Jimquisition: Vertigo

[Thanatos2k]

I don't think Lucca's the example you guys are looking for either, since she is conventionally attractive when she takes off the helmet and changes clothes. You can see her normal appearance in a bunch of the art.

Plus her motivations are indeed driven by personal trauma, given the backstory you uncover regarding her mother....

 

[Erttheking]

If looks doesnt matter, why cant women be "attractive" so to speak?
Why is the concept of Saints Row and other types of games such as MMOs completely discarded because theyre our creation not the developers?
Can then only good female characters exist if they're created by the developer and not the player?

They can, Jim doesn't have a problem with that. The problem is that apparently they can't be anything else than attractive. That is a problem.

Thats up for debate however and not an objective fact, especially if you just consider that to be the one part that matters to a player, regardless if its being marketed to you as such. Its a woman, shes attractive.
I like to compare this debate to the new steam controller rage:

oh my god look how bad this controller looks it must be shit.

While im thinking instead: I wonder what it feels like to use it for play though since i will use my controller for a game and not to look at.

Look you can split hairs as much as you want, but it's pretty hard to deny that a massive majority of female characters are designed with the intention of people trying to make them look good in mind. And a good looking character isn't a bad thing, a lot of people really like Mitsuru from Persona 3 and she's hardly lacking, but good looking for female is become ing what "White, brown haired thirty something" is for male. There is nothing wrong with a character like that but the sheer number of them is ridiculous and something ELSE would be nice.

Not really. People want attractive female characters, so the market gives it to them. If you don't want them then you are stuck either waiting for a game to fit your views or making one. Otherwise you're dealing with what the market wants the market gets.

You know I always found the "What the market wants" argument to be really flimsy. According to 2K, the market wanted shooters and that strategy games were dead. A few years later, X-COM Enemy Unknown is loved and X-COM declassified is hated. The market operates on stereotypes. And a question. How can the market know that gamers only want attractive female characters if they barely release anything outside of their comfort zone. Because that's what this is. It isn't catering to market demands, it's a comfort zone. I'm pretty sure no one said they wanted a bureaucracy simulator, but I imagine plenty of people are very happy papers please got made, a game that never would've seen the light of day if the developer had stuck to safe and familiar games.

 

[Lightknight]

What about Claire from Thomas Was Alone? She's a big blue square, hardly "conventionally attractive".

That kind of fits almost perfectly with Jim's point - you have to look for things like lizards, rats, aliens, and geometric objects to find "female" characters that are outside the norm. If you look at more humanoid characters, the numbers go way down. I'm sure there are people out there who get aroused by quadrilaterals, but it's the exception that proves the rule.

But that's true of male characters too. The vast majority are handsome or every guy's dream of being a muscled pile of destruction. Plain individuals are rare on both front just like in other media like movies.

The question is who Jim considers attractive. Mortal kombat had a few uglies. Ever looked under the mouth cover on that one princess? Sheeva may have breasts but... ugly.

Who are the noteable male uglies?

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Women who play games. No one is going to make a game for women unless there's a market for it.

That's a very backwards business model. Some of the most successful companies have been those who create new markets, or cater to untapped ones.

As Henry Ford said, ?If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." but instead of selling horses, he created an automobile market. Or consider the iPhone - when it was announced, it was almost universally derided for not having a physical keyboard - who would buy a phone that used a touch-screen and virtual keyboard? And yet today, the majority of phones follow the iPhone's touchscreen model and Apple became one of the world's most powerful companies. Similarly, there was no market for computers, before computers existed. And when the early computers were created, they were restricted to number-crunching by large companies and the military, etc. It wasn't until the idea of the user-friendly home computer was envisioned, that the market developed. And those companies stuck in the old thinking of the mainframe computer went they way of the dodo.

Think of a business that sells shit sandwiches, but is not forward-thinking. They would say "all our customers buy shit sandwiches, so why should we make a sandwich with nice ingredients?" All the time missing the point that they are not getting more customers, because of all the people who decide they don't want shit sandwiches and go elsewhere looking for alternatives.

Markets don't exist in a vacuum. They are generally created by innovation.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

Well, market demands do need to be considered, but the problem is that most focus groups don't exactly focus on potential customers who'll have the good sense to say something along the lines of "You know, I'd like a female character who isn't traditionally pretty, who doesn't need to rely on a masculine authority and who isn't being put through the wringer to generate pathos".

Shooters are as shooters do, and the focus groups for this type of game tend to contain shooter fans. They'll focus on the gameplay first, and when asked about character potentials, their age range might drive them to focus on hot chicks. Most of us wouldn't have minded a female protagonist in GTA V, for instance, but I'm fairly certain the focus groups didn't even once question the concept of the three leads being male.

Three objectionable characters doing despicable shit? Can't be female, they just can't be. It's part of the Western social doctrine: men are jerks and saints, and women are supposed to be saints, pure and simple.

We can harp about the games industry's lack of ambition or general sense of daring, but the fact is society is generally afraid of things that rock the boat. It's silly and unfounded, but a lot of guys *might* have rejected the potential BioShock Infinite covers in their Sans Booker form.

"Dude, what's this game with the Victorian Disney chick? You turning into a ****** or something?"

Of course, nobody would react like this upon seeing the Elizabeth-only covers. The sad truth is that some guys are still really insecure, sometimes well into adulthood.

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

Peacock from skull girls.

Fits perfectly. Hooray for murderous cartoons.

Double from skull girls.

