Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

[wetnap]

The obvious problem is her thought is half baked. Why are womens magazines filled with attractive women, even womens fashion/fitness or whatever magazines/media out there, because people like looking at attractive people. So is this clearly a case for a quota of fat and ugly people in media? Of course not, it is the way it is because that is what people actually want. Feminists like her want to go against human nature, based on their particular preferences. We need more pudgy plain female protagonists why? Because she said so, not for any other reason.

But that's not her argument, she's arguing that female characters in media be important to the plot and three dimensional, as opposed to a series of generic stereotypes. She hasn't said women shouldn't be attractive or fit, just that they should be more than those two attributes. If a female character is just a macguffin for the male hero to rescue she would be just as poor a character as if the genders were reversed, meaning that ultimately, the stereotype hurts the quality of the story regardless of whether it's expected or not.

You're arguing media should be idealized, she's arguing the way women are idealized in the media is usually sexist, which are two different things. Now having watched her videos, I can say that yes - she backs them up with facts and examples, clearly demonstrating the validity of her argument. You haven't done so, nor have you proved any of her points wrong, in fact you're not even arguing the same topic as her.

No its clear from the angle she's taking that she simply misses the point entirely, she is just implicitly insisting female characters have to fit a different mold that fits her personal prejudices. Its a different little ghetto where a character has to fit this or that because it has become little more than a propaganda tool. Furthermore her criticisms as i've already said show she doesn't understand gaming, gaming is about the game play mechanic, the character is just gloss over this. She misses the entire point to fixate on what she can apply her feminist dogma onto. In the end she is complaining just to complain.

Tropes are standard, you play the heros journey, not the journey of someone who ends up working at walmart at 65, or someone working the mines digging coal until you die. To complain about tropes from a feminist perspective is to just argue for the sake of it, because you have a chip on your shoulder.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I wish people would just ignore this idiot until she sinks back into obscurity. $100,000 to write a blog? I'm sure she needs it. Not like thousands of others do it for free- OH WAIT.

Give your money to a women's shelter or help a rape crisis hotline--these will actually help people. Don't pay a random person on the net money to do something she should do for free.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Well the problem with this is that when it does inevitably become profitable to change such a stereotype it will just be replaced by another one.

There out to make money right now the male kill machine / spunky damsel is profitable. when the reverse hits itl just be the strong woman stereotype.

which is not so bad i dont have a problem with them exploiting the male expectation that i be an infinitely capable jason statham.(insert female corolary to jason statham here) I just know that some people will be pissed when there deep sincere female character is traded for a yet again 2 dimensional one.

albeit one that kicks ass.

a little ditty I made up...

The man dont care if your straight or gay or black or white as long as he gets that money.

Also you people are going about it wrong if you want these characters. make a damn videogame yourself. if you have such fervor about it channel that energy into making what it is that you envision.

or ask the indie crowd to do it there always the first innovators. Why people ask EA to do this Ive no clue they will only follow behind what the indie guys break there backs for.

The right way to do this." Hi im a big fan of your work and i was wondering if an interesting female lead would be considered as a spark for your next project"

shows support, positive atitude which engages thought, thought and creativity create art.

If you do this however...

Listen your last game was shit! all you do is promote rape culture and look at that male to female ratio! I counted it at 63/37 in favor of MEN!!!"

Thinks your a *****, deletes your email, negative emotion, creativity is stifled until anger passes.

 

[rbstewart7263]

If you think about it shes exploiting two common trends at the moment.

The current trend in gaming to support kickstarters. anything gaming/kickstarter related just screams of creative good and people want that.

feminism: Lets face it whether you want to or not. Feminists have the passion of a howler monkey to throw money at things that have "feminism"on it.

So shes pulling money on two fronts. smart move.

 

[tehweave]

Five things.

1. It's youtube commenters. They're 13-17 year old boys who have never touched a boob before. It's the same commenters who drastically hated the male shepherd sex scene from Mass Effect 3.

2. It looks like she got her project funded, so... Good.

3. She's completely right. Video games are overly sexist.

And two counters:

1. This isn't just a problem with games, its a problem with media in general. See also: Hollywood and any commercial on a major network dealing with: food, laundry, yogurt, beer, cars, and any kind of yardwork tool or garage tool.

2. Why does she need money for a video blog series? Not to agree with the third guy you quoted, but... What does that money go towards?

 

[nasteypenguin]

I think that the problem with casting women in traditionally manly roles is that this is what keeps happening. When I made my two categories, the problem with having women in those categories isn't because women shouldn't be sexy or tough, it's because most female characters fit those roles. And when these roles become very common tropes you start to realise there must be a larger societal reason for these tropes being common (remembering that tropes are tropes because they are easy to identify with and understand, and thus need little explanation).

