Jimquisition: Vertigo

[wulf3n]

Also, if publishers are so good at knowing what will sell, why is something like Kickstarter even needed or for that matter successful? If a Kickstarted project is incredibly successful and went to Kickstarter specifically because publishers passed on the idea, wouldn't that indicate that traditional publishers are working from incorrect or incomplete data? Shouldn't every Kickstarter for a game that publishers passed on fail if publishers are so good at knowing what people will buy?

Success in kickstarter isn't the same as success from a Publishers perspective.

Looking at one of the most successful video game kickstarter projects, the Double Fine Adventure, we see there were 87,142 backers. In contrast Square-Enix were disappointed because Tomb Raider didn't sell 6 million in its first month.

So a successful kickstarter isn't really demonstrating incorrect data from the Publishers perspective.

 

[Banzaiman]

I don't think I can take much more of this stuff being thrown around before my skull collapses in on itself and snuffs out my brain.

Mine has already...

OT: I'm behind Jim on the demand for more playable female protagonists - preferably morally gray or even a villain, because they tend to be more interesting - that don't rely on a man or trauma as their personal drive. Whether that attracts more female gamers or not I don't know (fingers crossed it does, because Hey! more people to talk to), but I do know that I want a character like that. Because hey, it's females + villains, it has to radiate badass.

The only thing I'm unsure about is the 'not conventionally attractive' thing. Don't get me wrong, variety is great and all, but... why? Most men probably won't like it, a lot of women probably won't like it, if both demographics probably won't like it it just seems like a bad idea. Yay for variety, but still.

 

[Looming_Shadows]

jim looks like a splicer

 

[vagabondwillsmile]

It's a little strange how this thread has developed. I do agree with Jim and many other critics in that there does need to be more diversity, less objectification, and an increased focus within the industry on inclusion of female gamers and further developing their agency.

What I find a unsettling though, is that for every cool, unique, not-traditionally sexy/objectified character suggested from other commenters, there is a host of reasons as to why these characters are disqualified. These reasons, all together, eliminate the alternate choices principally because they don't meet the criteria set out in Jim's innitial argument. Which is where I think there could be some issue taken. The criteria of the innitial argument, is so stringent, and arguably, so unrealistic, that I'm not at all surprised only a dinosaur from the 90's can meet them.

I would postulate that it is objectification on the opposite end of of the spectrum. Look at the comments suggesting alternate choices of female characters and look at the responses again. Amy is cool, but not mean enough. Lucca is tough, but she's still too cute. Character X isn't cute, but her motivations are too traditional. Character Y is a beast but her commanding officer is a man.

See what's happening? The logic of the argument is collapsing on itself and creating a new set of impossible to meet standards by which an audience of young men - I presume that is what most of us are in this forum - are once again judging women.

Saying, "Nah - she's too pretty, she's too nice, she listens to her bf too much, etc." is just as objectifying as saying "She's not pretty enough, she's too indpendent, she's too mean".

We are still engaged in the act of objectifying and that objectification is self-defeating if our goal is diversity, inclusion, and agency. The discussion that ultimately needs to happen is how does the industry move forward in developing characters with respect to females in mind. When there are female protogagonists in a given game it would behoove a developer to wonder if the character is pandering, unrealistic, over-sexualized, etc. And even then, female characters like this can in - the right contexts - contribute something profound to a story and even agency. It all depends on how the developer handles it.

In the end, I think the operative word in considering developement of female protagonists and inclusion of female gamers is simply, "RESPECT". Respect the character, respect the content of the story and the world in which it is set, respect the audience. I don't mean tread lightly, or avoid taking risks - in fact, quite the contrary - all art forms can engage, provoke, even intentionally enrage, all while respecting story, character, and audience. If a developer has this concept in mind, regardless of looks, personality, motivation, or any other trait, the character that results will - I would garantee it - potentially be interesting, and enjoyable for both men and women.

But it often takes an extreme stance - an argument whose logic intentionally borders on the ridiculous, to encourage us into dialogue on an issue. I see the principle in Jim's argument; and while I can see the flaw in the logic of it, I also see the necessity in making it, and applaud it for encouraging our continued dialogue.

 

[Pat Hulse]

Also, if publishers are so good at knowing what will sell, why is something like Kickstarter even needed or for that matter successful? If a Kickstarted project is incredibly successful and went to Kickstarter specifically because publishers passed on the idea, wouldn't that indicate that traditional publishers are working from incorrect or incomplete data? Shouldn't every Kickstarter for a game that publishers passed on fail if publishers are so good at knowing what people will buy?

Success in kickstarter isn't the same as success from a Publishers perspective.

