Jimquisition: Vertigo

[Dragonbums]

Snip,

There is one Gears of War female playable character that comes to mind here in regards to you asking where the old grey haired ones are:

Spoiler: Bernadette.

Bernadette is based off a New Zealander who is racially mixed (half Maori, half Caucasian) so she's got a bit of uniqueness there as well.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall point, I'm just saying Gears of War has a 50+ years old lady who's kicking ass with the rest of them.

Ah sweet!
Thanks for that!

That actually lightened up my mood.
Being who I am, I'm the literal bottom of the barrel when it comes to representation. Right there next to the LGBT community.
Really nice to see things like this from time to time.

 

[Velocir_X]

Biology. Men HAVE to be risk takers to reproduce, so they tend to prefer things that glamorize risk taking. Women NEED resources to survive past reproduction, so they prefer things that glamorize having material wealth or being the object of dotage or affection.

But we're well past the point where we need to reproduce to survive. In fact, excess reproduction could endanger our species.

Oh, and could you explain why men HAVE to be risk takers in order to reproduce? There are plenty of boring, play it safe guys out there who are doing just fine at reproducing. In fact, I would expect most women to want stability and reliability in their mate if they want to have children these days. I don't know many women who would choose to have children with a reckless drunk-driver with a risky job, over someone dependable and safe.

Women and Men like different things because of their biology.

Proof? As far as I'm aware, the nature vs. nurture debate has not been solved.

Stop being so dense.

Maybe you should think a little more deeply before you start throwing around insults at people who might hold different opinions. Note that at no point did I ever claim that biology couldn't be a factor. Yet you seem so cocksure that it is the only factor, even though that hasn't been shown by science yet.

How do you explain women who don't want to have children, and like risk-taking, and men who love children and are nursing and risk-averse? There's no shortage of those examples to go around.

Protip: if you want people to stop throwing around perceived insults, you probably should do the same.

Anyway there's a significant difference between what we talk about in scientific models and generalizations and what you experience in your day to day life. Of course you will find exceptions, these are generalizations! Furthermore to in anyway use modern reproductive conditions, which here in western nations are for the most part the result of the sexual revolution in the 60s, as factor of consideration when talking about evolution, which happens on a 10 thousand (at least!) timescale is very much absurd. Our brains are not very different from what they were like back at the dawn of man, and much of what you see is those old genes being expressed under new conditions. An old dog learning new tricks so to speak. So of course it make sense to analyze modern behaviors in terms of being unintended of genes that lead to successful reproduction in the past. Nothing groundbreaking. Fairly standard evolutionary psychology.

Now to give us a little more concrete logical base to the argument, let me use something you mentioned earlier: "that equating the pretty princess fantasies of a little girl to the likes of a woman is absurd, and that the child's fantasies may very well be the result of a parent." The funny thing is that the earlier in development something is expressed the MORE (not less) likely it is to be the result of biology and not environment. Need a citation? This is outright stated by Simon Baron Cohen (very influential researcher in biological gender differences and autism, also the cousin of comedian Sascha Baron Cohen amusingly enough) in the documentary I linked. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiJVJ5QRRUE)

Now I bring up this documentary, even though its not necessarily directly related to the topic, because it does a lot of things well when it comes to talking about biology with regards to behavior in our modern society. To build off one of them: I didn't bring up biology because its the only explanatory variable, but because its a very important one (at least 50%) and is criminally underrated by the public at large, as expertly demonstrated in the documentary. It is often axed for the sake of political correctness (authoritarian egalitarianism).

 

[Dragonbums]

Spoiler: *cough*

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

The Boss isn't a playable character nor a protagonist. She's a great character, to be sure, but not quite what Jim's talking about. I've got nothing on Amaterasu though.

In this thread I expect plenty of people to say that plenty of male characters are sexualized, completely ignoring the fact that they are male empowerment fantasies ( something to aspire to, rather than something to desire), where few-to-no female characters are female empowerment fantasies.

I think that bit about most games being a male empowerment fantasy might be the root problem here actually. I just thought about all the games that I love, and a fair majority of them are in fact male empowerment fantasies. So that makes me wonder, what would a female empowerment fantasy look like? Do any even exist?