Which is why I see the problem, when you have a world where the stereotypical depictions of women are either, "Trying to be a man" or "Pleasing to men" then you see there must be something fucked up somewhere if those are recognised by society as easy to understand tropes.

However, as you clearly point out, sexism isn't the only reason. These stereotypical ideas are really easy to write, partly because they're tropes, but also because "emotionless badass" and "air-headed eye candy" are just easy to write parts. It's part of a bigger problem of a cycle that perpetuates tropes, laziness and sexism.

Alright, I may have left this too long, but the thread still seems to be alive and I've had some time to think about it.

The concern I have with your vision of the problem is that the point of women being depicted as a "man" is actually perpetuating the sexist notion which your are outlining as a problem.

The "manly" ideal exists because of sexism; back in neolithic times when sexism was necessary men needed to embody the strong, burly and capable physical and mental attributes to protect women who's body sacrificed a portion of this to be able of childbirth and raising. Now that notion is obsolete; what separates us from animals is that we have advanced to such a point that gender roles are no longer necessary.
"Manliness" itself therefore is only a group of human attributes that have been assigned a male role because of an obsolete necessity. "Manly" ideals being only for men no longer exists outside of sexist opinions.

However, when you classify manliness as a trope, what I think you are actually doing is perpetuating this sexist ideology that relating these types of human attributes with women is a negative thing. Nowadays women being "manly" should only be as much a trope as any other kinds of character personality possible.

Your point isn't lost on me however, I realise a lot of the time writing seems to define a female character using only this "manly" ideal and nothing else. I agree this can be overtly sexist because of a writer creating it with the notion that equality must mean women want to act like men*.

Women being characterised as this "manly" ideal however is not sexist in and of itself; "manliness" does not exist anymore and we should not perpetuate it by defining it.


*have been idealised to - the sentence sounded better without this, but I want to clarify the distinction

 

[Eamar]

Here's a hint: consider how gamers are represented in wider media. When we're shown on the news, in (non-gaming) magazines or TV shows or (non-games industry funded) studies we're fat, spotty, basement-dwelling virgins who live with our mothers. Or we're mass-murderers waiting to happen. Crazy psychos honing our shooting skills on CoD or Gears of War or Halo, waiting for the day when we will crack and shoot up our schools. Or we're hilariously socially awkward manchildren. We're "crazies", as you put it.These things are true of a tiny minority of people who play games

Now apply that same logic to feminism (and pretty much any group you find unfavourably presented in mainstream media).

That example is more true than you think, because I've never seen any such demonizing, except in exceptionally crappy sensationalistic media, and even they only silently imply it. The only place I've ever seriously seen crap like "Play this game and [awfull stuff] will happen to you" was very extremist Christians who warned for demonic possession from games that contain magic or paganist themes.

So if we apply that to feminism, you're right we get a perfect parabel: A tiny minority think gamers are crazy, many gamers get worked up about the stereotype, and in the meantime, there isn't really any real problem.

Much in the same way feminists cry oppression, a tiny minority of religious extremists indeed opress women, but in reality there's not really any problem going on because egalitarianism has become deeply rooted in society.

I have no idea how you managed to twist that, but fine. Think what you want. You're clearly only interested in spouting your own theory, which you're quite entitled to do.

But tell me: I'm a feminist. According to your rules I must be a "crazy." Find evidence of this: go!

 

[Hollyday]

I wish people would just ignore this idiot until she sinks back into obscurity. $100,000 to write a blog? I'm sure she needs it. Not like thousands of others do it for free- OH WAIT.

Give your money to a women's shelter or help a rape crisis hotline--these will actually help people. Don't pay a random person on the net money to do something she should do for free.

I've spent the last few days watching some of her videos. She doesn't seem like an idiot to me. Have you watched any of them? They are all well researched and she comes across as a really clever, clued-up pop-culture critic.

She didn't ask for $100,000, she asked for $6,000. Her site has no advertising so it doesn't generate revenue in the way others do. If you want to give money to a charity instead, then please do, but what I do with my money is none of your concern. I should probably give all my money to charity instead of spending it on steam but hey.

Really looking forward to her video series. Hope she adds a new episode about the unbelievable backlash she's gotten.

EDIT: also, giving money to women's shelters is essential to treating the symptoms, but it doesn't fight the source of the problem. What does fight the source? education. This woman's videos are used in schools to highlight gender stereotypes. Personally I think that's pretty worthwhile.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I wish people would just ignore this idiot until she sinks back into obscurity. $100,000 to write a blog? I'm sure she needs it. Not like thousands of others do it for free- OH WAIT.

