Jimquisition: Vertigo

[Sutter Cane]

Still dont get why this is a "game" issue. Look at modelling, advertising, movies etc The whole size 0 thing. Even woman believe this crap when a mens mag showing woman in bikinis are given top shelf and black bagged, yet normal woman mags still have those photo shopped models with perfect looks etc.

I guess there is only one thing you can get out of this. Men dont care about age or looks. Grizzled or muscly or thin - men dont care. Men like sexy woman. Woman like strong sexy men. Same reason will woman play a game staring a 80 year old male? Its a non issue in my book. Make a compelling fun game where the character is a 60 year old woman, then i will play it. But also find me a woman that would play as a 60 year old and not a sexy 20 year old.

Maybe the issue is woman have been brainwashed by advertising to look young and sexy. By make up, music videos, adverts and models etc Not saying its right or wrong. Just thats how it is.

What do woman on escapist think?

but isn't that sort of like saying that there's no need to focus on preventing violence in schools because violence is a problem in real life as well? Just because other media has a similar problem doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix it in games.

 

[MB202]

There's this new Ubisoft game called Child of Light coming out soon that stars a female protagonist... Though she is a child, so I don't know if that applies...

 

[Aardvaarkman]

You need a citation to tell you that little girls prefer to be princesses and women prefer chick flicks? Have you never met a woman before?

Firstly, you're equating little girls to grown women and men? Your comparison was between princesses and Rambo - two entirely different age groups. Few women maintain their princess fantasies into adulthood. Furthermore, such media, toys, and gender roles are often pushed on children by their parents. Little girls wanting to be proncesses probably has as much to do with what their parents want, rather than what the children want.

But again, completely out of scope, because we are presumably talking about grown-ass gamers, not little children.

As for the chick flicks, yes, I'd like to see your citation on that. Lots of women hate chick flicks, and there are some guys who love them. In my (equally lacking in evidence as your claim) experience, women these days are probably more likely to go to an action film, a horror, or serious drama, as they are to go to a romantic comedy. I really don't think that genre is that popular these days.

Finally here's a study of movie preferences based on race, age, and gender. They found that women prefer romance; while men prefer action and sci-fi.
http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/sfischo/media3.html

Firstly: That study is over 16 years old. A lot has changed in that time.

Secondly: The top two most popular films among women were not "chick flicks."

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Biology. Men HAVE to be risk takers to reproduce, so they tend to prefer things that glamorize risk taking. Women NEED resources to survive past reproduction, so they prefer things that glamorize having material wealth or being the object of dotage or affection.

But we're well past the point where we need to reproduce to survive. In fact, excess reproduction could endanger our species.

Oh, and could you explain why men HAVE to be risk takers in order to reproduce? There are plenty of boring, play it safe guys out there who are doing just fine at reproducing. In fact, I would expect most women to want stability and reliability in their mate if they want to have children these days. I don't know many women who would choose to have children with a reckless drunk-driver with a risky job, over someone dependable and safe.

Women and Men like different things because of their biology.

Proof? As far as I'm aware, the nature vs. nurture debate has not been solved.

Stop being so dense.

Maybe you should think a little more deeply before you start throwing around insults at people who might hold different opinions. Note that at no point did I ever claim that biology couldn't be a factor. Yet you seem so cocksure that it is the only factor, even though that hasn't been shown by science yet.

How do you explain women who don't want to have children, and like risk-taking, and men who love children and are nursing and risk-averse? There's no shortage of those examples to go around.

 

[Pat Hulse]

And tell me, how do they find these people? Could it be that they just approach people based on their assumptions of their demographic? Could it be that they overlook women, assuming they probably don't play games?

They have these things called forums, which are located on websites. These allow them to talk with their customers. They can also hire people for this focus group and exclude anyone who doesn't play this genre of games.

How many marketing executives do you think read their game forums on a regular basis? I think you give them too much credit.

I told you you were talking out of your ass because that was the best-case scenario. Honestly, I was being polite. But clearly you're being serious, so yeah, I guess you really are this unbelievably stupid.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong. You shouldn't assume that your opinions are automatically correct.

Wow. Just wow.

What were the heroics in "Hunger Games"? Um, hunting game to feed her family in spite of it being illegal, volunteering for a suicide mission in her sister's stead even though no one in her district had ever volunteered in the history of the games, running into an almost certain death trap to get medicine for her teammate, pretending to have affection for him to increase his chances for survival... That's just off the top of my head.

