Jimquisition: Vertigo

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Amaury_games

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Have anyone mentioned the Lookout from the game Monaco as a possibility? She's playable and have her own reasons to steal stuff, along with a pretty nice ability! As for her looks, with the game's style choice, I can't really say what she looks like. However, we can, for example, assume the Red Head is very attractive, since her ability is to seduce anything (including dogs!). As far as I could distinguish from the silhouette of the Lookout, she seems very average, but not particularly being attractive (although, of course, I find it safe to assume that for most of the heterosexual guys, and homosexual girls, and whatever else might find the feminine figure attractive, the Lookout will be more attractive than a reptile goddess).
 

Velocir_X

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To be honest I haven't been paying attention to the discussion, but I had an interesting thought that may be pertinent.

Samus was quickly discounted because she's conventionally attractive. For the sake of argument allow me to challenge that for a second.

If you were to ask a stereotypically "sexist" gamer/developer/industry worker to describe Samus, how would they go about it? Something related to her badassery don't you think? Maybe a quip or two about how terrible Other M was?

By contrast if you were to ask someone arguing for the evil sexism in the industry to do the same, what would they talk about? Probably her looks?

You can repeat this though experiment with a number of female protagonists, hell I think even Laura Craft may work, though you probably won't escape a mention or two of her titties. MMmm dem titties.

And that I think is pretty telling. My point being that this whole discussion suffers from a bit of pop-culture criticism hysterics. For men (the primary demographic of gamers) who are visual, the good-looks of a female are simply an aesthetic thing devoid of connection to the most memorable or important traits of a character. No one remembers Samus for how traditionally attractive she is much in the same way no one remembers, say, the Mona Lisa for how traditionally attractive she is, instead focusing on something intangible like her achievements or in the case of the Mona Lisa her smile.

It's like calling a Greek temple "rectangleist" or mathematicist" for extensively using the golden ration for aesthetic purposes, while completely ignoring the fact that its primary purpose, and what its remembered for, is the god it serves. Then shaming the designers for not incorporating enough triangles, ugly rectangles or ugly triangles. Trivial. A critique of style instead of substance.

I can enjoy Lara's titties for being an attractive pair of titties without "objectifying" her or necessarily dismissing her achievements or general level of awesomeness. In fact I think the most recent tomb raider, which was oh so highly praised for making her more "realistic" or "down to earth" actually made her a much less interesting and capable female character. It was praised for what it did to her looks and not to her character, which I think is ass-backwards coming from the people arguing against sexism.

P.S. No sexism in games thread would be complete without a repost of Thunderfoot:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQJW3WMsx1q3BAZh3XsK1cSwCiaqjSulc
 

LazyAza

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I think it's kinda funny (not in a haha kinda way) all the best examples people can think of when it comes to female characters of the like of Vertigo basically none of them are fucking human, or even close to humanoid. That's where its so fucked, even when these female characters exist they have to be more animalistic, cartoony or creature-like to be allowed to exist apparently.

I remember playing Gears of War 3 and upon seeing the female characters, long touted by head designer Cliffy B as being progressive and a long overdue addition to their franchise and them with their fucking perfect shiny hair, almost perfect skin and generally slim appearances I wanted to personally smack the man upside the head when every god damn fucking male character in those games is grizzled, ugly and generally a walking pile of meat.

What we need is someome to make a game with a large, muscular, empowered women who does what she does because she fucking wants to. Make her evil or anti-heroish too and that'd be icying on the cake. Why on earth don't we have a female equivalent of Kratos, that'd be god damn awesome.
 

carnex

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As usual, just another sensation bait from Jim. Not that anything he said is lie, outside that there are human form females that fit that picture in fighting game genre. But on another hand I understand that he made a pick to ilustrate his point.

On the other hand, he is carefull never to touch upon causes of that trend which is much, much more important thing to discuss. If we don't get to source, changing it will be impossible. So, lets start on that notion

- Someone said that females are considered desirable unless they are really fat or disfigured or both. While I agree with that, I will state the following too. Males are found desirable even if they are muscled freaks, scared, older, sadist, psychopath etc. Not by everyone but, for example, I have read quite a bit from females that find Kratos and Marcus Phoenix just peachy. When we play as character, for most part, we want to play character we would to be, character that has some traits we would like to have or character that is just embodies our animalistic and anti-social desires we suppress.

- Developers are afraid of backlash and lost sales. Seriously, most of them try to do tightrope walk down the narrow path that they see as something that will not piss off either side too much. If they perceive something as thing that will affect sales negatively they will not do it.