Give your money to a women's shelter or help a rape crisis hotline--these will actually help people. Don't pay a random person on the net money to do something she should do for free.

I've spent the last few days watching some of her videos. She doesn't seem like an idiot to me. Have you watched any of them? They are all well researched and she comes across as a really clever, clued-up pop-culture critic.

She didn't ask for $100,000, she asked for $6,000. Her site has no advertising so it doesn't generate revenue in the way others do. If you want to give money to a charity instead, then please do, but what I do with my money is none of your concern. I should probably give all my money to charity instead of spending it on steam but hey.

Really looking forward to her video series. Hope she adds a new episode about the unbelievable backlash she's gotten.

EDIT: also, giving money to women's shelters is essential to treating the symptoms, but it doesn't fight the source of the problem. What does fight the source? education. This woman's videos are used in schools to highlight gender stereotypes. Personally I think that's pretty worthwhile.

The point is, she doesn't need any money to do this and thousands of people already do exactly what she's trying to do--for free, even.

She will accomplish nothing. When this all blows over and everyone goes back to forgetting about her, nothing will have changed. More people than I can count have started blogs with noble goals and almost all of them never achieve a single thing. At most, people already interested in sexism see her videos and she is preaching to the choir. No one, and I mean no one who doesn't already care about her topics will go looking for them and have a revelation upon seeing them.

Yeah, it's shit. It's depressing. It's defeatist. It's also reality.

If people want to actually help real women and do something that will not only save lives, but contribute to real change, like I said, give your money to rape crisis centers, donate to women's shelters, buy food and clothing to give--anything that will actually have an affect.

Her blogs and her videos will be forgotten about in time, just like every single other blog in the world. They come and go. No one cares. Real women can be helped right now with that $100,000. It could have done a lot. Instead, people gave their money to her to cash in on their "I'm helping a cause!" feelings and changed nothing.

 

[Kahunaburger]

At most, people already interested in sexism see her videos and she is preaching to the choir. No one, and I mean no one who doesn't already care about her topics will go looking for them and have a revelation upon seeing them.

Well, you know, except for:

What does fight the source? education. This woman's videos are used in schools to highlight gender stereotypes. Personally I think that's pretty worthwhile.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

At most, people already interested in sexism see her videos and she is preaching to the choir. No one, and I mean no one who doesn't already care about her topics will go looking for them and have a revelation upon seeing them.

Well, you know, except for:

What does fight the source? education. This woman's videos are used in schools to highlight gender stereotypes. Personally I think that's pretty worthwhile.

And her video is going to change anything? Someone who is sexist is going to see it and stop? A game developer is going to see it and not keep wanting to print money?

That $100,000 is going to be spent on her bills and entertainment. Recording software (which she already has) - free. Editing software (which she already has) - free. Research - free. Hosting a website - cents a day. She won't spend anywhere even close to $100,000 on her blog. It's all going straight into her pocket.

Makes me sick. 100K for doing what countless others do for free every single day.

 

[Eamar]

But tell me: I'm a feminist. According to your rules I must be a "crazy." Find evidence of this: go!

Well, for one thing you cannot accept what I say, while a big missing link is any evidence on your part.

How ironic. You have never asked me to prove anything about feminist theory, all I've tried to do is show you that not all feminists are crazy and have suggested why it might be that people might be under the impression that we are. And you wouldn't listen.

Which would be fairly hypocritical, because if I came in yelling fire and murder about supposed discrimination which you don't know to exist, you'd like me to at least show some indications of it actually happening before you jump on any bandwagons. I do the same and you cry I'm not interested in hearing it.

I'm not interested in hearing preconceived myths about supposed conspiracies to oppress women. I'll also tell you why: The reason for those is to dismiss any component of own choice and inevitability, just because that's uncomfortable for the author, and it has nothing to do with finding out what is true and correct.

I'm always open to hearing factual information, just don't blame me for not going along in some silly mythology without any proof.


On the topic of feminist mythology, do you know what's a fun topic to read about with feminists? Female rape fantasies. There's a pretty sharp divide in feminist and psychological litature, with the feminists obviously going for some fairy tale about a conspiracy of men have conditioned women to be used to rape and even fantasize about it, while the actual scientific literature weighs all sorts of explanations carefully.

For instance here:
http://www.clinica.divisionescolpsic.org/articulos-docs/Womens_Erotic_Rape.pdf

Note how they dismiss the feminist conspiracy theory. Review of said feminist book they refer to shows the empirical quality of it is questionable at best. It's bound together from baseless assumptions.

