Jimquisition: Vertigo

[Tombsite]

If looks doesnt matter, why cant women be "attractive" so to speak?
Why is the concept of Saints Row and other types of games such as MMOs completely discarded because theyre our creation not the developers?
Can then only good female characters exist if they're created by the developer and not the player?

They can, Jim doesn't have a problem with that. The problem is that apparently they can't be anything else than attractive. That is a problem.

Thats up for debate however and not an objective fact, especially if you just consider that to be the one part that matters to a player, regardless if its being marketed to you as such. Its a woman, shes attractive.
I like to compare this debate to the new steam controller rage:

oh my god look how bad this controller looks it must be shit.

While im thinking instead: I wonder what it feels like to use it for play though since i will use my controller for a game and not to look at.

Wow you really do not have much of a point here besides straw-men but lets just pick it apart anyway.
If a woman can only have a certain type look that limits options. As having more options is always better (this by the way is an objective fact) then having less is at least not good. If we look at the male protagonists and see that they have, in fact, benefited from diversity it stands to reason that female protagonists would as well. The most likely conclusion is therefore that only attractive females is bad (but if you have to be facetious, and you most likely will be, then there is a very small chance that this does not matter).

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Still dont get why this is a "game" issue. Look at modelling, advertising, movies etc The whole size 0 thing. Even woman believe this crap when a mens mag showing woman in bikinis are given top shelf and black bagged, yet normal woman mags still have those photo shopped models with perfect looks etc.

I guess there is only one thing you can get out of this. Men dont care about age or looks. Grizzled or muscly or thin - men dont care. Men like sexy woman. Woman like strong sexy men. Same reason will woman play a game staring a 80 year old male? Its a non issue in my book. Make a compelling fun game where the character is a 60 year old woman, then i will play it. But also find me a woman that would play as a 60 year old and not a sexy 20 year old.

Maybe the issue is woman have been brainwashed by advertising to look young and sexy. By make up, music videos, adverts and models etc Not saying its right or wrong. Just thats how it is.

What do woman on escapist think?

 

[Ipsen]

<3 Primal Rage! Talon rocks! I have to admit, it scared 5-year old me more than Mortal Kombat 2 did, in the gore department.

OT, I just wish games had more context. In a world where the conflict controls the world like Gears of War, there's little reason for the women to look like total babes. In a rich or peaceful society, I could see more attractive people all around, since women (and men) would have the time and luxury to do so.

No protags here, but Fallout 3 portrayed this better than most in my book; it might be just the models, but I got the impression that atom-bomb-ruined DC did little to improve the looks of women.

 

[Chessrook44]

Frankly I agree with those who bring up Amaterasu. Sure she's a very pretty character design (But then the whole game is a very pretty character design) but I don't think she really counts as "Traditionally attractive".

 

[Andy Shandy]

Spoiler: *cough*

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

As people have already said The Boss isn't a playable character (yet!), although Ammy's a good shout. The only bit she might trip up at is that she might be seen as being told what to do by a "man", Issun. Although I'd say that would be a tad harsh.

How about Chell, from Portal? At least in the first one, she was just trying to survive GladOS. And I wouldn't call her particularly attractive in the game.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

I have only one challenge, and that's with the idea that it's regressive for female protagonists to have personal trauma's in their past or present. It can be overused, a cliche even (although I'd argue that if it is a cliche it's one that more than traverses the sexes). However, doesn't it just make complete sense for your protagonist to have something emotionally powerful to motivate them? Isn't that kind of how the whole concept of motivation works? I'm just trying to better understand what you're suggesting, because it sounds like the alternative would be to have a female protagonist who does things for no other reason than that their role in the story demands it of them, which sounds more like taking away their personality than giving them more of it.

Also, 'seek beauty'? You're not helping CAPTCHA.

 

[rofltehcat]

I don't know about you guys, but Vertigo's pretty sexy. Check out dem glutes!

Oh boy, what she could do with that tongue and tail of hers...

 

[webkilla]

I do wonder what the idea with the 'new eyes' are - but ok

As per this weeks topic:

...ya I got nothing. I can see why player-customized characters are written off, although I'd hold that while such logic doesn't apply to games like most MMOs, Saints Row and whatnot - then the mass effect games should be allowed to count as legit examples

I mean, there you can costumize the fem-shep's appearance, but her behavior is locked down to what the game allows you to do - and there in comes the writing and game mechanics, more so than MMOs or sandbox games like Saint's row more random character behavior. (even if it might be fun to imagine randomly rampaging around on the Citadel...)

then again - you could argue that shepard is a tricky example, since the female/male choice almost doesn't matter at all - the character behaving in pretty much the same way no matter way, so there's almost no unique feminine qualities to fem-shep

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Spoiler: *cough*

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

As people have already said The Boss isn't a playable character (yet!), although Ammy's a good shout. The only bit she might trip up at is that she might be seen as being told what to do by a "man", Issun. Although I'd say that would be a tad harsh.

