Those swear words were not born out of hatred towards the developers, but the frustration that has been building up inside of me from the extensive period of time I have been arguing in this thread and is me venting some of it out. Also, I find it rather odd that I of all people got singled out for this considering that when it comes to criticism, people on this website tend to be very crude when it comes to insulting developers, I personally feel very sorry for Gearbox right now. Not to mention I have a hard time buying that I should be ashamed about that statement considering I didn't single anyone out or insult them personally. If I had insulted the people at Activision or Epic Games it'd be a different story. No offense but I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.wulf3n said:That's the spirit, insult those that you want to make things for you, because that will convince them to go out of their way to please youerttheking said:
Jimquisition: Vertigo
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
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To be perfectly honest I don't really do that. I do my best to remain calm and respectful when criticizing games. Prolonged debates on these forums cause me to lose my temper sometimes. That's all.wulf3n said:
The yordals and anivia are the only ones that fit his criteria, Vayne, Vi, and Shyvana still very much fit the attractive mold, most of them have a tragedy that put them on that path in life and Annie is too young for woman status.cyrad said:
Also the point of the show was not to get lecture on what is the newest charter to break the mold, simply how few there are.
Hell the only human one I could think of is KOTOR II:Kreia.
One of the more baffling things (among many) about your argument is that you don't seem to understand that different women like different things. You talk about them as if they're some kind of hive mind who all have the same tastes. The same applies for men, too, of course. It's a pretty simple concept to grasp - different people have different preferences.uanime5 said:
Some women are attracted slender, pretty young men. Some women like older, rugged-looking men. And here's a shocker - some women like other women, and aren't sexually attracted to men at all! Weird, right?
You know, it's also not a good sign for the strength of your arguments when you resort to childish name-calling and questioning people's masculinity like using "mangina" or the ridiculous "White Knight" so many like to throw around.
P.S:
Would it hurt any of you to trim your quotes to just the relevant points you are responding to, rather than quoting the entire previous thread just to add a sentence or two at the end??
While I quoted you, I was referring to the phenomena in general. Look at practically any video game and it's reviews/discussion and your bound to find a not insignificant portion of the "fan base" insulting and attacking the developers.erttheking said:
I can understand why the developers/publishers tend to ignore the criticism and fall back on market research and what sells.
Hmmm, you know after discussing this episode with a friend of mine I've come to the possible conclusion that this whole segment was nothing but a clever ruse on the part of Mr. Sterling to entice one of his fans to send him a "Dino Vagina" from that weird sex toy site.
Oh. Well if that's what you're going for then yeah that is a bit of a problem. It's not that black and white if the Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut, the Dark Souls PC port and X-COM Enemy Unknown are anything to go by...but I really do with that people could say what they don't like in a game without losing their shit. I agree with you that we could do with that.wulf3n said:
Hello, hello
(Hola!)
I'm at a place called Vertigo
(Dónde está!)
It's everything I wish I didn't know
Except you give me something
I can feel, feel!
... oh wrong Vertigo.
Not like the one Jim's talking about is actually a fresh example, though.
Thank god for Jim! It's almost entertaining watching the White Guy Defense Force try and prove him wrong, and fail a lot. Bending, and breaking rules in a desperate attempt to make the representation of female characters look far better than it is.
It's almost adoreable, their futile attempts plinking off the armor of reality like peas off a tank. And for over 10 pages, and I'm still reading!
What few examples (frankly I haven't seen any solid ones, and I went almost through the entire thread if not the entire thread reading) people dredge up are old, obscure, and/or barely fit the criteria if they do at all.
I mean theres a few, lots of people backing Amaterasu, but the fact is she's a force of good. Jim spoke of villains. Ammy doesn't really make the best example.
How is it not telling due to the fact they gotta try so damn hard, or pretty much cheat by ignoring, bending, and breaking the guidelines? And even -with- all the disingenuos attempts the list is small, and outdated to say the least!