- We perceive thigs differently. Male character in loincloth is power fantasy, female character in valkyrie armor (armored bikini) is objectification. Male character saving female is DiD, female character rescuing male is dependent or has daddy issues etc.

- We associate sexualization of female charaters with male creators while females create same charates all the time. And in same scenarios. That means causes are much, much deeper then gender tendencies. Most importan question is how much of that is biological and how much social (social in terms of flying in face of biological benefits)

There are many, many more but form the top of my head this late at night I can't get to mentioning them. I would appriciate if someone would pick up the torch.
 

Innegativeion

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Daystar Clarion said:
Well she's Ammy!
Yeah no, Amaterasu is definitely a better example. I haven't played the game yet (I'll get around to it! I promise) but as far as I can tell, she's just in general defending nature and kicking the ass of anyone who tries to fuck around with it.

I'm sure there are more examples than Ammy and the dinosaur too, but Jim's point still stands.
 

Don Incognito

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uanime5 said:
Aardvaarkman said:
One of the more baffling things (among many) about your argument is that you don't seem to understand that different women like different things. You talk about them as if they're some kind of hive mind who all have the same tastes. The same applies for men, too, of course. It's a pretty simple concept to grasp - different people have different preferences.
Care to explain why so many women want to be a princess and so few want to be Rambo. Could it be because the vast majority of women do have similar tastes? That would explain why chick-flicks appeal mainly to women, while action movies don't.
I'll say it again:

CITATION.

NEEDED.
 

chozo_hybrid

What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets.
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Dragonbums said:
There is one Gears of War female playable character that comes to mind here in regards to you asking where the old grey haired ones are:

Bernadette is based off a New Zealander who is racially mixed (half Maori, half Caucasian) so she's got a bit of uniqueness there as well.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall point, I'm just saying Gears of War has a 50+ years old lady who's kicking ass with the rest of them.
 

Laurie Barnes

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Mcoffey said:
Daystar Clarion said:




I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!
The Boss isn't a playable character nor a protagonist. She's a great character, to be sure, but not quite what Jim's talking about. I've got nothing on Amaterasu though. :)

In this thread I expect plenty of people to say that plenty of male characters are sexualized, completely ignoring the fact that they are male empowerment fantasies ( something to aspire to, rather than something to desire), where few-to-no female characters are female empowerment fantasies.
I think that bit about most games being a male empowerment fantasy might be the root problem here actually. I just thought about all the games that I love, and a fair majority of them are in fact male empowerment fantasies. So that makes me wonder, what would a female empowerment fantasy look like? Do any even exist?

I'm not saying making a few games that are focus tested for women the same way COD is for men is the answer, or not inherently sexist, but I must admit curiosity for what the result might be.

Perhaps the Mighty and Benevolent Jim Sterling can field this one after he is done with Season Passes.
 

spiffleh

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Well said. Boy oh boy though Jim. You sure do know how to make people rage. You must bust out a bowl of popcorn and read the comments while laughing maniacally. I'm sad they do rage though. Such a valid point.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Ukomba said:
canadamus_prime said:
Ukomba said:
canadamus_prime said:
Ukomba said:
Pat Hulse said:
Ukomba said:
Hmm, well here's a list of characters I think meet that criteria:

Amazon in Dragon's Crown.
Lucca from Chrono Trigger.
Okami from Okami.
Peacock from skull girls.
Double from skull girls.
Macha from Chrono Cross.
NeoFio from Chrono Cross.
Poshul from Chrono Cross.
Sprigg from Chrono Cross.
Shale from Dragon Age.
Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic 2.
Bombette from Paper Mario.
Lady Bow from Paper Mario.
Watt from Paper Mario.
Sushie from Paper Mario.
Goombella from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Flurrie from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
Vivian from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Ms. Mowz from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Toadette from Mario Kart.
Birdo from Mario Kart.
Baby Daisy from Mario Kart.

That's just what I could come up with off the top of my head from games I've played.
Amazon - Sexualized, impractical outfit. While not "traditionally" attractive from a mainstream attraction, she definitely fits within fetishistic character design tropes popular in certain niches within Japanese entertainment. She may not be everyone's cup of tea, but trust me, she's designed for sex appeal. Plus none of the characters in that game have interesting or unique character motivations or identities, so even if you could argue that she isn't designed with sex appeal in mind, she fails to meet Jim's criteria for that reason as well (though at least the male characters in the game are equally as uninteresting and under-developed).
Lucca - A supporting character, not a protagonist. Jim was specifically looking for playable protagonists.
Okami - The character is actually named Amaterasu, but I'd say that's probably a fair example that Jim may have overlooked.
Peacock - Her motivations center around being used as a test subject, which Jim would justifiably qualify as "power from trauma".
Double - See above.
Macha/NeoFio/Poshul/Sprigg - Not protagonists.
Shale - A DLC character and not a protagonist.
Kreia - Not a protagonist.

