Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

[Clearing the Eye]

I'm just saying that a one-sided diatribe against the treatment of women in video games serves no good purpose, so while I wholeheartedly disagree with their tone and word choice, I share a negative view of this women who seems intent to counter sexism with more sexism.

So tell me what 'point' I'm missing?

I'm not seeing anything in her demeanor or language that impiles her series is going to be 'this is bad and you should feel bad', more 'here's some things you may not have thought of I hope to educate you about'

She's not here to tell you off or demonise you, she's here to give you new ideas and new ways of looking at things. its not 'STOP DOING THIS!', its 'maybe you could try this?'

Because whenever women point out that they are being mistreated in pop culture or marginalized in society at all, that is a personal attack against me and my manhood. That's me, specifically, by the way. So I have to fight back. For my rights.

There is a joke to make there. Something about "You gotta fight! For your rights! To maaaaaaanly!" But better. 'Cause I suck at jokes.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I'm just saying that a one-sided diatribe against the treatment of women in video games serves no good purpose, so while I wholeheartedly disagree with their tone and word choice, I share a negative view of this women who seems intent to counter sexism with more sexism.

So tell me what 'point' I'm missing?

I'm not seeing anything in her demeanor or language that impiles her series is going to be 'this is bad and you should feel bad', more 'here's some things you may not have thought of I hope to educate you about'

She's not here to tell you off or demonise you, she's here to give you new ideas and new ways of looking at things. its not 'STOP DOING THIS!', its 'maybe you could try this?'

Because whenever women point out that they are being mistreated in pop culture or marginalized in society at all, that is a personal attack against me and my manhood. That's me, specifically, by the way. So I have to fight back. For my rights.

YOU GOTTA FIGHT! FOR YOUR RIGHT! TO PARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTY! Sorry. Couldn't resist.

o.o

*looks at your post*

*looks at my post*

Get out of my head!

 

[MrMan999]

I'm just saying that a one-sided diatribe against the treatment of women in video games serves no good purpose, so while I wholeheartedly disagree with their tone and word choice, I share a negative view of this women who seems intent to counter sexism with more sexism.

So tell me what 'point' I'm missing?

I'm not seeing anything in her demeanor or language that impiles her series is going to be 'this is bad and you should feel bad', more 'here's some things you may not have thought of I hope to educate you about'

She's not here to tell you off or demonise you, she's here to give you new ideas and new ways of looking at things. its not 'STOP DOING THIS!', its 'maybe you could try this?'

Because whenever women point out that they are being mistreated in pop culture or marginalized in society at all, that is a personal attack against me and my manhood. That's me, specifically, by the way. So I have to fight back. For my rights.

YOU GOTTA FIGHT! FOR YOUR RIGHT! TO PARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTY! Sorry. Couldn't resist.

o.o

*looks at your post*

*looks at my post*

Get out of my head!

I love hiveminds.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

Speaking of which, has anyone ever written about the stereotypes male characters get forced into? They're equally rooted in traditional gender stereotypes. Some say that it's okay because their qualities are "positive", but I think they're actually just as harmful to structure an identity around as their female equivalents (in fact, why do we consider these positive traits? Why are we so down on the traits traditionally considered feminine?). Actually, they might be more directly harmful, because the stereotypical male identity revolves around personal sacrifice, the denial of one's own pain and emotions, and violence.

I'm sorry, just so I'm clear, is what you're saying here that male characters have it just as bad because they are always depicted as selfless heroes who, regardless of their personal struggles, work for the greater good and save the day? Are you really saying that's just as bad as female characters, who typically serve as either window dressing or victims, or both?

I don't know about "equally bad". I do not know of a scale to measure an issue like this, I'm not sure exactly what "bad" is in this context (bad writing? bad for people's self-image? encouraging bad behaviors?). I'm not even sure if there's any real meaning to measuring "bad" in this situation (it isn't concrete in the way the wage gap or criminal sentencing patterns are, after all) or if what we're looking at are really two separate issues at all.

I would, however, argue that the "selfless hero" persona you describe exists as part of a traditional male identity in which self-worth is defined solely by utility to others. I think that this idea encourages harmful behavior in men, including behaviors which are also harmful to women, and represents a real barrier to self actualization. I also think that the fact that our society sees these traditionally masculine traits as "positive" while looking down on traditionally female traits (which include a lot of things I would like to see male characters display more of) is just another part of the problem.