Ye'olde "It's not good for business" excuses pop up with no consideration that maybe, just maybe, the market's changing, and alienating customers likely created this whole "guys are the majority" players. In effect, attempts to protect the status quo. The market won't grow, or mature all that well with the status quo. And the game industry's in a serious hurt financially.
I can't wait for it to come down to "cater to women, or die" in a business sense.
Game produciton costs are going up. Almost exclusively catering to the Dude-bro, and Douche-bro has gotta fail sooner or later.
Oh, and the BS that guys can't write for women. TV, the Movie industry, and books generally prove that wrong.
There's a long list of old (And I do mean old. People are fond of pointing me to the list on Giant Bomb that goes back to the dawn of gaming, and even then the list is small considering that) games that prove that wrong. A lot of iconic female characters in gaming blow that argument out of the water. Shame the future's so bleak towards proving "guys can't write for women" wrong. I blame the anti-female mentality in the industry in general.
While I'm speaking of the list, it's not the answer. Modern, and future releases are the answer and they're lacking in general.
May as well say Aya Brea, Lara Croft, virtually every last fighting game woman, and virtually every last Resident Evil female character doesn't exist while yer at it.
I keep saying it. If we simply had a large variety of female protagonists in modern gaming, we wouldn't be here talking about the lack of them, or putting almost every last one we get under a magnifying glass.
We have market testers, the producers, consumers, and the developers to thank for this in part. Not all of them, thank god, but enough of them to make these topics so common.
Especially the producers as they interfere with the game. The latter is pretty toxic to gaming as it creates ripples of anti-female presense (ya know, sexism, misogyny, right? By the very frikking the definitions of them at the least.) across every level of the gaming industry.
Shit, I'd settle for a Catwoman (comic version)/ Gotham City Sirens-esque game as far as a game with amorally grey woman. Sure she'd be sexualized but at least she owns it, and I'd be playing as her which makes a metric fuck-ton of difference. I don't see her having a shot in hell in getting her own game, though. Yeah, she was in Arkham City and playable (and largely secondary) but you did so very little with her.
(Hola!)
I'm at a place called Vertigo
(Dónde está!)
It's everything I wish I didn't know
Except you give me something
I can feel, feel!
... oh wrong Vertigo.
Not like the one Jim's talking about is actually a fresh example, though.
Thank god for Jim! It's almost entertaining watching the White Guy Defense Force try and prove him wrong, and fail a lot. Bending, and breaking rules in a desperate attempt to make the representation of female characters look far better than it is.
It's almost adoreable, their futile attempts plinking off the armor of reality like peas off a tank. And for over 10 pages, and I'm still reading!
What few examples (frankly I haven't seen any solid ones, and I went almost through the entire thread if not the entire thread reading) people dredge up are old, obscure, and/or barely fit the criteria if they do at all.
I mean theres a few, lots of people backing Amaterasu, but the fact is she's a force of good. Jim spoke of villains. Ammy doesn't really make the best example.
How is it not telling due to the fact they gotta try so damn hard, or pretty much cheat by ignoring, bending, and breaking the guidelines? And even -with- all the disingenuos attempts the list is small, and outdated to say the least!
Ye'olde "It's not good for business" excuses pop up with no consideration that maybe, just maybe, the market's changing, and alienating customers likely created this whole "guys are the majority" players. In effect, attempts to protect the status quo. The market won't grow, or mature all that well with the status quo. And the game industry's in a serious hurt financially.
I can't wait for it to come down to "cater to women, or die" in a business sense.
Game produciton costs are going up. Almost exclusively catering to the Dude-bro, and Douche-bro has gotta fail sooner or later.
Oh, and the BS that guys can't write for women. TV, the Movie industry, and books generally prove that wrong.
There's a long list of old (And I do mean old. People are fond of pointing me to the list on Giant Bomb that goes back to the dawn of gaming, and even then the list is small considering that) games that prove that wrong. A lot of iconic female characters in gaming blow that argument out of the water. Shame the future's so bleak towards proving "guys can't write for women" wrong. I blame the anti-female mentality in the industry in general.