Did she ever fight or kill anyone (you know the thing action heroes do when they're not talking)? Your list makes it seem like she spend most of her time either dodging people or being in dangerous situations but not experiencing any danger. I'm fairly certain if a man did this he's be called a coward for not fighting enough.

Yes, because murder is clearly the most important thing that defines a brave action hero. But yes, she does kill several people in "Hunger Games", some with mutant bees, some with her bow and arrow.

You really need me to list examples of successful women who write stories of heroic women? OK, fine, aside from Suzanne Collins, we have Tamora Pierce (seriously, read ANY of her books), Gail Simone, Ursula K. Le Guin, Seanan McGuire, Rhianna Pratchett, K.A. Applegate, Laurell K. Hamilton, Kelly Sue DeConnick... Do you really think women are just somehow genetically predisposed to not be interested in action and adventure or something? You're lucky I'm even taking this remotely seriously. Most rational people would have written you off as a lost cause long before "mangina".

Never heard of any of these authors; are they famous in your county? Also wasn't this list meant to be about women who write stories of heroic women for other women. How do I determine which books are most popular with women?

And clearly because you've never heard of them, they aren't important or successful. You sure showed me. Also, "my country"? Where the hell are you from, dude?

According to this study on movie preference by gender women do have a genetically predisposed to not be interested in action and adventure:
http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/sfischo/media3.html

The fact that you resorted to abuse because you didn't like what I wrote just undermines your argument.

...That article is from the 90's. That study is almost old enough to legally drive. And it has a sample size of 560 individuals. And it doesn't even support your claim that women are "genetically predisposed" since it's just as likely that the women in this survey favored drama films because they tended to have a stronger female presence. Is this seriously the best you got or was it just the first hit when you googled "How many women are interested in action adventure"? You are seriously the closest to a literal strawman I've ever argued with. I'm not sure if I should feel impressed or not.

Part of the reason they can only make three games a year is because they are really bad with money and make horribly over-bloated games. If they made more smaller games that didn't try so hard to have ridiculously high production values and aimed to be more stylized, they could afford to take more risks and focus on gameplay.

Businesses generally don't take risks unless they can:
A) Survive any loss they may make.
B) Are likely to make much greater profits.

So even if they stop making over-bloated games they'll most likely move onto whatever guarantees the most profit.[/quote]

Look into the backstory of the recent games "XCOM: Enemy Unknown" and "The Bureau: XCOM Declassified". Guess which one was considered the "safe bet" and given the larger budget and marketing push? Guess which one ended up making them more money and has become the new flagship for the rebooted XCOM franchise? I think you'll understand what I mean when I say that video game companies tend to operate more on assumptions regarding their market rather than any substantial accurate data.

Jeez, criticizing Jim again? Why not just make your own video saying all your points instead of restricting Jim? If you want something to change you should be prepared to do the hard work, rather than demand someone else does it for you.

See what I mean?

I'm content with continuing to point out the errors in Jim's video even if he never changes.

And whoosh you completely miss the irony.

Welp, I think I've done all I can for you, my friend. You can keep living in your world based on willful ignorance and studies from 1998, or you can read a damn book. Expand your worldview. Maybe actually talk to a woman. Good night and good luck.

 

[BQE]

Ladies and Gentleman, boys and girls of all ages!
I have found the answer that you seek!

Is she a female? YES
Is the protaganist or a playable character? YES
Is not conventionally attractive? YES
Is she human? YES

I'm sure you're waiting with bated breath but let me assure you this fox will fit all your criteria!
A woman who goes on a sociopathic rampage to achieve some peace and quiet and yes indeed, you play as this woman!
Let me introduce, a lady who probably needs plenty of introduction....

http://twistedmetal.wikia.com/wiki/Granny_Dread

Yes that's right. I say if Mr. Sterling can nominate a female monster from an archaic game, then Granny Dread should fit the bill perfectly then. [/spoiler]

I believe the ball is in your court.

 

[Dragonbums]

Snip,

There is one Gears of War female playable character that comes to mind here in regards to you asking where the old grey haired ones are:

Spoiler: Bernadette.

Bernadette is based off a New Zealander who is racially mixed (half Maori, half Caucasian) so she's got a bit of uniqueness there as well.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall point, I'm just saying Gears of War has a 50+ years old lady who's kicking ass with the rest of them.

Ah sweet!
Thanks for that!

That actually lightened up my mood.
Being who I am, I'm the literal bottom of the barrel when it comes to representation. Right there next to the LGBT community.
Really nice to see things like this from time to time.

