Jimquisition: Videogames Are Not Movies, Get Over It
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
Interesting feature, honestly I think Jim could stand to change his style a bit, but at the same time I think he's a bit more on the money in what he's saying than other features like "Extra Credits".
Overall he's absolutly right, however his formula really prevents him from looking at the issue overall. Making statements about how tying games and movies together is going to hamper the development of the industry is fine, but that in of itself does nothing. The people that need to be called to task are the guys who are in the gaming industry right now. Simply put the reason why they are so attracted to the whole "Hollywood" image is because they want to make the big bucks, and also being in a visual medium with large budgets they want to try and play on the similarities to justify their own lavish paydays by acting like it's the same thing (or very similar) when it's not. Also, with those ballooning demands from developers the producers are left needing to recoup those development budgets (what the guys decide they should pay themselves for making a game over a couple of years), hence the demand for increasingly casual games, and things that appeal to a wide audience, movies are something that have a widespread following among the lowest human denominator and make tons of money, so it's not surprising that the producers want to tap into those similarities especially with developers themselves acting like the gaming industry is a lot bigger and more entrenched than it is, and themselves using Hollywood as an example to justify why they should be able to pay themselves that much.
Simply put, the gaming industry needs to break out of it's current course, and that means that people within the industry are going to need to tighten their belts and realize that they can't demand Hollywood-type compensation for their services, until the industry has grown substantially. Simply put the issue isn't so much about the movies, but the industry becoming too big for it's britches, and trying to justify itself through analogy.
It's important to note that when I talk about "Hollywood Paydays" I'm not talking about everyone demanding the wages of movie stars. Rather game developers demanding money on the level of grips, camera men, and FX artists and the like for their work. Of course there are doubtlessly some "idea guys" at the heads of these studios who demand lavish "star-like" payment as part of those dev budgets. On the off chance there are game developers out there with massively underpaid workers, they might want to take a look at what their bosses are demanding as their cuts from these hundred million dollar budgets.
The fact that Hollywood uses computers so much today, with CGI being used to develop everything from creatures, to backrounds, it of course leads a lot of people working with computer graphics to believe that what they are doing is on the same level, or that they could be making more money in Hollywood doing the same basic thing. From a few things I've read here and there, they definatly seem to present themselves that way, and to be honest that's based on self-deception at the very best because simply put there is a glut in the computer and information services market. A lot of people working on games who claim that they deserve this money because "they could go elsewhere and make more" need to be reality checked because they really couldn't. Even if some did, there are only so many jobs for that kind of thing (and most of them are already held). Like it or not, they are where they are because it's really their best option, and they need to start accepting that a dev team splitting up a hundred million dollars or more over a couple of years is really pretty ridiculous.
Once you start getting out of the Hollywood mentality with the devs, I think it will affect the producers, quality won't change (all the same people will still be working pretty much), and more time can be spent on focusing on the development of gaming as it's own medium rather than trying to hitch a ride on the coattails of something more established.
Either this happens, or the current mentality continues, the games industry continues to be a "second rate Hollywood" both in mind and in practice until it crashes after producing tons of lame "interactive movies" like died out at the dawn of CD Rom, and we have to wait for another resurgence to see if the next rise of an industry gets it right.
I will say at the conclusion of this increasingly off topic rant, that I think that the gaming industry DOES have the abillity to become an entertainment industry on the level of Hollywood, and given time and enough penetration it might very well be able to justify people making this kind of money at it. It's simply not there yet, as it's still growing. Movies have a much more established audience, higher circulation, and multiple avenues of making back those huge development budgets. The gaming industry isn't established the same way at the moment, and as such it can't justify paying people that much money.
Heck, I'll say it flat out, I think gaming could be bigger than Hollywood ever has a chance of being simply because with enough time and penetration, I think we could see gaming competition reach the level of pro-sports. It sounds silly until you look at how far it's gone in some nations like Korea. If you think of what an international pro-gaming market could bring to the table, along with Hollywood-level penetration of general gaming entertainment and yeah... the money to be made there is crazy. We'll never see things get there though if they wear out the golden goose by demanding too much of it bfore it's developed.
Overall he's absolutly right, however his formula really prevents him from looking at the issue overall. Making statements about how tying games and movies together is going to hamper the development of the industry is fine, but that in of itself does nothing. The people that need to be called to task are the guys who are in the gaming industry right now. Simply put the reason why they are so attracted to the whole "Hollywood" image is because they want to make the big bucks, and also being in a visual medium with large budgets they want to try and play on the similarities to justify their own lavish paydays by acting like it's the same thing (or very similar) when it's not. Also, with those ballooning demands from developers the producers are left needing to recoup those development budgets (what the guys decide they should pay themselves for making a game over a couple of years), hence the demand for increasingly casual games, and things that appeal to a wide audience, movies are something that have a widespread following among the lowest human denominator and make tons of money, so it's not surprising that the producers want to tap into those similarities especially with developers themselves acting like the gaming industry is a lot bigger and more entrenched than it is, and themselves using Hollywood as an example to justify why they should be able to pay themselves that much.
Simply put, the gaming industry needs to break out of it's current course, and that means that people within the industry are going to need to tighten their belts and realize that they can't demand Hollywood-type compensation for their services, until the industry has grown substantially. Simply put the issue isn't so much about the movies, but the industry becoming too big for it's britches, and trying to justify itself through analogy.