Looking at one of the most successful video game kickstarter projects, the Double Fine Adventure, we see there were 87,142 backers. In contrast Square-Enix were disappointed because Tomb Raider didn't sell 6 million in its first month.

So a successful kickstarter isn't really demonstrating incorrect data from the Publishers perspective.

It remains to be seen how many people will buy "Broken Age" when it is released, but Kickstarted games like FTL have sold well beyond their initial Kickstarter backers, so it stands to reason that one shouldn't judge the success of a Kickstarted game by its backers alone. Also, Square-Enix's disappointment has widely been considered to be ridiculously moronic. Also, Kickstarted games rarely have any kind of significant marketing budget. Marketing is done almost entirely through word-of-mouth.

 

[Erttheking]

I honestly don't see how getting neurotic over whether a videogame character ticks some checkboxes one has made up is worth anyone's time.

If you don't want my tl;dr version, this = What I said, but more concise

Checkbox media creation is what we should all be AGAINST, not advocating.

Um...you do know that what's really happening is more the exact opposite right? We're not asking all women to be presented against a checkbox list. We're asking them to STOP being presented a checkbox list. A massive proportion female main characters are pretty, aren't evil, or aren't as empowering as male characters. Jim is asking people to STOP using checkboxes and to get out of comfort zones.

Saying not doing that is like saying that asking for male main characters who aren't white browned haired hetrosexual men in their mid 30s is forcing developers to commit to checkboxes, they ALREADY are committed to checkboxes. And no one is saying that you can't have those characters, they're saying "Something different every once in awhile would be nice."

 

[DrOswald]

What about Claire from Thomas Was Alone? She's a big blue square, hardly "conventionally attractive".

That kind of fits almost perfectly with Jim's point - you have to look for things like lizards, rats, aliens, and geometric objects to find "female" characters that are outside the norm. If you look at more humanoid characters, the numbers go way down. I'm sure there are people out there who get aroused by quadrilaterals, but it's the exception that proves the rule.

To be fair, virtually any depicted woman who isn't especially ugly or fat is usually going to be considered attractive. The same is not true of men. Feminine attributes are considered beautiful by default while masculine attributes are not.

Plus, there is far more variety in what an attractive woman can look like than an attractive man. Women can wear any color and have thousands of fashion options available, including everything available to men. Their hair can be any length, color and again there are hundreds if not thousands of styles to choose from that are considered feminine and beautiful. Women can be very tall or very short, petite or curvy, or anything in between. Women can wear an almost infinite variety of make up styles. Their bodies can be completely covered in tattoos or have any skin color (including colors like pink or green.) They can even have horns, scales, extra limbs and other alien traits. All of this without ever even falling out of "conventionally" attractive. The options for attractive male characters are far more limited.

This means that you can have thousands of attractive and feminine female characters without ever repeating yourself while attractive and masculine males start feeling the same after a few dozen. This means that if a character designer wants to make a male character interesting they need to branch out of the typical masculine stereotypes. There is no such need with female characters. That alone probably accounts for a great deal of the uniformity of female characters as young and beautiful. Creativity is often the solution to a problem.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

If no one has mentioned her, Wynne from the first Dragonage game.

Spoiler: Image

She's an older gal, has some cool moments in the game, has what I consider to be a lot of character.

I agree that this is a silly situation in the games industry, I'd like more female leads and of different types, because I would find it interesting. A fresh perspective on stuff.

I do love Wynne.

Spoiler: Spoiler warning!

It's a damn shame we won't be seeing her ever again in the games.

That said Shamus young can point out why she doesn't quite fit for Jims list.
Still a great character though.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/stolen-pixels/6848-Stolen-Pixels-148-Dragon-Aged

I never got that "armor" set. Always had her in robes etc, I did really like her though and you got to play as her if you wanted, same with any of the characters. That's something Liked about the game in general.

Indeed.

I think Shale would be a good candidate as well.

Spoiler: xD Even though she did walk around naked all the time.

 

[Dragonbums]

The one thing I really love about these debates is that often times the pandered to demographic are the first ones to state "why does it matter?" Get angry at political correctness invading their games, yet at the same time use their own political correctness tactics to defend the status quota which usually follows the lines of "most people who play videogames are white, straight, heterosexual males, so therefore it's reasonable for devs to make characters that only represent that group". This is despite the fact that they often say it doesn't matter even when most of them go out of their way to fight feminists, poc groups, and LGBT+ community gamers every step of the way when they advocate for videogames to cater to them so they too can get a piece of that fictional escapism pie.

