Jimquisition: Vertigo

papersuit

New member
Sep 30, 2013
1
0
0
I know this isn't a Video Game Female, but The arch Domina Makeda from Privateer Press's miniatures Game HORDES would be a prime candidate for these qualities I would suggest looking at her character. Also Privateer Press has recently announced there involvement in turning there Minitures game into a video game
 

Lightknight

Mugwamp Supreme
Nov 26, 2008
4,860
0
0
This is a societal norm. The same is generally true for all areas of media and have been for millenia. Men also have to generally be attractive in media as well but it is certainly true that older men are more "permisseable" than older females. But if this is a societal standard, hard coded into human kind for all this time, why call out the gaming industry by itself (aside from you being a gaming reviewer which makes it your job to call it out)? Should gaming be held to a higher standard that movies, painted art, literature, and the like? I'm not saying it shouldn't, perhaps the act of interaction and ownership of the avatar does carry with it more weight.

However, you're criteria also disregarded several legitimate candidates. A female character can be pretty without being sexualized, it is wrong to throw out a character just because they aren't horribly scarred (kinda like a certain professional that fired a female employee because she was "too pretty"). How many men do you arrive at if you throw out the handsome/rugged men with abs of steel? I also find it unwarranted to throw out customizeable characters which are generally a direct response for female gamers. I'm not sure why you didn't use characters like Princess Peach in Mario Party and such unless you're talking about the character as a whole. How about that pink square from Thomas was Alone? Hah. We barely even knew what Chell looks like thanks to lesser graphics until recently. I assume you're talking about playable females and not just female characters in general. Otherwise I have quite a few (such as Ellie of Borderlands 2 fame, for example).

As I've said elsewhere. According to the 2010 ESA results, 40/60 (female/male) was the gamer ratio. In that year, we also learned that 80% of women who owned consoles had a Wii as their primary. 9% ps3, 11% 360. The current ESA 47%/53% was after including mobile gamers and over 50% of the respondants in that survey weren't planning to purchase even one game that year. We also have no reason to suspect the distribution has changed since then.

That means that AAA developers are looking at a console target market that is more than 80% males thanks to the underpowered wii consoles. So if you're going to create a stable, non-customiseable character then it suits you as a development studio to make a male character or a female character that appeals to males. Customizeability gets around that without alienating their largest market segment. But at an 80%+ male market you'd almost be demanding that a lady's stocking company make their crotch area more roomy for the X% of males that use the product even if it makes the females slightly less comfortable.

Either way, i couldn't care less what my avatar looks like. Could be an 80 year old woman in a clown costume as long as the story is compelling.
 

Callate

New member
Dec 5, 2008
5,118
0
0
I understand that with GTA V firmly in mind, it seems otherwise- but that list would disqualify an awful lot of male protagonists as well. Seriously- the "not inspired by some sort of trauma" requirement would remove about 99% of the non-pretty morally ambiguous men. Some do exist, sure, but compared to the over all roll sheet of protagonist characters, the disparity of male vs. female looks a lot worse than the one produced by this far narrower list of criteria.

I also feel some small need to point out that the "role model" stigma works against female characters as well. Part of why female characters can't be morally ambiguous is the same reason Lara Croft and Ellie from Last of Us get criticized for showing vulnerability- there are people who are ready to very loudly decry any arguably negative characteristics of a female character as implying that those traits apply to all women. Now to be clear, I'm not saying that's the only reason, and part of the reason for that reaction is an overall dearth of female characters makes it easier to make those sorts of associations with the ones who become prominent. But until we can tone back some of the more reflexive tendency to accuse developers of stereotyping at a drop of a hat rather than giving them a little bit of slack for at least trying to present a more diverse selection of characters, we're going to be served up course after course of straight white men voiced by Nolan North simply because it doesn't rock the boat. Sure, there will be people grousing about the field of generic heroes, but at least there's cover for that- casting a non-attractive African American lesbian as the morally questionable heroine would just put a big bullseye around the dev's neck.
 

