and truly human heroes, irrespective of gender, that I've encountered in a game. This experience manages to be exciting, mature, gritty and well paced. All while showcasing a host of fluid mechanics and animations that bring this gripping story to life almost flawlessly. It's 10 out of 10 from me.
- Stephanie "Hex" Bendixsen. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/goodgame/stories/s3703900.htm
Hang on a minute, a lot of those are games where you have the option of playing as a woman and/or have very "blank slate" protagonists.Many shooters do have rather generic protagonists, but it is not quite as straight forward in other genres.
The following are lists of Role Playing and Action/Adventure games that have sold well over the last three years, derived from http://www.vgchartz.com/
Dragon Quest Monsters: Terry's Wonderland 3D (released only in Japan)
Dragon Warrior VII
Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, The
Final Fantasy XIII-2
Guild Wars 2
Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance
Mass Effect 3
Monster Hunter Tri
Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch
Pokemon Black / White
Sly Cooper: Thieves in Time
Star Wars: The Old Republic
Sword Art Online: Infinity Moment
World of Warcraft: Musts of Pandaria
Animal Crossing: New Leaf
Assassin's Creed III
Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood
Assassin's Creed: Revelations
Batman: Arkham City
Dynasty Warriors 8
God of War: Ascension
Grand Theft Auto IV
Kinect Star Wars
Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D, The
Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, The
LEGO Batman 2: DC Super Heroes
Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
New Super Mario Bros. U
New Super Mario Bros. Wii
One Piece Pirate Musou
Paper Mario: Sticker Star
Professor Layton and the Last Specter
Red Dead Redemption
Resident Evil 6
Saints Row: The Third
Senran Kagura Shinovi Verses: Shoujotachi no Shoumei
Skylanders: Spyro's Adventure
Tomb Raider (2013)
Uncharted 2: Among Thieves
Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception
Uncharted: Golden Abyss
Walking Dead: A Telltale Game Series, The
A trend toward "blank slates" need not prevent us from assessing the extent of female characterisation in games compared to the extent of male characterisation in games. Judging from these lists, my overall impression (for what it is worth) is what I said before. Males in games frequently have more intricate and complex personalities than their female counterparts. This includes supporting characters.