Now once again, show me where I have claimed that any "conspiracy to oppress women" exists. Also, if you were to go through my old posts you'd find that I have addressed the "rape fantasy" issue pretty recently. And I, as a feminist agreed with what you just said. (if you're interested: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.377692-Porn-and-the-Art-of-Rape?page=3#14743885
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.377692-Porn-and-the-Art-of-Rape?page=4#14744562 )

What you have just done is pin all your preconceptions about feminists and what they believe on to me because I said I was one. That's understandable, but really not fair. Check out this list of different feminist movements, some of which have massively different opinions and ideologies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movements_and_ideologies .Can you not accept that there might be some of us out there that aren't "crazies"?

 

[Clearing the Eye]

And her video is going to change anything? Someone who is sexist is going to see it and stop? A game developer is going to see it and not keep wanting to print money?

That $100,000 is going to be spent on her bills and entertainment. Recording software (which she already has) - free. Editing software (which she already has) - free. Research - free. Hosting a website - cents a day. She won't spend anywhere even close to $100,000 on her blog. It's all going straight into her pocket.

Makes me sick. 100K for doing what countless others do for free every single day.

"Earlier this year, I was invited to speak about developing female characters in video games at the BUNGiE offices in Bellevue, WA (you probably know BUNGiE as the developers of the Halo series). It was a great experience engaging with creators and developers in the gaming industry so I decided it?s time to dedicate an entire series to female characters in video games."

Ehm... it seems she has a more recognizeable voice in the gaming industry than you give her credit to.

The more I read from you the more I get the idea that you have literally no clue about her work.

Because Bungie was well known for their sexism? Preaching to the choir sure is productive.

 

[Eamar]

How ironic. You have never asked me to prove anything about feminist theory, all I've tried to do is show you that not all feminists are crazy and have suggested why it might be that people might be under the impression that we are. And you wouldn't listen.

Since you basically argued 'all those thousands of crazies do not exist, because I am feminism incarnate', but then slightly less theatrically worded, it shouldn't have been surprising I ignored it.

Not what I said. Not in any way. I fully accept that there are a lot of crazy feminists out there who give the rest of us a bad name. The list I linked you to included a fair number of "crazy" movements (radical and separatist feminism being perhaps the most extreme). It would be wrong of me to deny that they are not or have not been part of feminism. All I've been trying to say is that not all feminists are like that, and the the majority are reasonable. The extremists are the vocal minority that colours everyone's view of the whole movement. I am sure you know some reasonable feminists, they likely just don't shout about it. You may not even know they're feminists, because they don't fit your idea of what a feminist is.

As for the point, I've been arguing against feminist mythology for most of this discussion, for instance the myth of creating a 'rape culture', and already being flamed by disgusting feminists without any decency calling me a rape supporter without any grounds other than hating my opinion. If you don't disagree with that idea being a myth, then why argue against it to begin with?

Where did I argue with you (or anyone in this thread) about rape culture? I stayed well out of it.

If the myth of 'rape culture' exists as a feminist myth, my assertion of why feminism is failing stands. You claimed feminism is something different, so in the context you'd obviously need to defend the mythology that belongs with it, otherwise there's no point in responding. My point is that feminism is controlled by crazies who are the most prominent ones. As long as nobody can deny their existance or influence (an impossible burden of evidence, obviously), the assertation will stand.

One can't just pull the feminist equivalent of 'Bin Laden is not a Muslim' and expect that to work.

Why the hell not? Why can't I say "there are many types of feminism, not all of which I agree with and the majority of which are not as objectionable as the ones the media likes to focus on"? What's wrong with that?

 

[Hollyday]

That $100,000 is going to be spent on her bills and entertainment. Recording software (which she already has) - free. Editing software (which she already has) - free. Research - free. Hosting a website - cents a day. She won't spend anywhere even close to $100,000 on her blog. It's all going straight into her pocket.

Makes me sick. 100K for doing what countless others do for free every single day.

Wow - do you have a direct link to the inner workings of Anita Sarkeesian's mind? That's amazing! What's she thinking right now?

How do we know what she's going to spend the money on? The kickstarter hasn't finished yet, so I guess when it does she'll announce what all the extra cash will be put towards.

Are those people who are 'doing it for free' getting into schools, getting audiences with game developers, having their videos feature as part of the syllabus on uni courses? No, not often. Her videos cost money because they have high production values (which they need in order to be used in a meaningful way in the classroom).

I think my main problem with your point is that people, who have all the facts given to them, have given her money of their own free will. She hasn't been given a government grant to do this, she isn't taking money that's been earmarked for other projects. What would I have done with the couple of dollars I gave to her project otherwise - I'd have spent it on mars bars probably. She had the guts to advertise her project and ask for help from people. If any of the people 'doing it for free' want to do that to then they can. Why would that be wrong?