Tombsite

New member
Nov 17, 2012
147
0
0
SonOfVoorhees said:
Still dont get why this is a "game" issue. Look at modelling, advertising, movies etc The whole size 0 thing. Even woman believe this crap when a mens mag showing woman in bikinis are given top shelf and black bagged, yet normal woman mags still have those photo shopped models with perfect looks etc.

I guess there is only one thing you can get out of this. Men dont care about age or looks. Grizzled or muscly or thin - men dont care. Men like sexy woman. Woman like strong sexy men. Same reason will woman play a game staring a 80 year old male? Its a non issue in my book. Make a compelling fun game where the character is a 60 year old woman, then i will play it. But also find me a woman that would play as a 60 year old and not a sexy 20 year old.

Maybe the issue is woman have been brainwashed by advertising to look young and sexy. By make up, music videos, adverts and models etc Not saying its right or wrong. Just thats how it is.

What do woman on escapist think?
Just because it is not an exclusive problems for games does not mean that games do not have to solve it as well. While it is true that women display a more varied view of what constitute an attractive man as opposed to what men thinks constitute an attractive woman, I highly doubt that was taken into consideration when designing the more diverse male characters.

Also it is rarely a good thing just to go "well can't fix that. That is just the way it is.". Would kinda lead to that stagnation of humanity's growth and all that. :)
 

Lord_Gremlin

New member
Apr 10, 2009
744
0
0
Chessrook44 said:
Frankly I agree with those who bring up Amaterasu. Sure she's a very pretty character design (But then the whole game is a very pretty character design) but I don't think she really counts as "Traditionally attractive".
If you were a wolf you'd think otherwise. So, nope, don't count.

Although, the deeper underlining issue here is that we normally don't feel like for a man to be ugly is a flaw.
 

Branindain

New member
Jul 3, 2013
187
0
0
Regarding Amaterasu, she certainly seems the perfect choice. Correct me if my memory is lying to me though, but didn't they pretty much obfuscate her gender throughout the game, presenting her as non-gendered unless you read the manual? Seems like fear of low-selling female protagonists again.
Also, if the only way to be an empowered video game female is to be an animalian deity of some description then that's sort of limiting in itself.
 

ShadowHamster

New member
Mar 17, 2008
64
0
0
Monxeroth said:
If looks doesnt matter, why cant women be "attractive" so to speak?
Why is the concept of Saints Row and other types of games such as MMOs completely discarded because theyre our creation not the developers?
Can then only good female characters exist if theyre created by the developer and not the player?
1.)They CAN be, it's just they always always ALWAYS are, even when it doesn't make sense. Even in a world where they can't keep nourished, can't bathe, can't keep their spores perfect, can't wear makeup, they are god damn sexy models! If looks don't matter, then why is it that they are hot even when it doesn't make a lick of sense?

2.)It's not that it doesn't matter, it's that unattractive females coming out of personal avatar games aren't icons, they are personal avatars and only you personally have any investment in them. When talking about PUBLIC scrutiny of female characters, a PERSONAL avatar does not count.

3.)Avatars aren't good or bad, they are what you make of them. Some people play skyrim by going to the first town, saving every few seconds, and seeing if they can wipe it out before moving to the next one. Some people play skyrim specifically TO glitch the game and do stuff that kills the immersion. This is no judgment to that style of play, it is simply stating that a well-made female character is completely different from a well-made female avatar. I would also state that me and my friends were, and still are, a bit disappointed in Saint Row 3's personal avatar tools. Compared to saints row 2, I cannot make my character an Anorexic Bolemic Crossdresser who had the left half of her face carved out, and just doesn't work out so any skin they do have showing is devoid of muscles and just has the nasty bone outline coming out of it. You could make that character in Saint's Row 2, but in Saint's Row 3 you are required to have ABS OF FUCKING STEEL!!!!