While I'm speaking of the list, it's not the answer. Modern, and future releases are the answer and they're lacking in general.
May as well say Aya Brea, Lara Croft, virtually every last fighting game woman, and virtually every last Resident Evil female character doesn't exist while yer at it.
I keep saying it. If we simply had a large variety of female protagonists in modern gaming, we wouldn't be here talking about the lack of them, or putting almost every last one we get under a magnifying glass.
We have market testers, the producers, consumers, and the developers to thank for this in part. Not all of them, thank god, but enough of them to make these topics so common.
Especially the producers as they interfere with the game. The latter is pretty toxic to gaming as it creates ripples of anti-female presense (ya know, sexism, misogyny, right? By the very frikking the definitions of them at the least.) across every level of the gaming industry.
Shit, I'd settle for a Catwoman (comic version)/ Gotham City Sirens-esque game as far as a game with amorally grey woman. Sure she'd be sexualized but at least she owns it, and I'd be playing as her which makes a metric fuck-ton of difference. I don't see her having a shot in hell in getting her own game, though. Yeah, she was in Arkham City and playable (and largely secondary) but you did so very little with her.
Except for the fact that's not true. There's a definite double-standard. How many TV shows are there where the husband is fat and/or balding or even just average looking and middle-aged, but has a hot younger-looking wife? How often do you see the reverse?The Dubya said:
Bueller...? Beuller...?
Not that would not agree with the state of industry and the message. But I don't think you did enough research on the non-cliche-female, Jim, considering you really mean what you proposed as only valid example. I think you completely evaded female NPCs n RPGs.
What about Tandi, Lynette or the Village Elder in Arroyo from Fallout 2?
EDIT: oh, playable. My bad. Now that is really harder.
What about Tandi, Lynette or the Village Elder in Arroyo from Fallout 2?
EDIT: oh, playable. My bad. Now that is really harder.
A few of the ladies from Dragon Age might fit the bill. Maybe not Origins, as all women had basically the same model so even the old healer in your group was stacked like a 20 year old...but Aveline from DA2 was not attractive at all....At ALL..
I think you're overstating it - there are people who are into men who are fat, who are "bears," guys who wear makeup or skirts, or assless pants. It might not be as common in the heterosexual world as in the gay world, but it's definitely there, and there are plenty of heterosexual women who have such attractions. Just as there are people of both genders who find intelligence and personality to factor more highly in their attraction than outward physical appearance.DrOswald said:
I'm sure you could avail yourself of any of the same fashion options women have and find a partner who is attracted to it.
Oh come on! This again?
Any time fat, ugly, or evil females are in a game, women complain that they're being mocked. "Fat-shaming!" is one thing popping up recently, some groups will condemn you for showing women being capable of cruelty and murder... Any time attractive slim women are in a game, you hear complaints of obectification and sexist gamers.
Nothing will ever be good enough for many women when it comes to representation. Remember this?
"Ellie isn't strong and independent enough!"
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/126648-Naughty-Dog-Responds-to-The-Last-of-Us-Sexism-Claims
It's all stupid opinions from minorities, just like those coming from guys about anything else, but the problem is the video game industry media treats EVERY opinion from a female group seriously, and as a valid concern for the game industry.
This also falls under the usual "Men enjoying eye-candy in video games learn to treat women as objects".
Any time fat, ugly, or evil females are in a game, women complain that they're being mocked. "Fat-shaming!" is one thing popping up recently, some groups will condemn you for showing women being capable of cruelty and murder... Any time attractive slim women are in a game, you hear complaints of obectification and sexist gamers.
Nothing will ever be good enough for many women when it comes to representation. Remember this?
"Ellie isn't strong and independent enough!"
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/126648-Naughty-Dog-Responds-to-The-Last-of-Us-Sexism-Claims
It's all stupid opinions from minorities, just like those coming from guys about anything else, but the problem is the video game industry media treats EVERY opinion from a female group seriously, and as a valid concern for the game industry.