This may or may not count, depending on what Jim meant by "doing it for a man." Could easily be a deconstruction of this motivation, since she really, REALLY hates being mind @#$^ed into doing what Brain Drain wants.

You just described Pain Wheel.

Double seeks only to find a 'suitable' candidate for the Skull Heart, and by suitable I mean some one who is perfectly fine with killing every one, to which Marie is to busy trying to wipe out the mob to do.

X_X

My bad.

Yeah, the elderich, twisted horror of Double fits perfectly.

 

[Erttheking]

What about Claire from Thomas Was Alone? She's a big blue square, hardly "conventionally attractive".

That kind of fits almost perfectly with Jim's point - you have to look for things like lizards, rats, aliens, and geometric objects to find "female" characters that are outside the norm. If you look at more humanoid characters, the numbers go way down. I'm sure there are people out there who get aroused by quadrilaterals, but it's the exception that proves the rule.

But that's true of male characters too. The vast majority are handsome or every guy's dream of being a muscled pile of destruction. Plain individuals are rare on both front just like in other media like movies.

The question is who Jim considers attractive. Mortal kombat had a few uglies. Ever looked under the mouth cover on that one princess? Sheeva may have breasts but... ugly.

Who are the noteable male uglies?

Marcus Fenix, Kane and Lynch, Kratos, Geralt of Rivia, Tevor, the Bionic Commando from said game, Monkey from Enslaved, Grayson Hunt from Bulletstorm, Snake once MGS4 rolls around, John Marston has a certain rugged look to him, and Krieg from Borderlands 2.

I'm sorry, but guys seem to get to be more ugly than girls.

 

[bigfatcarp93]

Wynne?

Mind you, I haven't played DA2, so if there's something there that disqualifies her, I wouldn't know.

 

[wulf3n]

Marcus Fenix, Kane and Lynch, Kratos, Geralt of Rivia, Tevor, the Bionic Commando from said game, Monkey from Enslaved, Grayson Hunt from Bulletstorm, Snake once MGS4 rolls around, John Marston has a certain rugged look to him, and Krieg from Borderlands 2.

I'm sorry, but guys seem to get to be more ugly than girls.

I wouldn't really consider any of them "ugly", at least not from a physical perspective.

The problem I see here is that "Traditionally Attractive" is such a generic term that has a different meaning to everyone.

 

[Toadfish1]

Mileena

http://gameplot.net/img/2013/09/mileena-mortal-kombat-teeth-full-hd-yi6vugja.png

Those teeth will give you nightmares.

 

[Something Amyss]

While admittedly I skimmed through a bit I'm a little annoyed at the ADD in this thread.

I don't think it's ADHD. I'm pretty sure it's dismissiveness. Frankly, people don't seem to like Jim's point so they're shifting the goal posts in order to fire off a counter argument.

Then again, I sometimes wonder if people are even watching/reading/listening to the stuff they're complaining about. I'm starting to doubt it.

That's a very backwards business model.

It is, however, gaming's model. And ironically, we do have execs who wonder why women don't game more.

Who are the noteable male uglies?

Aside from the ones Jim mentioned, or...?

---I---

I can't comment on all of these....

2) Fucking Chun Li, who is DEFINITELY far from general sex-appeal damsel state.

Jim didn't say "Damsel state." Isn't Chun Li motivated by the death of her father? Besides most depictions of her I've seen would paint her as "traditionally attractive." That seems to be two.

4) Faith from Mirror's Edge, who can be considered attractive by some, but faaaar from being sexy doll

But, again, that wasn't the criteria.

7) And Chell from Portal? Again, she can be considered attractive at best and the only man in her life was Companion Cube.

so she can be considered attractive and therefore fails the test as defined.

11) Thomas Was Alone? Square girls, anyone? LOTS of 'em!

Were they protagonists? What were their motivations?

And it's just a quick pick from my memory, where only PC games are! Just! Fucking! Dig!

But if your other examples are as faulty as these, then you really shouldn't be ranting about it. If you can't follow the criteria set out, don't call the conclusion crap. If you want to question the criteria, fine. But there's complaining about a game you feel is rigged, and knowingly walking into a rigged game and complaining you lost.

And if you didn't understand the rules going in, that's similarly your responsibility.

 

[Xman490]

Since you seem to know so much about women in videogames, why not you join forces with Anita Sarkeesian and make her opinionated feminist rants valid? Sheesh, Jim. You absolutely LOVE the subject!

 

[Imp_Emissary]

Sonya from mortal Kombat would like to have a word with you. Also, a nice chunk of the DOTA and LoL women may have something to say.

You're answer for Jim is Sonya?
Sonya? From Mortal Kombat?

Spoiler: This Sonya?

You're joking, right?

As for DOTA and LOL, aren't the characters in those designed by the players, and not the deve

Sonya from mortal Kombat would like to have a word with you. Also, a nice chunk of the DOTA and LoL women may have something to say.

You're answer for Jim is Sonya?
Sonya? From Mortal Kombat?

Spoiler: This Sonya?

You're joking, right?

As for DOTA and LOL, aren't the characters in those designed by the players, and not the developers?

Check the earlier versions of her. If Jim is going THAT far back why can't I? And no, both Dota, and LoL (and hon left that out)have dev teams.

Well I think these are the older ones.
http://mortalkombat.wikia.com/wiki/Sonya_Blade

To be fair they are better. xD You can't say they aren't realistic. That said they still don't really match whay Jim is asking for.

Also, I don't mean the players make the characters, but they get to decide how they look. Like in Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fallout, and The Elder Scrolls.