 

[Velocir_X]

Biology. Men HAVE to be risk takers to reproduce, so they tend to prefer things that glamorize risk taking. Women NEED resources to survive past reproduction, so they prefer things that glamorize having material wealth or being the object of dotage or affection.

But we're well past the point where we need to reproduce to survive. In fact, excess reproduction could endanger our species.

Oh, and could you explain why men HAVE to be risk takers in order to reproduce? There are plenty of boring, play it safe guys out there who are doing just fine at reproducing. In fact, I would expect most women to want stability and reliability in their mate if they want to have children these days. I don't know many women who would choose to have children with a reckless drunk-driver with a risky job, over someone dependable and safe.

Women and Men like different things because of their biology.

Proof? As far as I'm aware, the nature vs. nurture debate has not been solved.

Stop being so dense.

Maybe you should think a little more deeply before you start throwing around insults at people who might hold different opinions. Note that at no point did I ever claim that biology couldn't be a factor. Yet you seem so cocksure that it is the only factor, even though that hasn't been shown by science yet.

How do you explain women who don't want to have children, and like risk-taking, and men who love children and are nursing and risk-averse? There's no shortage of those examples to go around.

Protip: if you want people to stop throwing around perceived insults, you probably should do the same.

Anyway there's a significant difference between what we talk about in scientific models and generalizations and what you experience in your day to day life. Of course you will find exceptions, these are generalizations! Furthermore to in anyway use modern reproductive conditions, which here in western nations are for the most part the result of the sexual revolution in the 60s, as factor of consideration when talking about evolution, which happens on a 10 thousand (at least!) timescale is very much absurd. Our brains are not very different from what they were like back at the dawn of man, and much of what you see is those old genes being expressed under new conditions. An old dog learning new tricks so to speak. So of course it make sense to analyze modern behaviors in terms of being unintended of genes that lead to successful reproduction in the past. Nothing groundbreaking. Fairly standard evolutionary psychology.

Now to give us a little more concrete logical base to the argument, let me use something you mentioned earlier: "that equating the pretty princess fantasies of a little girl to the likes of a woman is absurd, and that the child's fantasies may very well be the result of a parent." The funny thing is that the earlier in development something is expressed the MORE (not less) likely it is to be the result of biology and not environment. Need a citation? This is outright stated by Simon Baron Cohen (very influential researcher in biological gender differences and autism, also the cousin of comedian Sascha Baron Cohen amusingly enough) in the documentary I linked. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiJVJ5QRRUE)

Now I bring up this documentary, even though its not necessarily directly related to the topic, because it does a lot of things well when it comes to talking about biology with regards to behavior in our modern society. To build off one of them: I didn't bring up biology because its the only explanatory variable, but because its a very important one (at least 50%) and is criminally underrated by the public at large, as expertly demonstrated in the documentary. It is often axed for the sake of political correctness (authoritarian egalitarianism).

 

[Dragonbums]

Spoiler: *cough*

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

The Boss isn't a playable character nor a protagonist. She's a great character, to be sure, but not quite what Jim's talking about. I've got nothing on Amaterasu though.

In this thread I expect plenty of people to say that plenty of male characters are sexualized, completely ignoring the fact that they are male empowerment fantasies ( something to aspire to, rather than something to desire), where few-to-no female characters are female empowerment fantasies.

I think that bit about most games being a male empowerment fantasy might be the root problem here actually. I just thought about all the games that I love, and a fair majority of them are in fact male empowerment fantasies. So that makes me wonder, what would a female empowerment fantasy look like? Do any even exist?

I'm not saying making a few games that are focus tested for women the same way COD is for men is the answer, or not inherently sexist, but I must admit curiosity for what the result might be.

Perhaps the Mighty and Benevolent Jim Sterling can field this one after he is done with Season Passes.

They do exist. The biggest example being Commander Shepard (female) in Mass Effect. Which means that the equivalent of female empowerment is no more different than male empowerment. Seeing as how regardless of what sex you choose to make your Commander- sans romance options, the overall narration based upon your choices is exactly the same.

Sadly however characters like her are simply brushed off as "men with boobs".

I would even go as far as to say Bayonetta as well. If you ignore the skimpy outfit part.

 

[wulf3n]

Not a great analogy, IMO.

Analogies aren't my strong suit

I get what you're saying though. Women would have an easier time writing for women. Thing is, even with women writing for women, those women being written for have to get out to market to begin with. It doesn't do a ton of good to have women writing for women when the women being written for will never make it to the end product.

I think what it comes down to and what the "men can't write for woman" argument is somewhat based on is the idea that the lack of female representation within the industry as a whole is a part of the problem.