For instance, in the entirety of videogame history, I can literally only think of two videogame character sans customizable games like Monster Hunter, Skyrim, etc. That even so much as represents half of my traits. That's it. Just two. If I were to bring that up, I will be slammed with the same political correctness examples I have stated above, and basically told to quite whining by the same group of people who never once had to experience a moment where there was one medium that was never catered to them.

You can tell this very hypocrisy is prevalent just by looking at the sheer amount of users who did not understand the joke WGDF Critical Miss comic was making.

You can see it, when people flipped their shit over the fact that an equal amount of Mass Effect 3 ads, featured Maleshep and Femshep.

You can see it when people were pissed at the option to gay romance in Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 (although I will acknowledge that they shouldn't of made points against you for not doing them.)despite the fact that many homosexuals had to put up for years with playing with characters that always romanced straight characters despite that not being for them, and woman apparently are supposed to put up with "teh gays"(guys this is sarcasm please don't take this seriously) because she is playing as a guy, and has to watch this guy bang a chick.

OT: Same can be said for how female characters are designed and for their motivations. Not many female characters today are evil, sadistic, good, etc. for the sake of it. It's always gotta be the case of being dragged into the flow. Never really just jumping right in because she is a sadistic son of a *****.
Same with looks. I'm glad Jim brought up GoW. In a crew of grizzled, tired, men, it makes no sense for the female cast to not look grizzled, tired, and worn down. No, slapping dirt textures on their face doesn't count. I want to see it emit from them.
I want to see those ladies look older than they are, have some wrinkles here and there, a strand of gray hair cropping up. You know, like their male counterparts.

 

[wulf3n]

It remains to be seen how many people will buy "Broken Age" when it is released, but Kickstarted games like FTL have sold well beyond their initial Kickstarter backers, so it stands to reason that one shouldn't judge the success of a Kickstarted game by its backers alone.

Without knowing how far beyond their backers FTL sales have grown it's all just speculation. The total sales/backers could still fall within standard deviation parameters.

Also, Square-Enix's disappointment has widely been considered to be ridiculously moronic.

Perhaps, but it is their money to spend. If they want a nigh impossibly high return of investment then that's their prerogative. Their market research probably reflects this return of investment target. So just because they pass on games that may do well on kickstarter doesn't necessarily indicate incorrect market research.

Also, Kickstarted games rarely have any kind of significant marketing budget. Marketing is done almost entirely through word-of-mouth.

Yes, but unrelated to the correctness of their market research.

 

[Erttheking]

I honestly don't see how getting neurotic over whether a videogame character ticks some checkboxes one has made up is worth anyone's time.

If you don't want my tl;dr version, this = What I said, but more concise

Checkbox media creation is what we should all be AGAINST, not advocating.

Um...you do know that what's really happening is more the exact opposite right? We're not asking all women to be presented against a checkbox list. We're asking them to STOP being presented a checkbox list. A massive proportion female main characters are pretty, aren't evil, or aren't as empowering as male characters. Jim is asking people to STOP using checkboxes and to get out of comfort zones.

He's asking for us to create female characters by using checkbox lists by creating his own checkbox list. Oh but it's EXCLUSIONARY to make a point about some random 90's arcade fighter, so that totally makes it different.

Seems legit.

That argument would only make sense if he said that every last person that didn't meet those standards was a horrible character that was sexist. Two of the characters that he said didn't past the test are Samus Aran and Jade from Beyond Good and Evil. Did he say that? No he didn't in fact in the past he's said a lot of good things about Beyond Good and Evil. The male equivalent of this would be saying that just about every male character is white, in their mid thirties, hetrosexual and has brown hair and we should try doing something else. You don't need to stop liking Niko Belic or Chris Redfield, but maybe have an apple every once in awhile and not just chocolate ice cream.

I really don't see how this is a bad thing. It's basically the Bechdel Test. Not passing it isn't a bad thing. The sheer number of things that don't pass it is.

 

[Erttheking]

You know I always found the "What the market wants" argument to be really flimsy. According to 2K, the market wanted shooters and that strategy games were dead. A few years later, X-COM Enemy Unknown is loved and X-COM declassified is hated. The market operates on stereotypes. And a question. How can the market know that gamers only want attractive female characters if they barely release anything outside of their comfort zone. Because that's what this is. It isn't catering to market demands, it's a comfort zone. I'm pretty sure no one said they wanted a bureaucracy simulator, but I imagine plenty of people are very happy papers please got made, a game that never would've seen the light of day if the developer had stuck to safe and familiar games.

You know why publishers think people want shooters, because people buy millions of them every year. One bad shooter (which sold 250,000 copies in the USA) doesn't change this.