I'm not saying making a few games that are focus tested for women the same way COD is for men is the answer, or not inherently sexist, but I must admit curiosity for what the result might be.

Perhaps the Mighty and Benevolent Jim Sterling can field this one after he is done with Season Passes.

They do exist. The biggest example being Commander Shepard (female) in Mass Effect. Which means that the equivalent of female empowerment is no more different than male empowerment. Seeing as how regardless of what sex you choose to make your Commander- sans romance options, the overall narration based upon your choices is exactly the same.

Sadly however characters like her are simply brushed off as "men with boobs".

I would even go as far as to say Bayonetta as well. If you ignore the skimpy outfit part.

 

[wulf3n]

Not a great analogy, IMO.

Analogies aren't my strong suit

I get what you're saying though. Women would have an easier time writing for women. Thing is, even with women writing for women, those women being written for have to get out to market to begin with. It doesn't do a ton of good to have women writing for women when the women being written for will never make it to the end product.

I think what it comes down to and what the "men can't write for woman" argument is somewhat based on is the idea that the lack of female representation within the industry as a whole is a part of the problem.

It's not only a gender is likely to be better at writing characters in their own gender, but also more likely to want to.
I would assume most games start with a spark of "Wouldn't that be awesome", presumably biased by their gender. Effectively what I'm saying is we need more woman an the industry if we want to see change.

Actually to be perfectly blunt I find the idea that men cannot write women to be beyond insulting. I love writing female characters. Do I stumble every now and then? Yes I do, but who doesn't. But I have learned and I feel like my characters are something that I can be proud of. I'm sorry, any writer that says that they can't write characters of the opposite sex isn't trying hard enough.

It's a generalization implying that it's more difficult, though not necessarily impossible. I'm not a writer but I've heard that a good writer draws inspiration from their own experience, therefore it's easier for a gender to create characters of their own gender.

 

[Dragonbums]

Care to explain why so many women want to be a princess and so few want to be Rambo. Could it be because the vast majority of women do have similar tastes? That would explain why chick-flicks appeal mainly to women, while action movies don't.

I'll say it again:

CITATION.

NEEDED.

You need a citation to tell you that little girls prefer to be princesses and women prefer chick flicks? Have you never met a woman before?

What about everything covered with the Disney Princesses? The dress up dolls aren't aimed at boys.
http://princess.disney.com/shop

Here's a definition of chick-flick:
"a motion picture intended to appeal especially to women".

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chick%20flick

Finally here's a study of movie preferences based on race, age, and gender. They found that women prefer romance; while men prefer action and sci-fi.
http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/sfischo/media3.html

All of them are preconceived stereotypes projected on girls (and boys with action figures and cars) to mold them into cookie cutter demographics of what boys and girls should like.

As a woman myself, I like princesses at first because that is what every other girl liked and girls should like princesses. So, as a normal girl I "liked" princesses. That slowly deviated when I got my first videogame console the N64, and I started to enjoy more "boy" things like Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Digimon, and basically said fuck that monsters are cool. Which then lead me to liking shows like Zoids, and ignoring those shit girl shows like the old MLP.
Luckily my parents never forced me back into the "girly" mold, and let me like what I like.

The consequence being that from Elementary to Middle school I was picked on for being a weirdo, a tomboy, and all manner of insults associated with girls that don't fit into the "girly" category. And it wasn't until my High school years that I started to have friends circles that weren't all guys but me.

Today, parents will have no problems letting their little girls buy dolls along with action figures if it so tastes their fancy. Seeing as how feminism has pushed hard to break that stereotype.

However bless the poor boy that dares to even so much as suggest an interest in a doll or any other "girly" product like easy bakes. The kid will be labelled a potential gay before the child even knows what the hell it means.

 

[Dragonbums]

Ladies and Gentleman, boys and girls of all ages!
I have found the answer that you seek!

Is she a female? YES
Is the protaganist or a playable character? YES
Is not conventionally attractive? YES
Is she human? YES

I'm sure you're waiting with bated breath but let me assure you this fox will fit all your criteria!
A woman who goes on a sociopathic rampage to achieve some peace and quiet and yes indeed, you play as this woman!
Let me introduce, a lady who probably needs plenty of introduction....

http://twistedmetal.wikia.com/wiki/Granny_Dread

Yes that's right. I say if Mr. Sterling can nominate a female monster from an archaic game, then Granny Dread should fit the bill perfectly then. [/spoiler]

I believe the ball is in your court.