How about Chell, from Portal? At least in the first one, she was just trying to survive GladOS. And I wouldn't call her particularly attractive in the game.

Issun isn't a man, Issun is Issun.

Besides, Ammy always stops paying attention when he goes of on one anyway, she doesn't so much listen to him, as tolerate him.

 

[papersuit]

I know this isn't a Video Game Female, but The arch Domina Makeda from Privateer Press's miniatures Game HORDES would be a prime candidate for these qualities I would suggest looking at her character. Also Privateer Press has recently announced there involvement in turning there Minitures game into a video game

 

[Lightknight]

This is a societal norm. The same is generally true for all areas of media and have been for millenia. Men also have to generally be attractive in media as well but it is certainly true that older men are more "permisseable" than older females. But if this is a societal standard, hard coded into human kind for all this time, why call out the gaming industry by itself (aside from you being a gaming reviewer which makes it your job to call it out)? Should gaming be held to a higher standard that movies, painted art, literature, and the like? I'm not saying it shouldn't, perhaps the act of interaction and ownership of the avatar does carry with it more weight.

However, you're criteria also disregarded several legitimate candidates. A female character can be pretty without being sexualized, it is wrong to throw out a character just because they aren't horribly scarred (kinda like a certain professional that fired a female employee because she was "too pretty"). How many men do you arrive at if you throw out the handsome/rugged men with abs of steel? I also find it unwarranted to throw out customizeable characters which are generally a direct response for female gamers. I'm not sure why you didn't use characters like Princess Peach in Mario Party and such unless you're talking about the character as a whole. How about that pink square from Thomas was Alone? Hah. We barely even knew what Chell looks like thanks to lesser graphics until recently. I assume you're talking about playable females and not just female characters in general. Otherwise I have quite a few (such as Ellie of Borderlands 2 fame, for example).

As I've said elsewhere. According to the 2010 ESA results, 40/60 (female/male) was the gamer ratio. In that year, we also learned that 80% of women who owned consoles had a Wii as their primary. 9% ps3, 11% 360. The current ESA 47%/53% was after including mobile gamers and over 50% of the respondants in that survey weren't planning to purchase even one game that year. We also have no reason to suspect the distribution has changed since then.

That means that AAA developers are looking at a console target market that is more than 80% males thanks to the underpowered wii consoles. So if you're going to create a stable, non-customiseable character then it suits you as a development studio to make a male character or a female character that appeals to males. Customizeability gets around that without alienating their largest market segment. But at an 80%+ male market you'd almost be demanding that a lady's stocking company make their crotch area more roomy for the X% of males that use the product even if it makes the females slightly less comfortable.

Either way, i couldn't care less what my avatar looks like. Could be an 80 year old woman in a clown costume as long as the story is compelling.

 

[Callate]

I understand that with GTA V firmly in mind, it seems otherwise- but that list would disqualify an awful lot of male protagonists as well. Seriously- the "not inspired by some sort of trauma" requirement would remove about 99% of the non-pretty morally ambiguous men. Some do exist, sure, but compared to the over all roll sheet of protagonist characters, the disparity of male vs. female looks a lot worse than the one produced by this far narrower list of criteria.

I also feel some small need to point out that the "role model" stigma works against female characters as well. Part of why female characters can't be morally ambiguous is the same reason Lara Croft and Ellie from Last of Us get criticized for showing vulnerability- there are people who are ready to very loudly decry any arguably negative characteristics of a female character as implying that those traits apply to all women. Now to be clear, I'm not saying that's the only reason, and part of the reason for that reaction is an overall dearth of female characters makes it easier to make those sorts of associations with the ones who become prominent. But until we can tone back some of the more reflexive tendency to accuse developers of stereotyping at a drop of a hat rather than giving them a little bit of slack for at least trying to present a more diverse selection of characters, we're going to be served up course after course of straight white men voiced by Nolan North simply because it doesn't rock the boat. Sure, there will be people grousing about the field of generic heroes, but at least there's cover for that- casting a non-attractive African American lesbian as the morally questionable heroine would just put a big bullseye around the dev's neck.

 

[Tombsite]

Still dont get why this is a "game" issue. Look at modelling, advertising, movies etc The whole size 0 thing. Even woman believe this crap when a mens mag showing woman in bikinis are given top shelf and black bagged, yet normal woman mags still have those photo shopped models with perfect looks etc.