It doesn't strike you a perhaps reaching a bit far to say that males always being portrayed a selfless heroes who rise to the occasion and bail other people out, at great personal risk, through violent means or not, is a negative stereotype? That depicting rampant altruism actually hurts the male identity?

That's like saying "Depicting men as always being charitable has a negative effect, because it reduces my ability to determine whether or not I want to be charitable." I think you may be reaching; more to the point, I think this may be the most tortured example of a 'positive stereotype that's actually negative' I've ever seen. You learn something new every day.

I said it could be harmful, not that it was necessarily a negative stereotype. It reinforces the idea that "being a man" means always putting aside your own problems and hiding your vulnerabilities for the sake of others. That's not a healthy thing to build an identity around. I certainly think it's an image which contributes to the way any sign of "weakness" is demonized.

If you want negative stereotypes of men in video games, I would point you to the grunting, steroid fueled caricatures defined entirely by their rage (the only emotion they ever display) and able to interact with the world around them only by means of violence. I don't think I need to tell you how prevalent those are in games, and I don't think I need to spell out how harmful presenting these psychotic non-characters as idealized images of masculinity is for everyone.

Are men always depicted as charitable? I really do not see that as being the case. In any event, wouldn't that example be the same as people claiming that all women are nurturing or kind (and all the other bits of pedestalization the romantics love shoving down our throats)? Don't we say that those things are harmful to women? Why would the same thing not be equally harmful if done to men?

Once again, I am not trying to engage in one-upsmanship or to silence anyone talking about the negative portrayals of women in games (which are many and varied). I just think this might be something we should also be talking about, and I am pointing out that I do not see people doing that.

 

[PirateRose]

The problem is video games tend to be set up in a negative white male fantasy world because that is the audience that has dominated till recent years. Which means games have super macho, tough white male leads and a bunch of women(mostly white) fitting into limited male sexual fantasies. Or the women are just generally what men want women to be like(they never poop) as opposed to what women really are(capable of pooping and peeing in the toilet at the same time).

The video game audiences though is changing, it's changing quickly because there is a increasing number of various people becoming interested. Other races, women, and homosexuals.

The fans demand for male homosexual relationships instead of just lesbian relationships in Mass Effect 3 shows this. Though the fact it's incredibly hard to play a straight female Shepard in ME3 stepped the game into another wrong direction.

The response to the Hitman trailer shows a change in the audience, the response isn't coming from the usual news sources trying to claim video games are ruining society. It came from the gaming audience.

Then you have non-white male lead faces in Prototype 2 and in Assassins Creed III. Then in Assassins Creed liberation, a black female protagonist(let's just hope she's not a part time prostitute or something).

The feminist frequency chick is just aiming at one problem when the whole game industry has social issues that everyone wants to get rid of.

However, I am enjoying the fact she's brought on the attention of so many jerks who would like nothing to change. One of those comments said that men play video games to escape the real world, they don't need political correct BS in them to remind them of the real world.

Well sweetheart, I want to play video games to escape the real world too. I don't want to be reminded that men think I'm weak, defenseless, and stupid, or a sex toy.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Speaking of which, has anyone ever written about the stereotypes male characters get forced into?

I know FF has definitely touched on this, and there's a pretty significant body of scholarly work on the subject.

Really? Which video? I just went through what I'm pretty sure is her whole archive and don't remember her specifically mentioning anything. I must have missed one.

I'm pretty sure it comes up in the Lego one, for instance - basically she's not a fan of the way the portrayal of male characters valorizes violence, or the way men are discouraged from showing emotions, etc.

I was really asking more specifically about video games. I've certainly read quite a few scholarly pieces on male characters in literature and film, but I don't really see it come up in the gaming community and I feel like it probably should be talked about.

Yeah, it would be interesting to see something like this. I've seen/heard quite a few takes on the way that many video games are essentially about killing stuff, but none that I know of that specifically relate this to the way games portray masculinity.

Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

Oh no, abort thread! If we keep encouraging people to exercise critical thinking about their own viewpoint, some jimmies might get rustled!

 

[Fappy]

Well this IS Youtube so I can't say this is at all surprising. It's times like these that I wish the words "game" and "community" could never be used in the same sentence. I don't like being associated with ass-hats.