Regarding female character given that in other media such as TV, movies, and comics people like attractive female characters it's highly likely that the same is true for games. So they are catering to market demand. The fact that you don't like this doesn't make it wrong.

No, people buy Call of Duty and Halo every year and people try to make Call of Duty and Halo to earn money from Call of Duty and Halo fans. And that is a very dumb idea. Also it's not just Declassified, Medal of Honor Warfighter bombed royally, Crysis 3 didn't do that well, and plenty of other shooters just aren't doing that well because instead of trying to do their own thing they're chasing the Call of Duty dollar. It's homogenization, pure and simple, and it isn't necessarily a good thing.

I'm pretty sure it's pandering there too, and I've met more than a few men and women who are fans of the subject matter but are royally annoyed by this stuff. The fact that you do like it doesn't make it right. Not to mention you really aren't making an argument for it being ok, you're just making the argument that's it's popular. Since when did something being popular dismiss all criticism? Call of Duty is popular but this website never hesitates to collectively rip it apart, how come issues like this get special attention?

 

[Twinmill5000]

Dammit Jim! I don't want to make a game that rights all the wrongs and has strong, beautiful, and strong, ugly females that exist to be more than fap fodder and, at their most terrifying, are downright bonerkilling. But for you, I'll create a quick walkaround in UDK with basic, half assed models and then never pick it up again, because I care.

 

[LightningFast]

You know, like it or not, this is a problem with the industry: certain demographics are underrepresented. Granted, things are improving marginally, but I'm a clinical optimist. I'm surprised Jim glossed over the Walking Dead: the women (and men) in that game show visible signs of age and stress, and not all of them are conventionally "attractive". Furthermore, they're all reasonably capable and even play the villain on certain occasions.

Of course, if we're looking for other original ideas, how about a game about an aging Cold War spy attempting to live out her last days peacefully alongside her senile, Vietnam veteran husband getting a last call to action?

 

[Dragonbums]

You know, like it or not, this is a problem with the industry: certain demographics are underrepresented. Granted, things are improving marginally, but I'm a clinical optimist. I'm surprised Jim glossed over the Walking Dead: the women (and men) in that game show visible signs of age and stress, and not all of them are conventionally "attractive". Furthermore, they're all reasonably capable and even play the villain on certain occasions.

Of course, if we're looking for other original ideas, how about a game about an aging Cold War spy attempting to live out her last days peacefully alongside her senile, Vietnam veteran husband getting a last call to action?

That's sounds really good...and I have a feeling it will have a heart wrenching depressing end.

 

[Tombsite]

First of all you did not say ugly (and this is actually just about non-attractive women) but diverse.
And as to my source, well let's just go with quite a few of Jim's videos, Extra credits and Anita Sarkeesian (Plus all the people supporting them in the comment section).

Should indicate that quite a few people would like more diversity.

Now how about your sources? I've showed you mine

So your evidence that people want diversity is a few videos on the Internet and the few people who agree with them. If so many people want diversity then why is it that focus groups don't ask for more diversity, why is it that games with diversity aren't more popular than less diverse games, why is it than games lacking diversity are so popular? Could it be because only a very small minority of people want more diversity, which would explain why so few people are asking for more diversity?

You've also ignores that several commentators on Jim's videos have pointed out why Jim's diversity ideas are flawed (people don't want to play as ugly women).

Again I feel like your post is lacking a few sources. I am therefore guessing you're going by "common knowledge" or "common wisdom" both nebulous concepts that have been proven wrong again and again. See the "death of space flightsims" vs Starcitizen, "Need good graphics to sell" vs Minecraft and "turned based squad action is dead" vs the new X-com. Then again my "few videos" are not exactly hard science either.

But to answer your complaints.

Seeing as there are no academic studies I guess both of us have to go with logic.

Focus groups are a notoriously unreliable way of getting insight into consumer preferences. Look up Jim black coffee episode for plenty of arguments against them. Also if you insist I will happily dig up the news post about there not being any women in the focus group for "the last of us" until the studio demanded it. If you do not have a diverse focus group don't expect divers tastes.

Are games with a "divers" (as in not white strait male, or attractive white woman) protagonist less popular? How do we know this? It is really hard to prove causality in games. The games that sell really well are usually AAA big budget titles, yet most of the AAA big budget titles have white males, attractive females or player designed protagonists. So is it only these protagonists that sell or do we just not have any data. Yes the less diverse games sell well, but that is also the games with the huge marketing budget, and the famous studios behind them. It makes for an excellent self-fulfilling prophecy.