I guess there is only one thing you can get out of this. Men dont care about age or looks. Grizzled or muscly or thin - men dont care. Men like sexy woman. Woman like strong sexy men. Same reason will woman play a game staring a 80 year old male? Its a non issue in my book. Make a compelling fun game where the character is a 60 year old woman, then i will play it. But also find me a woman that would play as a 60 year old and not a sexy 20 year old.

Maybe the issue is woman have been brainwashed by advertising to look young and sexy. By make up, music videos, adverts and models etc Not saying its right or wrong. Just thats how it is.

What do woman on escapist think?

Just because it is not an exclusive problems for games does not mean that games do not have to solve it as well. While it is true that women display a more varied view of what constitute an attractive man as opposed to what men thinks constitute an attractive woman, I highly doubt that was taken into consideration when designing the more diverse male characters.

Also it is rarely a good thing just to go "well can't fix that. That is just the way it is.". Would kinda lead to that stagnation of humanity's growth and all that.

 

[Lord_Gremlin]

Frankly I agree with those who bring up Amaterasu. Sure she's a very pretty character design (But then the whole game is a very pretty character design) but I don't think she really counts as "Traditionally attractive".

If you were a wolf you'd think otherwise. So, nope, don't count.

Although, the deeper underlining issue here is that we normally don't feel like for a man to be ugly is a flaw.

 

[Branindain]

Regarding Amaterasu, she certainly seems the perfect choice. Correct me if my memory is lying to me though, but didn't they pretty much obfuscate her gender throughout the game, presenting her as non-gendered unless you read the manual? Seems like fear of low-selling female protagonists again.
Also, if the only way to be an empowered video game female is to be an animalian deity of some description then that's sort of limiting in itself.

 

[ShadowHamster]

If looks doesnt matter, why cant women be "attractive" so to speak?
Why is the concept of Saints Row and other types of games such as MMOs completely discarded because theyre our creation not the developers?
Can then only good female characters exist if theyre created by the developer and not the player?

1.)They CAN be, it's just they always always ALWAYS are, even when it doesn't make sense. Even in a world where they can't keep nourished, can't bathe, can't keep their spores perfect, can't wear makeup, they are god damn sexy models! If looks don't matter, then why is it that they are hot even when it doesn't make a lick of sense?

2.)It's not that it doesn't matter, it's that unattractive females coming out of personal avatar games aren't icons, they are personal avatars and only you personally have any investment in them. When talking about PUBLIC scrutiny of female characters, a PERSONAL avatar does not count.

3.)Avatars aren't good or bad, they are what you make of them. Some people play skyrim by going to the first town, saving every few seconds, and seeing if they can wipe it out before moving to the next one. Some people play skyrim specifically TO glitch the game and do stuff that kills the immersion. This is no judgment to that style of play, it is simply stating that a well-made female character is completely different from a well-made female avatar. I would also state that me and my friends were, and still are, a bit disappointed in Saint Row 3's personal avatar tools. Compared to saints row 2, I cannot make my character an Anorexic Bolemic Crossdresser who had the left half of her face carved out, and just doesn't work out so any skin they do have showing is devoid of muscles and just has the nasty bone outline coming out of it. You could make that character in Saint's Row 2, but in Saint's Row 3 you are required to have ABS OF FUCKING STEEL!!!!

Here we are disappointed that the god damn game can't let us look horrible. We ARE the infamous and amoral masters of a street gang that regularly goes on mass killing sprees, so why for fucks sake are we required to look like barbies doing it.

I'ts okay though, we still pulled off an aging asian drag queen, who has let himself go due to droopy face syndrome. This works for our plans.

 

[Bodster]

Going with another beat em up, Mitsuko from Bloody Roar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm8Kx9Fcu8Q

 

[JarinArenos]

Okay, so counting Amaterasu, we have... two. And Ammy is, at least, a gorgeous specimen of wolf goddess. The attractiveness isn't even the least bit sexualized though, so she can have the point. Any others?

Um...

Having not played the game, I have no idea about the qualifications, but... Fat Princess?

 

[Vicioussama]

Curious what you think about Maddox' take on women in games

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sexism_videogames

Kinda agree with his.

 

[Chessrook44]

Frankly I agree with those who bring up Amaterasu. Sure she's a very pretty character design (But then the whole game is a very pretty character design) but I don't think she really counts as "Traditionally attractive".

If you were a wolf you'd think otherwise. So, nope, don't count.

Although, the deeper underlining issue here is that we normally don't feel like for a man to be ugly is a flaw.

And if you were a dinosaur lizard thing you'd think the character Jim chose was attractive. So by your logic she shouldn't count either.

Really though, the only place I'd see Ammy becoming "traditionally attractive" is in furry fan art that anthropomorphizes her. And since that ain't canon that don't count.