 

[itsthesheppy]

Speaking of which, has anyone ever written about the stereotypes male characters get forced into? They're equally rooted in traditional gender stereotypes. Some say that it's okay because their qualities are "positive", but I think they're actually just as harmful to structure an identity around as their female equivalents (in fact, why do we consider these positive traits? Why are we so down on the traits traditionally considered feminine?). Actually, they might be more directly harmful, because the stereotypical male identity revolves around personal sacrifice, the denial of one's own pain and emotions, and violence.

I'm sorry, just so I'm clear, is what you're saying here that male characters have it just as bad because they are always depicted as selfless heroes who, regardless of their personal struggles, work for the greater good and save the day? Are you really saying that's just as bad as female characters, who typically serve as either window dressing or victims, or both?

I don't know about "equally bad". I do not know of a scale to measure an issue like this, I'm not sure exactly what "bad" is in this context (bad writing? bad for people's self-image? encouraging bad behaviors?). I'm not even sure if there's any real meaning to measuring "bad" in this situation (it isn't concrete in the way the wage gap or criminal sentencing patterns are, after all) or if what we're looking at are really two separate issues at all.

I would, however, argue that the "selfless hero" persona you describe exists as part of a traditional male identity in which self-worth is defined solely by utility to others. I think that this idea encourages harmful behavior in men, including behaviors which are also harmful to women, and represents a real barrier to self actualization. I also think that the fact that our society sees these traditionally masculine traits as "positive" while looking down on traditionally female traits (which include a lot of things I would like to see male characters display more of) is just another part of the problem.

It doesn't strike you a perhaps reaching a bit far to say that males always being portrayed a selfless heroes who rise to the occasion and bail other people out, at great personal risk, through violent means or not, is a negative stereotype? That depicting rampant altruism actually hurts the male identity?

That's like saying "Depicting men as always being charitable has a negative effect, because it reduces my ability to determine whether or not I want to be charitable." I think you may be reaching; more to the point, I think this may be the most tortured example of a 'positive stereotype that's actually negative' I've ever seen. You learn something new every day.

I said it could be harmful, not that it was necessarily a negative stereotype. It reinforces the idea that "being a man" means always putting aside your own problems and hiding your vulnerabilities for the sake of others. That's not a healthy thing to build an identity around. I certainly think it's an image which contributes to the way any sign of "weakness" is demonized.

If you want negative stereotypes of men in video games, I would point you to the grunting, steroid fueled caricatures defined entirely by their rage (the only emotion they ever display) and able to interact with the world around them only by means of violence. I don't think I need to tell you how prevalent those are in games, and I don't think I need to spell out how harmful presenting these psychotic non-characters as idealized images of masculinity is for everyone.

Are men always depicted as charitable? I really do not see that as being the case. In any event, wouldn't that example be the same as people claiming that all women are nurturing or kind (and all the other bits of pedestalization the romantics love shoving down our throats)? Don't we say that those things are harmful to women? Why would the same thing not be equally harmful if done to men?

Once again, I am not trying to engage in one-upsmanship or to silence anyone talking about the negative portrayals of women in games (which are many and varied). I just think this might be something we should also be talking about, and I am pointing out that I do not see people doing that.

If you want that conversation to happen, then spark it. It's a very large internet out there, and I don't think we're in any danger of reaching a data load limit on the Escapist forums. Start one. In fact, I'll even join in, because I don't *disagree* with you. Not... entirely.

Portraying men as grunting violence factories isn't great, no. But it's worth keeping aware that they are also depicted as being pro-active hero types who are, for all their grunting and juicing, saving the day at great personal risk. While they tend to be one-dimensional, boring, lame, uninspired, and generally unlikable for many reasons, we would be remiss not to point out that on the whole, it could be worse. They could be token characters who exist only to be victims or objects of desire, and frequently both.

Bringing it up in this conversation, however, serves to distract. It makes you come across as someone who's uncomfortable talking about Their issues, and who would be more comfortable talking about Your issues. Racism is still an issue. Homophobia is an issue. Nationalism is an issue. Pollution is an issue. There are millions of issues. Right now, in this thread, we're talking about a female pop-culture commentator who is being harassed; someone who comes in and says "But why aren't we talking about the endangered snow owl?!" comes across as someone who has a problem perhaps not so much with snow owls, but who would rather *not* be talking about anti-female sexism, and seeks instead to talk about something, anything, else.