Here we are disappointed that the god damn game can't let us look horrible. We ARE the infamous and amoral masters of a street gang that regularly goes on mass killing sprees, so why for fucks sake are we required to look like barbies doing it.

I'ts okay though, we still pulled off an aging asian drag queen, who has let himself go due to droopy face syndrome. This works for our plans.
 

Bodster

New member
Sep 30, 2013
3
0
0
Going with another beat em up, Mitsuko from Bloody Roar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm8Kx9Fcu8Q
 

JarinArenos

New member
Jan 31, 2012
556
0
0
Okay, so counting Amaterasu, we have... two. And Ammy is, at least, a gorgeous specimen of wolf goddess. The attractiveness isn't even the least bit sexualized though, so she can have the point. Any others?

Um...

Having not played the game, I have no idea about the qualifications, but... Fat Princess?
 

Vicioussama

New member
Jun 5, 2008
100
0
0
Curious what you think about Maddox' take on women in games

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sexism_videogames

Kinda agree with his.
 

Chessrook44

Senior Member
Legacy
Feb 11, 2009
559
3
23
Country
United States
Lord_Gremlin said:
Chessrook44 said:
Frankly I agree with those who bring up Amaterasu. Sure she's a very pretty character design (But then the whole game is a very pretty character design) but I don't think she really counts as "Traditionally attractive".
If you were a wolf you'd think otherwise. So, nope, don't count.

Although, the deeper underlining issue here is that we normally don't feel like for a man to be ugly is a flaw.
And if you were a dinosaur lizard thing you'd think the character Jim chose was attractive. So by your logic she shouldn't count either.

Really though, the only place I'd see Ammy becoming "traditionally attractive" is in furry fan art that anthropomorphizes her. And since that ain't canon that don't count.
 

ImBigBob

New member
Dec 24, 2008
336
0
0
Hey Jim, I think I've found your woman, and she comes from one of my favorite games of all time, Fire Emblem on the GBA:

http://fireemblemwiki.org/w/images/thumb/6/69/FERK_Vaida.png/200px-FERK_Vaida.png

That's Vaida. She's a playable character. She's an older woman with a scar on her face. Granted, she's not one of the main characters, and she doesn't come in until late in the game, but still. It's true that she's wearing a short skirt and low-cut top, but she's remarkably older than most of the cast. Not to mention, she DOES have nonstandard motivations. At one point she's a boss character, but later she defects from the enemy army to join your side.

There you go, Jim. Can we get a Fire Emblem episode now?
 

Pat Hulse

New member
Oct 17, 2011
67
0
0
Monxeroth said:
erttheking said:
Monxeroth said:
Tombsite said:
Monxeroth said:
If looks doesnt matter, why cant women be "attractive" so to speak?
Why is the concept of Saints Row and other types of games such as MMOs completely discarded because theyre our creation not the developers?
Can then only good female characters exist if they're created by the developer and not the player?
They can, Jim doesn't have a problem with that. The problem is that apparently they can't be anything else than attractive. That is a problem.
Thats up for debate however and not an objective fact, especially if you just consider that to be the one part that matters to a player, regardless if its being marketed to you as such. Its a woman, shes attractive.
I like to compare this debate to the new steam controller rage:

oh my god look how bad this controller looks it must be shit.

While im thinking instead: I wonder what it feels like to use it for play though since i will use my controller for a game and not to look at.
Look you can split hairs as much as you want, but it's pretty hard to deny that a massive majority of female characters are designed with the intention of people trying to make them look good in mind. And a good looking character isn't a bad thing, a lot of people really like Mitsuru from Persona 3 and she's hardly lacking, but good looking for female is become ing what "White, brown haired thirty something" is for male. There is nothing wrong with a character like that but the sheer number of them is ridiculous and something ELSE would be nice.
Truth=/=Urgency

While its debatably somewhat true, the impact it has or the urgency of said subject isnt objectively problematic in itself, because again i must ask the question in that case: Does the opposite matter/not matter, and if so, why/why not?