It's important to note that when I talk about "Hollywood Paydays" I'm not talking about everyone demanding the wages of movie stars. Rather game developers demanding money on the level of grips, camera men, and FX artists and the like for their work. Of course there are doubtlessly some "idea guys" at the heads of these studios who demand lavish "star-like" payment as part of those dev budgets. On the off chance there are game developers out there with massively underpaid workers, they might want to take a look at what their bosses are demanding as their cuts from these hundred million dollar budgets.
The fact that Hollywood uses computers so much today, with CGI being used to develop everything from creatures, to backrounds, it of course leads a lot of people working with computer graphics to believe that what they are doing is on the same level, or that they could be making more money in Hollywood doing the same basic thing. From a few things I've read here and there, they definatly seem to present themselves that way, and to be honest that's based on self-deception at the very best because simply put there is a glut in the computer and information services market. A lot of people working on games who claim that they deserve this money because "they could go elsewhere and make more" need to be reality checked because they really couldn't. Even if some did, there are only so many jobs for that kind of thing (and most of them are already held). Like it or not, they are where they are because it's really their best option, and they need to start accepting that a dev team splitting up a hundred million dollars or more over a couple of years is really pretty ridiculous.
Once you start getting out of the Hollywood mentality with the devs, I think it will affect the producers, quality won't change (all the same people will still be working pretty much), and more time can be spent on focusing on the development of gaming as it's own medium rather than trying to hitch a ride on the coattails of something more established.
Either this happens, or the current mentality continues, the games industry continues to be a "second rate Hollywood" both in mind and in practice until it crashes after producing tons of lame "interactive movies" like died out at the dawn of CD Rom, and we have to wait for another resurgence to see if the next rise of an industry gets it right.
I will say at the conclusion of this increasingly off topic rant, that I think that the gaming industry DOES have the abillity to become an entertainment industry on the level of Hollywood, and given time and enough penetration it might very well be able to justify people making this kind of money at it. It's simply not there yet, as it's still growing. Movies have a much more established audience, higher circulation, and multiple avenues of making back those huge development budgets. The gaming industry isn't established the same way at the moment, and as such it can't justify paying people that much money.
Heck, I'll say it flat out, I think gaming could be bigger than Hollywood ever has a chance of being simply because with enough time and penetration, I think we could see gaming competition reach the level of pro-sports. It sounds silly until you look at how far it's gone in some nations like Korea. If you think of what an international pro-gaming market could bring to the table, along with Hollywood-level penetration of general gaming entertainment and yeah... the money to be made there is crazy. We'll never see things get there though if they wear out the golden goose by demanding too much of it bfore it's developed.
Christ, some of you won't even give Jim a second chance. Maybe Jim should have had blond hair, a short skirt and a top 5 list to gain your instant approval.
(not hating on Lisa Foiles, just trying to make a point)
(not hating on Lisa Foiles, just trying to make a point)
some decent points, but if you wanted to create a bigger shitstorm, replace the word movies with art
If he has more talent as a writer, either he needs a better face for his videos, or we are a bunch of philistines that just can't appreciate it, because I see no value in any of this. Yahtzee has a stellar format, an entertaining persona, and he has background as a game developer. Extra Credits all have work in the professional world of animation or game development, and fill their videos with insight into the industry. MovieBob compensates for what are essentially article posts by using images to demonstrate his point. Pretension or tired formulas you may call them, but their presentation is top quality, and that's the quality we've come to expect on this website. This guy doesn't make the cut.VenusInFurs said:
Any time this site picks up a bad show, it means one good show won't get its chance. We already have enough commentary blocks, why not throw in more narrative based shows to balance it out? Those are always quite well received on this site.oneshotfinchy said:
Decent soft counter to the Extra Credits guys.
He's completely right that games have to work to their unique strength of course, that being their interactivity.
If you want a game that "teaches" or "encourages debate", or whatever other phrase you want to use, then you should do that with its mechanics. How and why it lets you do the things it does and doesn't the things it doesn't.
If you use story then a book could do it better.
If you use visuals, and sounds, a film could do it better.
Games are unique in their interactivity, they must use it.
Arsing difficult of course, it being pioneering territory and all that. I'll leave it up to the genius level people to do it.
He's completely right that games have to work to their unique strength of course, that being their interactivity.
If you want a game that "teaches" or "encourages debate", or whatever other phrase you want to use, then you should do that with its mechanics. How and why it lets you do the things it does and doesn't the things it doesn't.
If you use story then a book could do it better.
If you use visuals, and sounds, a film could do it better.
Games are unique in their interactivity, they must use it.
Arsing difficult of course, it being pioneering territory and all that. I'll leave it up to the genius level people to do it.
Is it me or did he just repeat the sentence "video games are not movies" with different phrasing for about five minutes?
Game culture commentating only works when you have INTERESTING FACTS and stories to back up the point.
Game culture commentating only works when you have INTERESTING FACTS and stories to back up the point.
Boom, that's right on the money! I know it would be impossibly impractical but it would be AWESOME to have the entire Escapist team in a on-topic video, perhaps something like 'The Future for Escapist magazine' or whatever. Absolute mayhem. Heck, even if they put a silly group-photo up that would be cool.Azure-Supernova said:
OT: Racking my brain to think what differentiates this from other rant/criticism videos like those splattered across Youtube - well, it takes a sort of "stand-up-comedy-meets-axe-to-grind" approach (weird, jolly music all the way through) and if I had to say what it's unique 'angle' was, it seems to be the humour (the chip-in game clips were funny and well-chosen). Can't decide based solely on this first video (the poor guy seems to present it with an 'audition enthusiasm') whether it's contributing anything unique so will simply keep watching for now.