Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

[OtherSideofSky]

Speaking of which, has anyone ever written about the stereotypes male characters get forced into? They're equally rooted in traditional gender stereotypes. Some say that it's okay because their qualities are "positive", but I think they're actually just as harmful to structure an identity around as their female equivalents (in fact, why do we consider these positive traits? Why are we so down on the traits traditionally considered feminine?). Actually, they might be more directly harmful, because the stereotypical male identity revolves around personal sacrifice, the denial of one's own pain and emotions, and violence.

I'm sorry, just so I'm clear, is what you're saying here that male characters have it just as bad because they are always depicted as selfless heroes who, regardless of their personal struggles, work for the greater good and save the day? Are you really saying that's just as bad as female characters, who typically serve as either window dressing or victims, or both?

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If you want that conversation to happen, then spark it. It's a very large internet out there, and I don't think we're in any danger of reaching a data load limit on the Escapist forums. Start one. In fact, I'll even join in, because I don't *disagree* with you. Not... entirely.

Portraying men as grunting violence factories isn't great, no. But it's worth keeping aware that they are also depicted as being pro-active hero types who are, for all their grunting and juicing, saving the day at great personal risk. While they tend to be one-dimensional, boring, lame, uninspired, and generally unlikable for many reasons, we would be remiss not to point out that on the whole, it could be worse. They could be token characters who exist only to be victims or objects of desire, and frequently both.

Bringing it up in this conversation, however, serves to distract. It makes you come across as someone who's uncomfortable talking about Their issues, and who would be more comfortable talking about Your issues. Racism is still an issue. Homophobia is an issue. Nationalism is an issue. Pollution is an issue. There are millions of issues. Right now, in this thread, we're talking about a female pop-culture commentator who is being harassed; someone who comes in and says "But why aren't we talking about the endangered snow owl?!" comes across as someone who has a problem perhaps not so much with snow owls, but who would rather *not* be talking about anti-female sexism, and seeks instead to talk about something, anything, else.

What you're suggesting is an issue. However, bringing it up in this thread doesn't serve the conversation very much, except to passively say that there could be other things *you'd* rather be talking about. The question then begs: why do you think that's more important than this?

Fundamentally, I don't see them as different conversations. I think making "pro-active hero" an equal opportunity role requires doing the same for roles like "victim" and "object of desire", so why not deal with them together?

It seemed that everything that could be said about the Youtube comments (the original topic of this thread) had already been said (I had an earlier comment on them myself) and that people had moved on to other subjects related to gender in video games. As such, I brought up a point that I thought of as a result of watching that video, reading the Kickstarter page and going to FF to browse some of her other videos. If this were a thread about one of those videos, I would not bring up the point because it would indeed be a distraction from the topic at hand, but I saw this as a thread about talking about gender in video games, rather than a thread specifically about the portrayal of women (I see that there are fortunately several active threads dealing with that very subject at the present time). I apologize if I appear to be derailing anything.

Once again, this topic started as a discussion of Youtube comments. I think that a serious discussion about gender of any kind is more important than anything which has ever been written in a Youtube comment. If people had really been debating them, I wouldn't have brought this up, but everyone said either "this is horrible, the gaming community has a problem" or "this is horrible, but that's what I expect from Youtube comments" and people had already started up the same circular arguments about what feminism is that crop up in every thread that even mentions gender. I didn't see any women talking about their problems and viewpoints (if I missed any, I apologize), I saw a declaration that a woman is going to do so at some unspecified future date. I'm sorry, but I can't make much conversation or analysis out of that and I can't talk about her videos until she actually makes them.

I brought this up hear because the Kickstarter this is all about made me think of it, and I haven't written anything about it myself yet because that happened less than three hours ago. Honestly, I was hoping someone more qualified than myself had already written something about it.

I feel pretty confident that I don't secretly want to avoid talking about sexist portrayals of women because I have written about it (primarily in the context of film) in three different languages, which is something I feel like I would not have done if I didn't want to talk about it.

 

[Phasmal]

I can never help but wonder "is it really a problem?".