It's not only a gender is likely to be better at writing characters in their own gender, but also more likely to want to.
I would assume most games start with a spark of "Wouldn't that be awesome", presumably biased by their gender. Effectively what I'm saying is we need more woman an the industry if we want to see change.

Actually to be perfectly blunt I find the idea that men cannot write women to be beyond insulting. I love writing female characters. Do I stumble every now and then? Yes I do, but who doesn't. But I have learned and I feel like my characters are something that I can be proud of. I'm sorry, any writer that says that they can't write characters of the opposite sex isn't trying hard enough.

It's a generalization implying that it's more difficult, though not necessarily impossible. I'm not a writer but I've heard that a good writer draws inspiration from their own experience, therefore it's easier for a gender to create characters of their own gender.

 

[Dragonbums]

Care to explain why so many women want to be a princess and so few want to be Rambo. Could it be because the vast majority of women do have similar tastes? That would explain why chick-flicks appeal mainly to women, while action movies don't.

I'll say it again:

CITATION.

NEEDED.

You need a citation to tell you that little girls prefer to be princesses and women prefer chick flicks? Have you never met a woman before?

What about everything covered with the Disney Princesses? The dress up dolls aren't aimed at boys.
http://princess.disney.com/shop

Here's a definition of chick-flick:
"a motion picture intended to appeal especially to women".

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chick%20flick

Finally here's a study of movie preferences based on race, age, and gender. They found that women prefer romance; while men prefer action and sci-fi.
http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/sfischo/media3.html

All of them are preconceived stereotypes projected on girls (and boys with action figures and cars) to mold them into cookie cutter demographics of what boys and girls should like.

As a woman myself, I like princesses at first because that is what every other girl liked and girls should like princesses. So, as a normal girl I "liked" princesses. That slowly deviated when I got my first videogame console the N64, and I started to enjoy more "boy" things like Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Digimon, and basically said fuck that monsters are cool. Which then lead me to liking shows like Zoids, and ignoring those shit girl shows like the old MLP.
Luckily my parents never forced me back into the "girly" mold, and let me like what I like.

The consequence being that from Elementary to Middle school I was picked on for being a weirdo, a tomboy, and all manner of insults associated with girls that don't fit into the "girly" category. And it wasn't until my High school years that I started to have friends circles that weren't all guys but me.

Today, parents will have no problems letting their little girls buy dolls along with action figures if it so tastes their fancy. Seeing as how feminism has pushed hard to break that stereotype.

However bless the poor boy that dares to even so much as suggest an interest in a doll or any other "girly" product like easy bakes. The kid will be labelled a potential gay before the child even knows what the hell it means.

 

[Dragonbums]

Ladies and Gentleman, boys and girls of all ages!
I have found the answer that you seek!

Is she a female? YES
Is the protaganist or a playable character? YES
Is not conventionally attractive? YES
Is she human? YES

I'm sure you're waiting with bated breath but let me assure you this fox will fit all your criteria!
A woman who goes on a sociopathic rampage to achieve some peace and quiet and yes indeed, you play as this woman!
Let me introduce, a lady who probably needs plenty of introduction....

http://twistedmetal.wikia.com/wiki/Granny_Dread

Yes that's right. I say if Mr. Sterling can nominate a female monster from an archaic game, then Granny Dread should fit the bill perfectly then. [/spoiler]

I believe the ball is in your court.

10/10

Best comment of the year.
I literally had the best laugh I've had all year.

Good job sir/ma'am Good job

That's it folks. Sexism in the industry has been debunked.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Not a great analogy, IMO.

Analogies aren't my strong suit

I get what you're saying though. Women would have an easier time writing for women. Thing is, even with women writing for women, those women being written for have to get out to market to begin with. It doesn't do a ton of good to have women writing for women when the women being written for will never make it to the end product.

I think what it comes down to and what the "men can't write for woman" argument is somewhat based on is the idea that the lack of female representation within the industry as a whole is a part of the problem.

It's not only a gender is likely to be better at writing characters in their own gender, but also more likely to want to.
I would assume most games start with a spark of "Wouldn't that be awesome", presumably biased by their gender. Effectively what I'm saying is we need more woman an the industry if we want to see change.

I get what yer sayin'. There's lots of people thinking that the lack of women in the industry is the problem, and, heck, I'm willing to believe it to an extent, but it's just not that much of an excuse. Doesn't change anything, and it's certainly not a cure in, and of itself to have more women in the industry.
But like I said, there's plenty of guys that wrote for women successfully, and writing for a character that will never be in a produced game is an act of futility regardless of the gender of the writer.