One example I thought of that Jim may have overlooked is Kazooie from Banjo-Kazooie, who could be argued as a supporting character, but I'd argue that she's the more active participant in the duo, particular in regards to gameplay, though obviously she has less at stake in terms of plot since it's not her sister that's been kidnapped. But it does seem a bit silly that we have to keep looking at non-humanoids to find valid examples.

And it may seem like splitting hairs for discounting many of your characters for not being protagonists, but part of the issue is that women would like to be able to directly identify with the character they has the most agency and direct focus within the story. They may like to see well-crafted female supporting characters, but when it's all they have, it starts to make them feel ignored, marginalized, and underestimated. It seems like there's an underlying hesitance to make a woman the central protagonist either due to concerns regarding whether or not their young male demographic would enjoy playing as a female character they don't find attractive, as though we would be afraid of identifying with a woman. As a dude, I find that assumption pretty demeaning. I don't need to find a female character sexy to want to play as her and I don't need to play as a male character to identify with the protagonist. I think game publishers need to stop overthinking it so much.
For starters, look up the definition of 'protagonist'. Here let me help:

protagonist: the leading character or one of the major characters in a drama, movie, novel, or other fictional text.

So Kreia, Macha, NeoFio, Poshul, Sprigg, Lucca, and Shale are, in fact, Protagonists. Any Party member would be. Even non playable characters, like Joker from Mass Effect, would count as a Protagonist. Lucca especially, since Chrono dies half way through the game. Is there just no Protagonist at that point?

A character being DLC is entirely irrelevant.

The Trauma thing, well you might have me for those two.
Ok, but Lucca is still pretty conventionally attractive, I mean except for the big-ass glasses and the goofy helmet she's still got the whole smooth skin, slender body thing going on.
I thought she was cute, but not exactly conventionally attractive since she's, eeeeeew, NERDY. If Old Snake is considered not conventionally attractive then so is Lucca. I know plenty of girls who think the grizzled, or older men are quite attractive. Harrison Ford won People's Sexiest Man Alive at 56 after all.
Yes, but she's still got the whole smooth skin, slender body thing. I think Jim's point was that you don't see any female protagonists that look like the amazons from Futurama. A better example you could've brought up from Chrono Trigger would've been Ayla.
I guess it all depends on your definition. It's that 'Not Another Teen Movie' thing where the unattractive nerdy girl just needs a quick makeover to make her attractive. Her in game sprite isn't designed to make her look attractive, unlike Marles. Ayla is a little more on the line so I left her off.
Well that brings up another topic altogether that's been bugging me, but I won't get into it. Anyway I still don't think Lucca quite fits the criteria Jim was looking for. Also I may have been a bit hasty in naming Ayla. So I take that back.
RJ 17 said:
canadamus_prime said:
Yes, but she's still got the whole smooth skin, slender body thing. I think Jim's point was that you don't see any female protagonists that look like the amazons from Futurama. A better example you could've brought up from Chrono Trigger would've been Ayla.
Are you kidding? Ayla? Ayla is probably the sexiest-designed character in that entire game. Blonde hair, curvaceous figure, and she wears an animal-fur bikini. Not to mention how "bouncy" her animations are.

The Amazons from Futurama, for that matter, weren't universally ugly. Most of them were as attractive as any other Futurama female, they just happened to be 15 feet tall. That's why Zap and Fry are both thrilled and terrified when their sentence comes down as "DEATH BY SNOO-SNOO!!!!" :p
Yeah, I realized my mistake almost immediatly after I posted that, but I had to go to work so I couldn't correct myself. I forgot that it's only in fanart that she's made to look more like a buff amazon.
Anyway as for the Futurama Amazons, no they weren't universally ugly... I guess, but none of them were exactly Maxim magazine material either. And I think Fry and Zapp's reaction to their sentence had more to do with getting Snoo-Snoo and dieing than it did the attractiveness of the Amazons.
 

The Material Sheep

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I was thinking GLADOS... for a lot of this. Perhaps the the disembodied voice of sexless machine doesn't count but I thought most people viewed her as a female character.
 