10/10

Best comment of the year.
I literally had the best laugh I've had all year.

Good job sir/ma'am Good job

That's it folks. Sexism in the industry has been debunked.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Not a great analogy, IMO.

Analogies aren't my strong suit

I get what you're saying though. Women would have an easier time writing for women. Thing is, even with women writing for women, those women being written for have to get out to market to begin with. It doesn't do a ton of good to have women writing for women when the women being written for will never make it to the end product.

I think what it comes down to and what the "men can't write for woman" argument is somewhat based on is the idea that the lack of female representation within the industry as a whole is a part of the problem.

It's not only a gender is likely to be better at writing characters in their own gender, but also more likely to want to.
I would assume most games start with a spark of "Wouldn't that be awesome", presumably biased by their gender. Effectively what I'm saying is we need more woman an the industry if we want to see change.

I get what yer sayin'. There's lots of people thinking that the lack of women in the industry is the problem, and, heck, I'm willing to believe it to an extent, but it's just not that much of an excuse. Doesn't change anything, and it's certainly not a cure in, and of itself to have more women in the industry.
But like I said, there's plenty of guys that wrote for women successfully, and writing for a character that will never be in a produced game is an act of futility regardless of the gender of the writer.

Other medias also kick the crap out of the notion that men can't write for women.

In other words, I understand why the excuse exists, but it just doesn't have much weight.

 

[Velocir_X]

Care to explain why so many women want to be a princess and so few want to be Rambo. Could it be because the vast majority of women do have similar tastes? That would explain why chick-flicks appeal mainly to women, while action movies don't.

I'll say it again:

CITATION.

NEEDED.

You need a citation to tell you that little girls prefer to be princesses and women prefer chick flicks? Have you never met a woman before?

What about everything covered with the Disney Princesses? The dress up dolls aren't aimed at boys.
http://princess.disney.com/shop

Here's a definition of chick-flick:
"a motion picture intended to appeal especially to women".

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chick%20flick

Finally here's a study of movie preferences based on race, age, and gender. They found that women prefer romance; while men prefer action and sci-fi.
http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/sfischo/media3.html

All of them are preconceived stereotypes projected on girls (and boys with action figures and cars) to mold them into cookie cutter demographics of what boys and girls should like.

As a woman myself, I like princesses at first because that is what every other girl liked and girls should like princesses. So, as a normal girl I "liked" princesses. That slowly deviated when I got my first videogame console the N64, and I started to enjoy more "boy" things like Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Digimon, and basically said fuck that monsters are cool. Which then lead me to liking shows like Zoids, and ignoring those shit girl shows like the old MLP.
Luckily my parents never forced me back into the "girly" mold, and let me like what I like.

The consequence being that from Elementary to Middle school I was picked on for being a weirdo, a tomboy, and all manner of insults associated with girls that don't fit into the "girly" category. And it wasn't until my High school years that I started to have friends circles that weren't all guys but me.

Today, parents will have no problems letting their little girls buy dolls along with action figures if it so tastes their fancy. Seeing as how feminism has pushed hard to break that stereotype.

However bless the poor boy that dares to even so much as suggest an interest in a doll or any other "girly" product like easy bakes. The kid will be labelled a potential gay before the child even knows what the hell it means.

Your personal anecdote is inspiring, but that claim is outright debunked (for the most part) in the documentary I keep on posting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiJVJ5QRRUE

or if you want to skip the video and go right down to the nitty gritty:
http://www.math.kth.se/matstat/gru/5b1501/F/sex.pdf (Simon Baron Cohen's recent study of newborns)

Things being expressed earlier are MORE the result of biology than culture, not the other way around.

 

[Terramax]

Thing is Jim, if you look at women in products for women - whether it be make-up, hair dye products, magazines, and movies specifically targeted at women, made by women, they're all beautiful too. Fact of the matter is, women only want to see pretty women too.

Honestly, I think Jim is just redoing this same gender argument because he's nothing else to talk about on the week, and it's an easy way of rallying up anger.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Protip: if you want people to stop throwing around perceived insults, you probably should do the same.