What you're suggesting is an issue. However, bringing it up in this thread doesn't serve the conversation very much, except to passively say that there could be other things *you'd* rather be talking about. The question then begs: why do you think that's more important than this?

 

[MrMan999]

The problem is video games tend to be set up in a negative white male fantasy world because that is the audience that has dominated till recent years. Which means games have super macho, tough white male leads and a bunch of women(mostly white) fitting into limited male sexual fantasies. Or the women are just generally what men want women to be like(they never poop) as opposed to what women really are(capable of pooping and peeing in the toilet at the same time).

The video game audiences though is changing, it's changing quickly because there is a increasing number of various people becoming interested. Other races, women, and homosexuals.

The fans demand for male homosexual relationships instead of just lesbian relationships in Mass Effect 3 shows this. Though the fact it's incredibly hard to play a straight female Shepard in ME3 stepped the game into another wrong direction.

The response to the Hitman trailer shows a change in the audience, the response isn't coming from the usual news sources trying to claim video games are ruining society. It came from the gaming audience.

Then you have non-white male lead faces in Prototype 2 and in Assassins Creed III. Then in Assassins Creed liberation, a black female protagonist(let's just hope she's not a part time prostitute or something).

The feminist frequency chick is just aiming at one problem when the whole game industry has social issues that everyone wants to get rid of.

However, I am enjoying the fact she's brought on the attention of so many jerks who would like nothing to change. One of those comments said that men play video games to escape the real world, they don't need political correct BS in them to remind them of the real world.

Well sweetheart, I want to play video games to escape the real world too. I don't want to be reminded that men think I'm weak, defenseless, and stupid, or a sex toy.

Fun fact, Homosexual relationships in videogames is not new. Ultima Seven did it way back in 1992.

Also, Hitman has always had controversial advertisements. Honestly I found the nun ad hilarious. Its just so over the top that I have no idea how anyone could take it seriously.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I like this Tim Minchin bit on sexism. The sexism bit starts at about 6:40.

 

[MrMan999]

Speaking of which, has anyone ever written about the stereotypes male characters get forced into?

I know FF has definitely touched on this, and there's a pretty significant body of scholarly work on the subject.

Really? Which video? I just went through what I'm pretty sure is her whole archive and don't remember her specifically mentioning anything. I must have missed one.

I'm pretty sure it comes up in the Lego one, for instance - basically she's not a fan of the way the portrayal of male characters valorizes violence, or the way men are discouraged from showing emotions, etc.

I was really asking more specifically about video games. I've certainly read quite a few scholarly pieces on male characters in literature and film, but I don't really see it come up in the gaming community and I feel like it probably should be talked about.

Yeah, it would be interesting to see something like this. I've seen/heard quite a few takes on the way that many video games are essentially about killing stuff, but none that I know of that specifically relate this to the way games portray masculinity.

Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

Oh no, abort thread! If we keep encouraging people to exercise critical thinking about their own viewpoint, some jimmies might get rustled!

Theres a difference between critical thinking and shitslinging. Starting the privelige debate on the internet leads to the latter.

 

[Matthew Kjonaas]

I am pretty sure the way that these guys reacted is why so many people think the internet is a bad place for kids and maybe also why there is a stereotype of gamers being sexiest.

 

[WanderingFool]

Having had some time to slepp on this, I came back to this thread and realised something, something that quite a few people have already pointed out. She was asking for a kickstarted to make this documentory, when at least two groups, Movie Bob and Extra Credits, have done the same thing for free. I cant remember Extra Credits video, but Bob had two Game Overthinkers dedicated to this, one was showing all the bad aspects, and the other showing all the good aspects of female characters in games.

Also, another thought, why doesnt she go after Anime? Thats probably as big of offender, if not bigger, than videogames.

Uh, you do recall why Extra Credits left, right? Because they were very much not doing their thing for free and didn't like getting underpaid. Also, in terms of analysis and insight, Feminist Frequency > Extra Credits >>>>> Game Overthinker. Just sayin'

As I recall, EC left because they had a Rockethub donation for Allison's surgery, and than the Escapist came along and said they wanted a piece of the action.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

Oh no, abort thread! If we keep encouraging people to exercise critical thinking about their own viewpoint, some jimmies might get rustled!

Theres a difference between critical thinking and shitslinging. Starting the privelige debate on the internet leads to the latter.