I havent denied anything but neither am i so gullible to simply accept a black and white scenario without contrast.
First of all the fallacy that appearently then according to most arguments vs this, is well, we get a "non-traditionally attractive female protagonist" and then to break it down first of all. Well what constitutes one ideal over another, as you must be aware both male and female gamers find some "non-traditionally attractive males" to be appealing in games. The other problem comes with ambiguous genders and well, if it is a female but we cant tell, is it a female? If a tree falls in the forest without anyone around to hear it does it still make a noise, basically?
Then the third question of course becomes, protagonist, according to me? you? what about anti-heroes then or npcs or other characters in a game that have equal amount of impact on the game as you the player does?
Your question regarding "urgency" of this kind of representation discrepancy drudges up the dreaded Tumblr-abuse word of "privilege". Because you and I do not lack for representation in our favorite form of media, we cannot empathize with someone who has no high-profile representation in said medium. So the urgency of this sort of discrepancy may seem trivial to us, but as there are so many gamers clamoring for this sort of representation in games, one would assume they find it rather urgent.

To put it another way, your question seems to be "Yes, there probably is a discrepancy regarding the prominence of non-traditionally-attractive female protagonists in games vs. the male equivalent, but is that a serious problem?" Well, my feelings on the issue are that if a lot of people have a problem with it, their complaints seem reasonable, and changing things would require very little sacrifice from a practical or social perspective and our community stands to gain from it, I think whether or not it is "urgent" is a moot point. Rather, I think the more "urgent" matter is that people within our community seem hard-wired to resist this sort of observation and criticism as though it potentially threatens something.

It's really no different from when a person complains about how shooters are too generic or how single-player experiences are diminished to favor tacked-on multiplayer experiences. We complain about aspects of the industry that we don't like, hoping that they will change and improve our overall experience. That's exactly what those arguing for equal representation are doing. They dislike something in the industry, so they're pointing it out and complaining about it so it can change and improve their enjoyment of it. And unless someone thinks those changes will lessen their enjoyment of it, then I don't really understand why people bother to take it so personally as if they are accused of being called sexist just for enjoying video games.
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Oct 5, 2011
10,845
1
3
Country
United States
Monxeroth said:
erttheking said:
Monxeroth said:
Tombsite said:
Monxeroth said:
If looks doesnt matter, why cant women be "attractive" so to speak?
Why is the concept of Saints Row and other types of games such as MMOs completely discarded because theyre our creation not the developers?
Can then only good female characters exist if they're created by the developer and not the player?
They can, Jim doesn't have a problem with that. The problem is that apparently they can't be anything else than attractive. That is a problem.
Thats up for debate however and not an objective fact, especially if you just consider that to be the one part that matters to a player, regardless if its being marketed to you as such. Its a woman, shes attractive.
I like to compare this debate to the new steam controller rage:

oh my god look how bad this controller looks it must be shit.

While im thinking instead: I wonder what it feels like to use it for play though since i will use my controller for a game and not to look at.
Look you can split hairs as much as you want, but it's pretty hard to deny that a massive majority of female characters are designed with the intention of people trying to make them look good in mind. And a good looking character isn't a bad thing, a lot of people really like Mitsuru from Persona 3 and she's hardly lacking, but good looking for female is become ing what "White, brown haired thirty something" is for male. There is nothing wrong with a character like that but the sheer number of them is ridiculous and something ELSE would be nice.
Truth=/=Urgency

While its debatably somewhat true, the impact it has or the urgency of said subject isnt objectively problematic in itself, because again i must ask the question in that case: Does the opposite matter/not matter, and if so, why/why not?