What insult did I give?

 

[Velocir_X]

Protip: if you want people to stop throwing around perceived insults, you probably should do the same.

What insult did I give?

Calling someone cocksure is as much capable of being perceived as an insult as calling someone dense.

 

[Nicy]

Thank you so much for this video, Mr. Sterling. If the people with prominent voices and the minds to say something worthwhile continue to talk about what's wrong with our culture, eventually people will come around.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

It's not only a gender is likely to be better at writing characters in their own gender, but also more likely to want to.

Why would you assume that? We're talking about fiction - I think many writers want to explore worlds and scenarios and characters that are different to their own. Look how many people write Science Fiction or Fantasy - they aren't writing those novels to explore their own world, but to explore the unfamiliar.

Heck, isn't that what role playing and a lot of video games are about? Playing in a world that you don't experience in your day-to-day life? Most fiction isn't about the author's crappy day at the office. So, why wouldn't a male writer be more interested in writing a female character or vice-versa?

 

[Jan Smejkal]

Any time fat, ugly, or evil females are in a game, women complain that they're being mocked.

Any examples? Just, you know, because that kinda contradicts Jim's findings. Women cannot complain about ugly, fat or evil female chars if there have been virtually none. So, some examples please. And please don't come up with some oh-so-evil and at the same booby-butty sado-maso-fetish-dream female character. That doesn't meet criteria Jim (and me too BTW) is looking for. It is just a playmate goes nuts.

Males are appear in many many many many many more different roles than females. Not very often (most are shallow heroic 35-ish white unshaved dudes with short brown hair which is also annoying) but they do. That is a fact.

 

[Thanatos2k]

The husbands are also dumb, often dumber than their children. It's considered anti-woman to portray women as a fat, dumb wife in a marriage on TV. She always has to be the smart one that can insult or hit her husband when the script calls for it.

Well, anyone remember the sitcom Roseanne? Roseanne, played by Roseanne Barr, was a fat "unattractive" wife character who wasn't really that smart all things considered. (The thin sister was the smart one). Her husband? John Goodman, playing a character even fatter and dumber than her. Because even back then in something that broke traditional molds that's how it had to be.

What about characters from League of Legends?

League of Legends and Dota don't have characters, they have avatars.

 

[chozo_hybrid]

Snip,

There is one Gears of War female playable character that comes to mind here in regards to you asking where the old grey haired ones are:

Spoiler: Bernadette.

Bernadette is based off a New Zealander who is racially mixed (half Maori, half Caucasian) so she's got a bit of uniqueness there as well.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall point, I'm just saying Gears of War has a 50+ years old lady who's kicking ass with the rest of them.

Ah sweet!
Thanks for that!

That actually lightened up my mood.
Being who I am, I'm the literal bottom of the barrel when it comes to representation. Right there next to the LGBT community.
Really nice to see things like this from time to time.

No worries, like I said, I agree with your sentiment, but there is still the odd ones out there. Just wish there was more variation. Would make things interesting.

 

[Dragonbums]

Care to explain why so many women want to be a princess and so few want to be Rambo. Could it be because the vast majority of women do have similar tastes? That would explain why chick-flicks appeal mainly to women, while action movies don't.

I'll say it again:

CITATION.

NEEDED.

You need a citation to tell you that little girls prefer to be princesses and women prefer chick flicks? Have you never met a woman before?

What about everything covered with the Disney Princesses? The dress up dolls aren't aimed at boys.
http://princess.disney.com/shop

Here's a definition of chick-flick:
"a motion picture intended to appeal especially to women".

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chick%20flick

Finally here's a study of movie preferences based on race, age, and gender. They found that women prefer romance; while men prefer action and sci-fi.
http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/sfischo/media3.html

All of them are preconceived stereotypes projected on girls (and boys with action figures and cars) to mold them into cookie cutter demographics of what boys and girls should like.

As a woman myself, I like princesses at first because that is what every other girl liked and girls should like princesses. So, as a normal girl I "liked" princesses. That slowly deviated when I got my first videogame console the N64, and I started to enjoy more "boy" things like Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Digimon, and basically said fuck that monsters are cool. Which then lead me to liking shows like Zoids, and ignoring those shit girl shows like the old MLP.
Luckily my parents never forced me back into the "girly" mold, and let me like what I like.