This also falls under the usual "Men enjoying eye-candy in video games learn to treat women as objects".
The husbands are also dumb, often dumber than their children. It's considered anti-woman to portray women as a fat, dumb wife in a marriage on TV. She always has to be the smart one that can insult or hit her husband when the script calls for it.Aardvaarkman said:
I dunno, there's a lot of tall people that can't play basketball either. Lord knows most of the NBA is largely ignored save for a few star players by and large.wulf3n said:
Wasn't there a height minimum instated in the NBA? I dunno for sure.
Not a great analogy, IMO.
I get what you're saying though. Women would have an easier time writing for women. Thing is, even with women writing for women, those women being written for have to get out to market to begin with. It doesn't do a ton of good to have women writing for women when the women being written for will never make it to the end product.
Actually to be perfectly blunt I find the idea that men cannot write women to be beyond insulting. I love writing female characters. Do I stumble every now and then? Yes I do, but who doesn't. But I have learned and I feel like my characters are something that I can be proud of. I'm sorry, any writer that says that they can't write characters of the opposite sex isn't trying hard enough.wulf3n said:
My go-to has been Faith [Mirror's Edge], but by your conventions it's true she's only halfway there.
-Questionably attractive. It'd be a personal taste thing - no exposed huge chest, no skin tight jeans. She is however 20 or so.
-Her motives are not male oriented (for the most part. She does like her friends, including Merc)
-Merc could be construed as her 'boss' or even role model.
-She is largely independent and self sufficient.
You bring up a good point though. People like to go to LoL or DotA and dredge up someone like Spectre, but even then you're comparing a small percentage of the female population to a much more diverse male population. Vertigo's a good pick, though clearly none of the Primal Rage characters are attractive in a cosmopolitan sense.
Lastly though this issue is old. No, that doesn't make it irrelevant, and perhaps continuing to talk about it will net us some progress, but the industry seems to want to throw bits of so-called 'progress' at us a little at a time (see that more recent motherhood Metroid, or Tomb Raider). Games like Borderlands throw in that one fat chick as if it's shattering the mold. A large part of the issue has to be the audience, and for all the talk gamers seem to be content with mid level objectification and cliche stereotypes. Games keep getting purchased. I'm not sure what the alternative is -- are we all to simply shut our wallets and boycott until an acceptable female lead hits shelves? I personally haven't bought any of the more objectionable fare, but then I haven't bought much so developers probably care little about my wallet to begin with.
-Questionably attractive. It'd be a personal taste thing - no exposed huge chest, no skin tight jeans. She is however 20 or so.
-Her motives are not male oriented (for the most part. She does like her friends, including Merc)
-Merc could be construed as her 'boss' or even role model.
-She is largely independent and self sufficient.
You bring up a good point though. People like to go to LoL or DotA and dredge up someone like Spectre, but even then you're comparing a small percentage of the female population to a much more diverse male population. Vertigo's a good pick, though clearly none of the Primal Rage characters are attractive in a cosmopolitan sense.
Lastly though this issue is old. No, that doesn't make it irrelevant, and perhaps continuing to talk about it will net us some progress, but the industry seems to want to throw bits of so-called 'progress' at us a little at a time (see that more recent motherhood Metroid, or Tomb Raider). Games like Borderlands throw in that one fat chick as if it's shattering the mold. A large part of the issue has to be the audience, and for all the talk gamers seem to be content with mid level objectification and cliche stereotypes. Games keep getting purchased. I'm not sure what the alternative is -- are we all to simply shut our wallets and boycott until an acceptable female lead hits shelves? I personally haven't bought any of the more objectionable fare, but then I haven't bought much so developers probably care little about my wallet to begin with.
What about Legate Rikke from Skyrim. She may not be a playable character, but she does classify as a strong female protagonist/antagonist by your standards. She isn't overly beautiful, and you can clearly see her age. She has her own motives for fighting in the civil war, and she doesn't fights to appease the men around her.