That's what happens when jimmies are rustled. We better not say anything that challenges any worldviews ever. Can't have anyone getting mad about something they read on the internet.

 

[JediMB]

here [Edit 3 (chronological order is for the weak!):while it makes some valid points, take it with a grain of salt, as ForeverPandering is opinionated and does enjoy bitching and making fun of people. But still, he gives valid non-misogynist points against the project]:

As a brony, I'm going to agree with him on that the Bronycon documentary is entirely unnecessary. People could be spending their money on much better things than a documentary glorifying their cartoon fandom. Maybe a decade down the line, if the fandom is still alive, something like that would be justified.

Strongly disagree about Tropes vs. Women, however. "Females have ample and adequate representation in video games," he says, using the target demographic as an excuse to ignore the larger issues. Not to mention that, by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing "our" games and sending a message about the female sex to their players.

Personally I haven't participated in either Kickstarter, but I am looking forward to seeing the results of the latter.

 

[Bloodstain]

Wow. Talk about one sided journalism. For a rational view of why people are against this for a reason why people are against this who aren't misogynistic pricks, that isn't just picking youtube comments, which are vile on every subject under the sun, and calling it news, here [Edit 3 (chronological order is for the weak!):while it makes some valid points, take it with a grain of salt, as ForeverPandering is opinionated and does enjoy bitching and making fun of people. But still, he gives valid non-misogynist points against the project]:

I actually agree with that man. It really is pointless.
Besides, I fail to see why anyone would pay money for a documentary that, in essence, doesn't do more than repeat the content of TVTropes pages.

I don't condone the harsh misogynist reaction -- but I don't condone the project either. But oh well, if people have too much money, then fine.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Having had some time to slepp on this, I came back to this thread and realised something, something that quite a few people have already pointed out. She was asking for a kickstarted to make this documentory, when at least two groups, Movie Bob and Extra Credits, have done the same thing for free. I cant remember Extra Credits video, but Bob had two Game Overthinkers dedicated to this, one was showing all the bad aspects, and the other showing all the good aspects of female characters in games.

Also, another thought, why doesnt she go after Anime? Thats probably as big of offender, if not bigger, than videogames.

Uh, you do recall why Extra Credits left, right? Because they were very much not doing their thing for free and didn't like getting underpaid. Also, in terms of analysis and insight, Feminist Frequency > Extra Credits >>>>> Game Overthinker. Just sayin'

As I recall, EC left because they had a Rockethub donation for Allison's surgery, and than the Escapist came along and said they wanted a piece of the action.

Yeah, it was both. The Escapist was being dicks about the EC arm-fixing charity, and EC hadn't been getting fully compensated for quite a while. Turns out that videos with good production value aren't free, who knew?

 

[Richardplex]

here [Edit 3 (chronological order is for the weak!):while it makes some valid points, take it with a grain of salt, as ForeverPandering is opinionated and does enjoy bitching and making fun of people. But still, he gives valid non-misogynist points against the project]:

As a brony, I'm going to agree with him on that the Bronycon documentary is entirely unnecessary. People could be spending their money on much better things than a documentary glorifying their cartoon fandom. Maybe a decade down the line, if the fandom is still alive, something like that would be justified.

Strongly disagree about Tropes vs. Women, however. "Females have ample and adequate representation in video games," he says, using the target demographic as an excuse to ignore the larger issues. Not to mention that, by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing "our" games and sending a message about the female sex to their players.

Personally I haven't participated in either Kickstarter, but I am looking forward to seeing the results of the latter.

Yeah, I disagree with him there. In my defence however, I never said all his points were valid.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

This Kickstarter NEEDS horrendous people making these posts. Because this kickstarter NEEDS to fail.

You're about $45,000 too late haha.

Because all one has to do is say "Sexism" and...



Because throwing money at a problem is easier than trying to acknowledge it.[/quote]

I can never help but wonder "is it really a problem?".

Companies design things to appeal to a demographic, so if all the pink and frilly stuff didn't appeal to girls, they wouldn't be making it, would they?

If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Is it misogynistic? Sure. I however don't really see why anybody should consider what people that apparently aren't buying the games thinks though.[/quote]Come to think of it, I've never seen an ad for Barbie with a boy playing with the doll... Outrageous sexism!

 

[itsthesheppy]

You know, if you don't think something should have money spent on it, don't spend money on it. If money is being spent on it, clearly people care about that thing.