The consequence being that from Elementary to Middle school I was picked on for being a weirdo, a tomboy, and all manner of insults associated with girls that don't fit into the "girly" category. And it wasn't until my High school years that I started to have friends circles that weren't all guys but me.

Today, parents will have no problems letting their little girls buy dolls along with action figures if it so tastes their fancy. Seeing as how feminism has pushed hard to break that stereotype.

However bless the poor boy that dares to even so much as suggest an interest in a doll or any other "girly" product like easy bakes. The kid will be labelled a potential gay before the child even knows what the hell it means.

Your personal anecdote is inspiring, but that claim is outright debunked (for the most part) in the documentary I keep on posting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiJVJ5QRRUE

or if you want to skip the video and go right down to the nitty gritty:
http://www.math.kth.se/matstat/gru/5b1501/F/sex.pdf (Simon Baron Cohen's recent study of newborns)

Things being expressed earlier are MORE the result of biology than culture, not the other way around.

So a fucking documentary has more say and validity over me- a woman, who was at some point a little girl living the stereotype of dolls and princesses because some scientist said "because biology?"

You know what? No.
That's it.
I'm not even going to continue this further.
I'm not making a "claim"
I'm telling you how I actually experience the very thing you claimed. The stupid "All girls like princesses" notion that is more often than not a result of the parents buying said toys for them early on without even so much as asking them what they want because the assume all girls like dolls.
The only way you, or this video can know for a fact which is biology and which is societal culture is if you have parents who are willing to give up their newborn baby boy and baby girl and subjugate them for the next 5-8 years to a totally controlled gender neutral environment and see what happens. In fact, they won't even have names. They will be chosen by the kid themselves.

I had to beg my parents before they finally caved in and bought me an Nintendo 64

 

[Thanatos2k]

Any time fat, ugly, or evil females are in a game, women complain that they're being mocked.

Any examples? Just, you know, because that kinda contradicts Jim's findings. Women cannot complain about ugly, fat or evil female chars if there have been virtually none. So, some examples please. And please don't come up with some oh-so-evil and at the same booby-butty sado-maso-fetish-dream female character. That doesn't meet criteria Jim (and me too BTW) is looking for. It is just a playmate goes nuts.

Males are appear in many many many many many more different roles than females. Not very often (most are shallow heroic 35-ish white unshaved dudes with short brown hair which is also annoying) but they do. That is a fact.

http://www.thegamersblog.com/fat-borderlands-2-character-has-facebook-in-an-uproar/

There's your example. Gearbox intentionally makes a fat character to inject variety and women ask "Why is she so fat? Can't you make her more normal?"

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Thing is Jim, if you look at women in products for women - whether it be make-up, hair dye products, magazines, and movies specifically targeted at women, made by women, they're all beautiful too. Fact of the matter is, women only want to see pretty women too.

Except for the women that don't. That's more the advertising industry's image of women, and how they want to shape them to consume their products. There are countless women who don't buy into the cosmetics or fashion industry's idea of how they should look.

 

[BQE]

Ladies and Gentleman, boys and girls of all ages!
I have found the answer that you seek!

Is she a female? YES
Is the protaganist or a playable character? YES
Is not conventionally attractive? YES
Is she human? YES

I'm sure you're waiting with bated breath but let me assure you this fox will fit all your criteria!
A woman who goes on a sociopathic rampage to achieve some peace and quiet and yes indeed, you play as this woman!
Let me introduce, a lady who probably needs plenty of introduction....

http://twistedmetal.wikia.com/wiki/Granny_Dread

Yes that's right. I say if Mr. Sterling can nominate a female monster from an archaic game, then Granny Dread should fit the bill perfectly then. [/spoiler]


I believe the ball is in your court.

10/10

Best comment of the year.
I literally had the best laugh I've had all year.

Good job sir/ma'am Good job

That's it folks. Sexism in the industry has been debunked.

Ahhh, such bliss.
*curtsy*

To know a keen eye exists among such ignobility is reassuring. One can only hope that others can see the wisdom in Granny Dread's honorable representation of women.

[sub]EDIT: Correction of my horrible BBcode[/sub]