People buy games with more than one parameter in mind. If I like FPS games then I have to tolerate the lack of diversity in protagonists because I have no other choice. Something I might very well be willing to do but that does not mean I like it.


But with so little data lets look to a similar market; movies. The big summer blockbusters are a good substitute for gamings AAA games. Huge sales and very little diversification among its protagonists. Still does not mean that there is not a market for films with more "diverse" protagonists. Hell Tylor Perry makes tons of money being one of the few guys making "black movies" despite them being awful for the most part. While the blockbusters makes the most pr film Hollywood earns more on the "diverse" films all together.

And that is really what it all comes down to. What people asking for diversity are trying to do is to prove that there is a marked where a more diverse game cold make a profit. Again I would like you to look up another Jim video; "Perfect pasta sources". A publisher willing to make a game with a more "diverse" protagonist could very well end up making a lot of sales by tapping an undeserved market.

And finally try and count Jim's supporters and detractors. You'll probably find more of the former but the later have more posts.


Well the ball is in your court. Please don't give up now just because I am asking you to use logic

 

[Psychobabble]

Oh bugger. So Jim you finally manage to dig your way out of the malodorous cesspit that is gender politics in gaming for a couple of episodes but then decide to dive right back in. And drag the rest of us down into the slime with you I might add!

So instead of something fresh like season passes, neo-luddite disco-biscuits, top 10 reasons why GTA V actually sucks ass, or something about Valve throwing it's hat into the console gaming ring, we get this.

A short and to the point, rather logical and entertaining, even amusing, look at true gender disparity in gaming via aesthetics. HOW DARE YOU SIR!!

All I've got to say after watching this drivel is ****k you! ****k you! ****k you! ****K YOU! JIM STERLING!

Oh wait, we're all adults here. Why am I censoring myself?

Of course what I was saying was thank you! thank you! thank you! THANK YOU! JIM STERLING!

 

[Zeles]

There's an indie game on the PC called The Cat Lady by Harvester Games with a female protagonist that pretty much qualifies. She's not exactly a strong female character as she's suicidal and borderline insane but she's a unique character with great motivation.
Seriously it's a great game and it's been green-lit on Steam.

I watched a playthrough of that! It was awesome!

 

[Erttheking]

I really don't see how this is a bad thing. It's basically the Bechdel Test. Not passing it isn't a bad thing. The sheer number of things that don't pass it is.

And as I've made clear in that earlier post, the Bechdel Test is also worthless, counterproductive bullshit.

I really don't understand how people can say "the Becdel test doesn't measure much at all", then get all uppity and upset that so many things don't pass it. Why even bother acknowledge it at all if the SUPPORTERS OF THE TEST THEMSELVES are aware of how arbitrary it is? You're just pulling hairs and nitpicking for no particularly good reason at that point when there are plenty other things to judge merit/quality. Other than...than...if you're The Chart Says guys [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsNrwHA6Big], I suppose this all makes sense to you.

Can we not look at media from a market executive's POV anymore and go back to looking at it from an audience perspective? Ya know, those olden days where we used to care about solid storytelling rather than all these politics?

What? In this hyperbolic Internet age where everyone wants to be a lobbyist rather than a consumer, that's too much to ask for?

It isn't a big deal on a small scale. On a large scale it is a very big deal. Like I said, it's like eating chocolate ice cream. The act in of itself is ok. When you do nothing else its a bit of a problem. It's not exactly a hypocritical concept.

Actually having more than one token female character and have the two talk about something else other than men? How is that arbitrary? In fact, let's do the opposite. Point out all the movies where there aren't at least two men who never talk to each other about anything other than woman. You will find that the list will be significant;y shorter. That's the problem, compared to male representation in movies and other media, women are sorely lacking.

Chart says?...what?... First of all I never said anything about charts or statistics, second, wasn't one of the main arguments against female characters in games was that they don't sell and that men want to play as men?

I do care about solid story telling. And there's something I noticed about all these games with bland predictable characters. 90% of their stories are shit. Meanwhile games like Fallout NV have a massive cast of characters from all different backgrounds, gender and races are freaking awesome. So yeah.

People criticize the things that they care about. That is the way things are. That is the way things will always be. Not to mention I fail to see how this is a bad thing. And people are not lobbyists. This isn't political. I don't want developers to reflect my political views. I want them to get off of their fat asses and stop selling me the same bland shit they've been selling me for years now.

 

[wulf3n]

I don't want developers to reflect my political views. I want them to get off of their fat asses and stop selling me the same bland shit they've been selling me for years now.

That's the spirit, insult those that you want to make things for you, because that will convince them to go out of their way to please you