Companies design things to appeal to a demographic, so if all the pink and frilly stuff didn't appeal to girls, they wouldn't be making it, would they?

If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Is it misogynistic? Sure. I however don't really see why anybody should consider what people that apparently aren't buying the games thinks though.

Oh, bloody hell. Seriously? This conversation?
Ladies are a bigger part of the demographic now than they used to be and it's only gonna get bigger. Games are not `for guys`.
I buy plenty of games, and none of my games are pink and frilly.

Would you really justify:
`Well not enough black people are buying this stuff so it's okay to be racist in it`?

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Come to think of it, I've never seen an ad for Barbie with a boy playing with the doll... Outrageous sexism!

Watch, if it gets a response it will boil down to

"No no, they are just brainwashed into thinking they like that stuff."

My mum bought me a mermaid Barbie doll when I was about six. I loved playing with it. Why are there no male figures playing with Barbie dolls in my ads, damn it! I am so outraged, I am going to start a Kickstarter to raise awareness for men being excluded from things! Oh, right... I'm a white male. Only minorities and women can call something racist or sexist. I totally forgot.

 

[Shiftygiant]

Now while I agree that woman occasionally misrepresented in video-games, she can do this for free! And it has no real productive skill. To call her out on this, fine. Makes sense to state: 'Not all woman in video-games are misrepresented, and by not giving us a show that details the making of a good female character by looking at the mistakes we have made and the better female characters as to create a better medium'.
That response is the sought of thing that should be the majority. Instead we get a vile underbelly of sexism, racism and general ignorance.
BUT
This is free speech, the concept of which is that you, as the individual, makes there choice and states it. Her choice, to create a pointless series that has been done a thousand times more meaningful in less then 5 episodes for free, is her choice and she should be allowed to pursue this. The vile backlash is there freedom of choice, much akin to how causally racist British newspapers can be. The point is that anyone can state there opinions, even if it makes your blood boil as the advocate things you would spend your life apposing.

The whole anonymity was better summed up here http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 at penny arcade. The matter of the fact is while you can say things, its not a right. Freedom of speech is a privilege that can be taken away by the proper authority, like the forum admins on this lovely site.

 

[The Floating Nose]

On behalf of every decent men on the internet (the others, you can go fuck yourselves). I give my apologies to all women in the world for the comments that these stupid fucks made.

 

[JediMB]

Yeah, I disagree with him there. In my defence however, I never said all his points were valid.

True enough. Well, like I said, I'm looking forward to the results. Hopefully Sarkeesian will have a pleasant surprise for the people who dismiss her series in advance. Hopefully.

If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Going to quote myself from my previous post:
"by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing `our´ games and sending a message about the female sex to their players."

The issue is decades old. Women, and girls, have been discouraged from getting involved with technology/electronics, and as such didn't have much presence when video games became a thing. Then, while the market has started to appeal to the female gender with other forms of consumer electronics and entertainment, the video game industry has largely stubbornly been minmaxing its gender appeal stats.

You're not going to get someone to buy more games if you're unnecessarily making games unappealing to that someone.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Now while I agree that woman occasionally misrepresented in video-games, she can do this for free! And it has no real productive skill. To call her out on this, fine. Makes sense to state: 'Not all woman in video-games are misrepresented, and by not giving us a show that details the making of a good female character by looking at the mistakes we have made and the better female characters as to create a better medium'.
That response is the sought of thing that should be the majority. Instead we get a vile underbelly of sexism, racism and general ignorance.
BUT
This is free speech, the concept of which is that you, as the individual, makes there choice and states it. Her choice, to create a pointless series that has been done a thousand times more meaningful in less then 5 episodes for free, is her choice and she should be allowed to pursue this. The vile backlash is there freedom of choice, much akin to how causally racist British newspapers can be. The point is that anyone can state there opinions, even if it makes your blood boil as the advocate things you would spend your life apposing.

The whole anonymity was better summed up here http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 at penny arcade. The matter of the fact is while you can say things, its not a right. Freedom of speech is a privilege that can be taken away by the proper authority, like the forum admins on this lovely site.

