Helmholtz Watson said:
Again, I'm not asking for women's issues to be brought up, I'm asking for the focus to be expanded to men's issues as well. Instead of focusing on the gender issues of one group, there should be a focus on the issues of both groups.
And there are times and places for examining mens' issues. This is not one of them. Or would you run into the real-life discussion of women discussing violence against women to shout out MEN ARE ASSAULTED TOO?
A.)Why not? She has more than enough money to do so. B.)If she is for gender equality and having there being accurate and fair representations of gender in video games, then yeah she does. C.)I have no intention of silencing anybody no matter how many times you would like to claim otherwise. Again, when talking about gender issues, it should be about both genders.
A.) You've donated $100 to a womens' shelter, but I won't believe you're actually concerned about gender issues until you donate $100 to a mens' rights program, too! What a ludicrous argument that is.
B.) No, she doesn't. She is not talking about both genders in video games. She is talking about *women in video games.* Saying that she's obligated to talk about men too is the height of privilege.
C.) Regardless of your intent, that's how it comes off. You are derailing the topic to focus it on men, when the entire point is to be focused on women for once.
Did you even read what I linked?
I've listened, and you haven't really contributed much besides telling me how gender equality groups (feminist) should tackle the poor representation of gender in video games by focusing on women's issues while neglecting and passing the burden of men's issues onto others.
Because women are MUCH more poorly represented in videogames than men. Yes, there are harmful tropes for men, too. But generally, they're HEROIC tropes (and also grounded in the sexism against female characters) - yes, the man is expected to be a stone-cold protector who gives his life, but A.) he has actual AGENCY and is not an object that happens to talk, B.) it's that way because women are portrayed as weak, and needing to be protected/rescued.
Okay, here's the thing. You seem like an overall decent guy. You're being ridiculously stubborn and closed-minded, but I don't think you're an asshole.
You remind me of myself a few years ago. I furiously denied the existence of rape culture. I defended our right to tell rape jokes, because hey, it's just humor. I interrupted womens' studies/feminist discussions to try and refocus them on men.
Did I do any of that maliciously? No. Was it intentionally to hurt others? No.
But once you actually start to see the sexism and rape culture permeating our society, you can't unsee it. And once you've seen how you - and me - have unknowingly perpetuated it, supported it, and made the women important to us feel marginalized
without fucking knowing, you feel sick.
And I wish I had had somebody drill this into my fucking head four years ago, or ten years ago. Because maybe then I wouldn't have done all that shit.
All this stuff? This is how you become a better human being in this era. Stop ignoring it, or you are going to regret it all the more when you finally understand.
Blablahb said:
And do you have any idea how rude and offensive it is to accuse me of supporting rape through my actions while you know nothing about me? Keep it decent. You're wrong, and defending a very far fetched mythology against which there is plenty to say. Accusing others of being horrid criminals and go all arrogant and 'educate yourself' is not the way.
From what I've read of your "arguments" here, I most certainly know enough about you to judge that you are, in fact, supporting rape culture.
Note that I am not accusing you of being a rapist. I am not accusing you of being a criminal. I am accusing you of perpetuating a culture that unintentionally fosters violence against women. Which you are doing.
You know what that tells me? That rape has little to do with gender per se, but everything with sexual frustration and status.
Rape is a violent crime about dominance. It is very rarely, if ever, about sex.
So go ahead, you respond to that tell me on what the myth of 'rape culture' is based. You give me examples of people who were just sitting on the couch one day being male, and suddenly thought 'yeah, I'm real manly and stuff, let's go rape someone'. Criminology is pretty far in that regard, so there's bound to be research into it.
Okay, so. You... don't get rape culture. At all. You honestly do not understand what we're arguing here, if that's what you think "rape culture" means. The vast majority of men who perpetuate rape culture will never commit a rape; that's besides the point.
But that's always the missing link in feminism is it not? Really quality research, the kind that establishes causality of data of a quality to generalise on. It's always wild speculation and maybe a randomly selected anecdote with no causal connection.
lol.
I know, I'm married to one, talk to a few. What they all share is a disgust for outspoken feminists who aren't doing much besides being counterproductive.
Fact remains however that none of the feminist movement is taking on religion, while that is still the main source of preaching that women are supposedly inferior, while at the same time we're seeing ridiculous mythological speculation about conspiracies by men in creating things like a 'rape culture' or 'supporting rape'.
Even if people who argue that agenda grow a brain and start specifying such wild guesses to specific subcultures instead of just applying them to all men and some women, they'll still be mopping up water while the tap's still running because whatever they preach against it, priests and church elders undo by spreading their doctrines and particularly taboos.
Organized religion is at the very heart of the patriarchy. See also: Orthodox Judiasm teaching that a menstruating woman is unclean; Catholicism being the driving force against womens' reproductive rights; Sharia law; etc.
So yes, feminists do fucking speak out about it.
RT-Medic-with-shotgun said:
As to the conspiracy idea of hers, that's it. She doesn't outright say it but that's her intent. To reinforce the idea that there are conspiracies against women being preformed by pop-culture & popular media. Point being they don't exist.
And how is it not? Someone comes forward(or waits until completion) with a project involving gaming with intent to study part of it impartially. How is that not an attack? We view it as an attack when someone sets out with the singular goal to prove that gaming promotes childhood violence we view that as an attack. The single goal to prove gaming as harmful in some way & that they have no intent of being impartial in the slightest. We view that as an attack so why not here? Sarkeesian wants to portray gaming negatively for the purpose of proving a point which she will do impartially(because she wants an impartial outcome) but we don't view it as an attack?
What? She is not saying that there is an intentional conspiracy. That has never been her point. THERE IS A SET OF CULTURAL NORMS AND VALUES THAT CONTRIBUTES TO THIS INNATE SEXISM. The only way to combat it is to point out where people are being sexist and don't even fucking realize it, WHICH IS MOST OF THEM. Holy shit, how are you misunderstanding something so simple?
And that, again, is the point of the whole thing she's doing. She's not saying, "BioWare is terrible because blah blah," she's saying, "This particular character falls into these particular tropes, WOULDN'T IT BE AWESOME IF WE COULD GET CHARACTERS WHO DON'T?" By examining the problems in the medium, Sarkeesian is actually trying to *advance* gaming, not attack it. The ideal end result? Games that star strong, well-rounded female characters that aren't objectified. HOW IS THIS A BAD THING?
Not sure i follow the reasoning you do. Its not worry that this 'no girls allowed' clubhouse will die(spoiler it is dead)
All you have to do is look at this thread to see how dead wrong you are.
bringer of illumination said:
Actually no, no it fucking isn't.
This sort of shit happens ALL the god damn time, and it isn't reported on because it isn't fucking news. Do you have any idea how easy these things are to organize? (And the degree of "organisation" in this particular case is debatable.
This article is OBVIOUS as veiled advertisement for the kickstarter in question, the writer want to plug this horseshit, and the easiest way was to write about the backlash.
It's a load of shit and whoever approved it should be ashamed of them selves.
Welllll, I've seen at least four other major gaming sites besides the Escapist report on it so, I think that yeah, it actually is pretty fucking newsworthy.
It is an ugly mirror to the misogynist side of videogaming, particularly so soon after the Hitman controversy and now the Tomb Raider rape controversy. It's time to do some navel gazing as a subculture and industry. So... yeah. Newsworthy.
If I were the one who approved this post I would be fucking proud as hell, not ashamed.