Other medias also kick the crap out of the notion that men can't write for women.

In other words, I understand why the excuse exists, but it just doesn't have much weight.

 

[Velocir_X]

Care to explain why so many women want to be a princess and so few want to be Rambo. Could it be because the vast majority of women do have similar tastes? That would explain why chick-flicks appeal mainly to women, while action movies don't.

I'll say it again:

CITATION.

NEEDED.

You need a citation to tell you that little girls prefer to be princesses and women prefer chick flicks? Have you never met a woman before?

What about everything covered with the Disney Princesses? The dress up dolls aren't aimed at boys.
http://princess.disney.com/shop

Here's a definition of chick-flick:
"a motion picture intended to appeal especially to women".

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chick%20flick

Finally here's a study of movie preferences based on race, age, and gender. They found that women prefer romance; while men prefer action and sci-fi.
http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/sfischo/media3.html

All of them are preconceived stereotypes projected on girls (and boys with action figures and cars) to mold them into cookie cutter demographics of what boys and girls should like.

As a woman myself, I like princesses at first because that is what every other girl liked and girls should like princesses. So, as a normal girl I "liked" princesses. That slowly deviated when I got my first videogame console the N64, and I started to enjoy more "boy" things like Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Digimon, and basically said fuck that monsters are cool. Which then lead me to liking shows like Zoids, and ignoring those shit girl shows like the old MLP.
Luckily my parents never forced me back into the "girly" mold, and let me like what I like.

The consequence being that from Elementary to Middle school I was picked on for being a weirdo, a tomboy, and all manner of insults associated with girls that don't fit into the "girly" category. And it wasn't until my High school years that I started to have friends circles that weren't all guys but me.

Today, parents will have no problems letting their little girls buy dolls along with action figures if it so tastes their fancy. Seeing as how feminism has pushed hard to break that stereotype.

However bless the poor boy that dares to even so much as suggest an interest in a doll or any other "girly" product like easy bakes. The kid will be labelled a potential gay before the child even knows what the hell it means.

Your personal anecdote is inspiring, but that claim is outright debunked (for the most part) in the documentary I keep on posting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiJVJ5QRRUE

or if you want to skip the video and go right down to the nitty gritty:
http://www.math.kth.se/matstat/gru/5b1501/F/sex.pdf (Simon Baron Cohen's recent study of newborns)

Things being expressed earlier are MORE the result of biology than culture, not the other way around.

 

[Terramax]

Thing is Jim, if you look at women in products for women - whether it be make-up, hair dye products, magazines, and movies specifically targeted at women, made by women, they're all beautiful too. Fact of the matter is, women only want to see pretty women too.

Honestly, I think Jim is just redoing this same gender argument because he's nothing else to talk about on the week, and it's an easy way of rallying up anger.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Protip: if you want people to stop throwing around perceived insults, you probably should do the same.

What insult did I give?

 

[Velocir_X]

Protip: if you want people to stop throwing around perceived insults, you probably should do the same.

What insult did I give?

Calling someone cocksure is as much capable of being perceived as an insult as calling someone dense.

 

[Nicy]

Thank you so much for this video, Mr. Sterling. If the people with prominent voices and the minds to say something worthwhile continue to talk about what's wrong with our culture, eventually people will come around.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

It's not only a gender is likely to be better at writing characters in their own gender, but also more likely to want to.

Why would you assume that? We're talking about fiction - I think many writers want to explore worlds and scenarios and characters that are different to their own. Look how many people write Science Fiction or Fantasy - they aren't writing those novels to explore their own world, but to explore the unfamiliar.

Heck, isn't that what role playing and a lot of video games are about? Playing in a world that you don't experience in your day-to-day life? Most fiction isn't about the author's crappy day at the office. So, why wouldn't a male writer be more interested in writing a female character or vice-versa?

 

[Jan Smejkal]

Any time fat, ugly, or evil females are in a game, women complain that they're being mocked.

Any examples? Just, you know, because that kinda contradicts Jim's findings. Women cannot complain about ugly, fat or evil female chars if there have been virtually none. So, some examples please. And please don't come up with some oh-so-evil and at the same booby-butty sado-maso-fetish-dream female character. That doesn't meet criteria Jim (and me too BTW) is looking for. It is just a playmate goes nuts.

Males are appear in many many many many many more different roles than females. Not very often (most are shallow heroic 35-ish white unshaved dudes with short brown hair which is also annoying) but they do. That is a fact.