I havent denied anything but neither am i so gullible to simply accept a black and white scenario without contrast.
First of all the fallacy that appearently then according to most arguments vs this, is well, we get a "non-traditionally attractive female protagonist" and then to break it down first of all. Well what constitutes one ideal over another, as you must be aware both male and female gamers find some "non-traditionally attractive males" to be appealing in games. The other problem comes with ambiguous genders and well, if it is a female but we cant tell, is it a female? If a tree falls in the forest without anyone around to hear it does it still make a noise, basically?
Then the third question of course becomes, protagonist, according to me? you? what about anti-heroes then or npcs or other characters in a game that have equal amount of impact on the game as you the player does?
First of all, yeah we have been getting some non-attractive males in gaming. I'd like to see someone flat out say that they think that Kratos is attractive. Come to think of it we have a lot of butt ugly guys in gaming. Marcus Fenix, Geralt of Rivia, Kratos as I mentioned before and that bloke from Asura's wrath. And yes ideals vary from person to person, I personally think that manly women are very attractive, but that's not the point. Here is one image of wolverine.

http://www.eastside-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/wolverine1.jpg

And here is another

http://wallpaper-share.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/the-wolverine-handsome-wallpaper-1024x576.jpg

It's pretty obvious which one had the intention of being attractive in it and while some people may find the second one ugly and some of them may find the first one attractive, that's not the point, it's about the intent, and intent is very obvious.

...What does that have to do with anything? And not necessarily, if a character is female, she is still a female even if her gender doesn't define her.

A protagonists in a video game is the character you play as, the main character that the story revolves around. End of story. Dom is not the protagonist of Gears of War, the Arbiter isn't the main character of Halo 2 even though he is playable, he is the deuteragonist, Clementine is not the protagonist of the Walking Dead, Elizabeth is not the protagonist of Bioshock Infinite, Ellie is not hte protagonist of the Last of Us.

Also, as for urgency, yes it is urgent because repetition breeds stagnation, and stagnation kills creativity.
 

hentropy

New member
Feb 25, 2012
737
0
0
Recette from Recettear is a pretty damn good female character in my estimation, as well as the female protags from other Carpe Fulgar games. Not exactly mainstream, though, I suppose, even if Recettear has quite the reach now.
 

Not G. Ivingname

New member
Nov 18, 2009
6,368
0
0
Vertigo is really only the protagonist in a fighting game sense. She has her own story, but so does everyone else you can play. If we are saying that is a protagonist, we can extend this to a few, if only a few, other women in gaming.

Broodmother from DOTA (and 2), who is a giant spider (thus not attractive in the slightest, besides to Keeper of the Light) who is really annoyed with all the people who keep coming from the surface and killing her young, fighting for their survival, not hers. She is really morally grey, since she cares more about her own spiders rather than any other humans.

Peacock and Double from Skullgirls: The former is a mutilated child, once a slave who was beaten, tortured and blinded (we get to see that happen from her. This caused her to go absolutely insane. She was rebuilt (it's implied the only bits of her that are not robotic are her brain and her face) by a man named Dr. Avian, to help hunt down the "Skull Girl" and end that threat once and for all. However, she does not do it for Dr. Avian, not pushed by the hardship she has suffered. She does it because he insanity, plus her augments, have turned her into a minor reality warper that looks and acts like a murderous cartoon. She does it (at first) because she really likes fighting, and later, to save her best friend who had been turned into the Skullgirl.



While she does have a sexy nun form, it's made very clear that isn't her true form in the slightest (her ability to turn into the other characters may suggest she ate who ever was that nun). This Elderich horror just wants to collect the other characters to om nom nom and gain their strength.

Special note goes to Painwheel, who has mostly the same motivations as the former, and a lot of the messed up designs for the later, but was "doing it for a man," strictly speaking. I wasn't sure if mind control counted, but I am going to just play it safe here.
 

Toilet

New member
Feb 22, 2012
401
0
0
It's almost like Jim doesnt know about Ingrid Bottomlow from Gnome Ranger. Ingrid was banished by her family for being un-gnome like getting an education and going to university and is teleported into a dark forest. She is a deep tormented character far more deep than Vertigo. She's also not pretty to look at either.