Quadocky

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Laurie Barnes said:
Mcoffey said:
Daystar Clarion said:




I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!
The Boss isn't a playable character nor a protagonist. She's a great character, to be sure, but not quite what Jim's talking about. I've got nothing on Amaterasu though. :)

In this thread I expect plenty of people to say that plenty of male characters are sexualized, completely ignoring the fact that they are male empowerment fantasies ( something to aspire to, rather than something to desire), where few-to-no female characters are female empowerment fantasies.
I think that bit about most games being a male empowerment fantasy might be the root problem here actually. I just thought about all the games that I love, and a fair majority of them are in fact male empowerment fantasies. So that makes me wonder, what would a female empowerment fantasy look like? Do any even exist?

I'm not saying making a few games that are focus tested for women the same way COD is for men is the answer, or not inherently sexist, but I must admit curiosity for what the result might be.

Perhaps the Mighty and Benevolent Jim Sterling can field this one after he is done with Season Passes.
Going by what my sister's preferences are, good 'Female empowerment fantasies' are essentially the same as 'male' ones. They essentially amount to cool characters who are strong enough to cause a measurable amount of change in the world/narrative/whathaveyou in which they exist.
 

Flunk

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Tera from Final Fantasy 6 / 3. Yes I realize that game is just as old and yes I realize that it's possible that she's very attractive, but the graphics aren't good enough to make it out.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Nurb said:
The husbands are also dumb, often dumber than their children. It's considered anti-woman to portray women as a fat, dumb wife in a marriage on TV. She always has to be the smart one that can insult or hit her husband when the script calls for it.
Often, but the flip-side is that many of the women are dumb in bimbo-ish ways, and when they are "smart" it tends to be more "street smart" or "emotionally smart" or whatever you want to call it. The husbands are often portrayed as intellectually smart - they're doctors, or nerds or whatever, but are bumbling when it comes to "common sense" or "understanding women" etc. Consider The Big Bang Theory, for example, or The Cosby Show, and of course the classic example - Married With Children, which is interesting because it both parodies the stereotype while also playing the stereotype directly.

Speaking of TV references (but on another topic) - Focus Groups. The Simpsons has parodied this brilliantly, as has The Daily Show. Both parodies match my experience with focus groups - most of them are terribly designed, and are only looking for the answers the company wants, not real feedback. The same is true of many "customer satisfaction" and other product surveys, where you are left unable to express how you actually feel about a product, and only have a narrow range of responses that often aren't even applicable to my experience of the product.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/wZzY3PVvLj4

http://www.youtube.com/embed/IyI-eI5iJSM
 

maximara

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The one issue I have always had with this topic is that video games, like all other visual media, are catering to the values society itself promotes. Aren't these medias merely mirrors that show what we value in men and women in society?

How many anti-hero females are there in movies and comics that don't look like pin up girls or supermodels? In fact, how many females in movies and comics would be excluded by Jim's criteria?

And that is the problem--video games are merely a reflection on societal views.
 

n00beffect

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HA! Hilariously-sad and vice-versa... I agree with this vid, it's absolutely redonkulous, but I believe there may be a simple explanation behind it all (and by the way, moral crusaders, notice how I say explanation and not excuse, mmmm'kay?):

Gaming has been around now for yonks - true. However, mainstream gaming hasn't. Gaming, as you remember, used to be a sub-culture in and of its own, and gamers (male or female) were never actually considered to even exist in (and by) the mainstream ethos, other then when they were called upon to take the role of a murderous maniac of some sort, who used to play contra and then killed a whole school of kids, or whatever. So, in a way, 10 years ago (if we are to be generous) somewhat marked the 'official birth' of gaming into mainstream culture, and people actually started paying attention to it, but we'll get back to that later, as my *genius* theory unfolds.

Now, I may be wrong about this, but if I am in fact right in assuming that gaming, before it became mainstream, used to be mostly dominated by men (or at least, openly; men [or rather, boys] at the time were less reluctant to showcase their interest in games), then, following the steps of logic and mathematical statistics, that would indicate that alpha-males among our majority of bullied and secluded-from-society, hermit-like gamers are in fact the developers and designers of the games of today. So, logically, the games that do come out today, with their 'complex' stories and what-not, are expected to have self-aggrandizing, author-surrogate, ultra-masculine characters; while, in contrast to that very, very few good female characters. It makes sense, when you put it into context: games created by shunned, awkward, isolated hacker-like teens of the 80s and 90s, in whose paradigm girls rarely existed, are meant to have what? Bullshit male protagonists, of course - it makes sense; and, subsequently lacking, over-sexualized, two-dimensional cardboard-cutout female protagonists.