They can't take away your right to say whatever you want. All they can do is stop you from doing it here. But that was nitpicking and I actually liked your post. So... -A overall

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Yeah, I disagree with him there. In my defence however, I never said all his points were valid.

True enough. Well, like I said, I'm looking forward to the results. Hopefully Sarkeesian will have a pleasant surprise for the people who dismiss her series in advance. Hopefully.

If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Going to quote myself from my previous post:
"by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing `our´ games and sending a message about the female sex to their players."

The issue is decades old. Women, and girls, have been discouraged from getting involved with technology/electronics, and as such didn't have much presence when video games became a thing. Then, while the market has started to appeal to the female gender with other forms of consumer electronics and entertainment, the video game industry has largely stubbornly been minmaxing its gender appeal stats.

You're not going to get someone to buy more games if you're unnecessarily making games unappealing to that someone.

I have never once seen an ad for a Barbie doll that had a man or boy playing with the doll. By your logic, this is sexism and men are excluded from many things in a sexist fashion. Ever seen a man wearing a dress in an ad? A boy wearing a ballerina outfit?

"By unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging men from playing with `our´ toys and sending a message about the male sex to their consumers."

 

[JediMB]

I have never once seen an ad for a Barbie doll that had a man or boy playing with the doll. By your logic, this is sexism and men are excluded from many things in a sexist fashion. Ever seen a man wearing a dress in an ad? A boy wearing a ballerina outfit?

"By unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging men from playing with `our´ toys and sending a message about the male sex to their consumers."

Sexism is involved, yes. But that goes much deeper than the ads, and encompasses our entire upbringing, where girls are encouraged to like dolls while boys would be ridiculed for being of the same inclination. And that's not even going into the likelihood of some group or another of American parents likely freaking the fuck out if an ad had a boy and a girl playing with Barbie dolls together. (They'd probably say something about the boy being portrayed as gay.)

By the way? I played with my sister's dolls as a child, so I've got first-hand experience with what my friends thought of that.

As for if I've seen an ad with a man wearing a dress... I believe I have. As a joke, granted, but still. You've got me on the ballerina outfit, however. It's all about how we've created a culture where men/boys wear "normal" clothes, while women/girls wear "girl clothes". The female sex is always the exception, the deviation from the norm, for some reason. (And, related to my final point about the dolls, very few brands would likely want to be thought of as "that transvestite brand".)

But while I've no issues with saying that there is sexism involved in your examples, there's an important difference. When was the last time you heard a man complaining about the lack of dresses and skirts made for them? (I'll skip that question in regards to dolls, because My Little Pony.) And when was the last time you heard a woman complain about feeling excluded from the medium because of female portrayal in video games? You don't really need too answer, but the fact that the complaints exist proves that the market potential exists as well.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I have never once seen an ad for a Barbie doll that had a man or boy playing with the doll. By your logic, this is sexism and men are excluded from many things in a sexist fashion. Ever seen a man wearing a dress in an ad? A boy wearing a ballerina outfit?

"By unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging men from playing with `our´ toys and sending a message about the male sex to their consumers."

Sexism is involved, yes. But that goes much deeper than the ads, and encompasses our entire upbringing, where girls are encouraged to like dolls while boys would be ridiculed for being of the same inclination. And that's not even going into the likelihood of some group or another of American parents likely freaking the fuck out if an ad had a boy and a girl playing with Barbie dolls together. (They'd probably say something about the boy being portrayed as gay.)

By the way? I played with my sister's dolls as a child, so I've got first-hand experience with what my friends thought of that.

As for if I've seen an ad with a man wearing a dress... I believe I have. As a joke, granted, but still. You've got me on the ballerina outfit, however. It's all about how we've created a culture where men/boys wear "normal" clothes, while women/girls wear "girl clothes". The female sex is always the exception, the deviation from the norm, for some reason. (And, related to my final point about the dolls, very few brands would likely want to be thought of as "that transvestite brand".)