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not defending the industry here with its bullshit practices, nor am I aiming to offend any gamers from that time period (I myself am a 90s kid). I'm not trying to excuse anything, I'm just trying to explain it, and frankly, this explanation is the only one that makes sense to me; this is the only explanation that can account for the ridiculous behaviour - both direct and indirect - we see from our beloved developers, time and again: when they release games that frankly insult the very concept of the female sex, or when they come out with absurd claims that if they happen to make their protagonists female, that would damage their sales and piss-off their 'main demographic', it speaks of a certain mentality which, unless put into some (albeit grossly over-generalized and over-simplified) context, makes no bloody, f*cking sense, what-so-ever, and seems as though can belong only to a bad James Bond villain.

The developers, designers, and overall heads of gaming projects today, are in fact kids - because that's the way they brought themselves up - here I shall invoke the bullshit phrase: 'The stereotype exists for a reason', and judging by their actions and by their products, it most certainly does exist, if anything.

There is another reason why I brought up mainstream gaming to begin with, and that is because I often hear people compare gaming to film, i.e.: 'Oh, look at film! Look how much better they treat their protagonists/ and/or have better story arcs/ and/or are far more sophisticated regarding sexual, religious, whatever ideologies./ and/or is far more respected' - and yes, those are all valid points, however to tie this to the topic: Film is more respected and developed as an art form, because film was always mainstream. Film was always handled by people far more astute than our "elite" in gaming. Film, unlike gaming, was never obscure or just a geeky sub-culture. And, while it's true that there was a time when Hollywood portrayed women as empty vessels and mere male-inspired love interests; and, taking into account that Hollywood was, in fact, *slightly* late in catching onto relevant female's rights movements, etc., film always had to seem respectable, because film dealt with many issues, such as the MPAA (the Hayes Act, etc.) and film's development couldn't possibly be compared to gaming, because film had to progress far quicker than gaming, and always aimed to do so, while gaming didn't. So, what is my point in all this? It goes thus: What we are doing right now, the fact that there are people out there, like Jim Sterling, who point out our mistakes and follies as a culture, is good, and hopefully, all we need as a culture that aims to be seen as not-backward, is time. The developers/designers/heads and CEO's of today's industry will in fact step down at one point, and we can all at least hope that the next generation of game development will be a far better, more-inclusive and respected era, than the one we are living in right now.

However, that being said, my other, slightly darker point is: What we see today, the games that come out, and all the silliness - it is to be fully expected. Not excused, but expected. We are the by-products of our volition, and ultimately, ourselves - there is little we can do to teach an old dog new, more politically-correct tricks...

Side note: In this little exposé/mini-thesis of mine, I only address Western gaming culture, and I don't really address my remarks to our Eastern friends, since I am even more poorly versed in their development, as of now.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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uanime5 said:
Care to explain why so many women want to be a princess and so few want to be Rambo. Could it be because the vast majority of women do have similar tastes? That would explain why chick-flicks appeal mainly to women, while action movies don't.
I haven't noticed this. Most women I know don't want to be either. Great false dichotomy/strawman, though.

I assume you have links to the studies on this topic, given how frequently you bring the idea of such evidence up?
 

I.Muir

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We seriously don't even have the evil housewife villain in video games? I mean if they are not taking advantage of the existing accepted story lines then... what the hell. For some reason I doubt that there is any lack of imaginative plot lines out there but rather it's still the heads of publishing from Walt Disney's era that don't like the idea of doing anything risky in order to rake in their paycheck.

What video games need first and foremost isn't to pander to anybody in particular but to have a little bloody variety. That if they find a niche that they realize they should stick to it and not continuously trying to attract call of duty twelvies who are possibly the worst fan base in existence.
 

Mrkillhappy

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Yeah final some love for Primal Rage.

OT: It is a sad statement that the only female protagonist that falls outside of the stereotype isn't even human though to be fair a giant serpent monster is possibly the coolest character design ever.
 

Black Reaper

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If Justice from Guilty Gear(the first one) could count as a protagonist, she would probably fit the bill
Most people think Justice is male because of that codpiece and some bad translating, it's like a reverse Bridget

And Justice is actually a deeper character than she appears at first sight, as you can see from Ky's ending

I also wonder where Saya from Saya no Uta would fall, while her main motivations are finding her father and living a happy life with Fuminori, she also wants to do that thing she did in the true ending(in the one where Ryoko narrates the epilogue)
And what of her appearance?, would the way she looks like in Fuminri's mind count?, or the way she actually looks?