But while I've no issues with saying that there is sexism involved in your examples, there's an important difference. When was the last time you heard a man complaining about the lack of dresses and skirts made for them? (I'll skip that question in regards to dolls, because My Little Pony.) And when was the last time you heard a woman complain about feeling excluded from the medium because of female portrayal in video games? You don't really need too answer, but the fact that the complaints exist proves that the market potential exists as well.

Oh, so if you deem a demographic as unimportant, it's okay to ignore them and even go so far as to exclude them with your behaviour? It's okay that you and I (I played with Barbie growing up) aren't accepted into a culture and no Barbie dolls are made for us, but it's not okay for people to make games that exclude women? Interesting.

 

[JediMB]

If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Going to quote myself from my previous post:
"by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing `our´ games and sending a message about the female sex to their players."

The issue is decades old. Women, and girls, have been discouraged from getting involved with technology/electronics, and as such didn't have much presence when video games became a thing. Then, while the market has started to appeal to the female gender with other forms of consumer electronics and entertainment, the video game industry has largely stubbornly been minmaxing its gender appeal stats.

You're not going to get someone to buy more games if you're unnecessarily making games unappealing to that someone.

Hot damn, you just refuted your own point for me. Thanks

They already have a audience, why would they go out of their way to obtain a audience they have no guarentee to obtain when that might alienate the one they already have? They don't have a reason.

Actually, I didn't. But you seem to have skipped a few words when you read my post. And half the argument.

First off, the "unnecessarily" is supposed to suggest that men will still play a video game, even if the female characters aren't sexist stereotypes. It's not porn, after all. (And I'm not asking anyone to change Dead or Alive Xtreme, becuase who gives a shit?) They have much to gain with little chance of any loss.

Secondly, there's the "bigger issue" again. About not enforcing harmful stereotypes.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Yeah, Youtube is full of sexist, racist homophobic morons who comment on any video featuring certain keywords. . . not seeing the story aspect here?

If someone's making a VLog about sexism in videogames then cool, if it's any good I'll likely watch it, I don't think I'm up for paying them for it though.

Personally, I'm still getting over Radical having the balls to have a brother as the main character in a game that wasn't about crime or rapping so y'know. Guess that's something.

 

[WanderingFool]

Having had some time to slepp on this, I came back to this thread and realised something, something that quite a few people have already pointed out. She was asking for a kickstarted to make this documentory, when at least two groups, Movie Bob and Extra Credits, have done the same thing for free. I cant remember Extra Credits video, but Bob had two Game Overthinkers dedicated to this, one was showing all the bad aspects, and the other showing all the good aspects of female characters in games.

Also, another thought, why doesnt she go after Anime? Thats probably as big of offender, if not bigger, than videogames.

Uh, you do recall why Extra Credits left, right? Because they were very much not doing their thing for free and didn't like getting underpaid. Also, in terms of analysis and insight, Feminist Frequency > Extra Credits >>>>> Game Overthinker. Just sayin'

As I recall, EC left because they had a Rockethub donation for Allison's surgery, and than the Escapist came along and said they wanted a piece of the action.

Yeah, it was both. The Escapist was being dicks about the EC arm-fixing charity, and EC hadn't been getting fully compensated for quite a while. Turns out that videos with good production value aren't free, who knew?

So, if a good video takes money, than with all the money put up for this documentary, it should be damn good then...

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

No, by all means, lets bring it up. Humanity's capacity for self-conceit amuses me, and I'm served a veritable smorgasbord whenever the feminist choir starts singing a barbershop Capella about how they're all being held back by the white, heterosexual man. Take wages for example. Every ardent feminist sees themselves as the one being victimised, held back from earning what is owed to them due to society's gender inequalities, but you know what?

Not one of them ever admits that they are in fact distinctly average, maybe a little below average or even just a little higher than average. It never really comes up that if you filled a room full of internet-soapbox jumping feminists that just simply by the law of averages, the vast majority of them would not worth what they certainly claim they're worth, in fact some of them are probably worth even less than whatever they already get.

Now I would be lying through my teeth if I said that right now, sometime this week, definitely in my own country, maybe even in my own state a woman is being passed over for a promotion simply because of her gender.

Misogyny does happen. It would be a lie to say it never happens.

But what happens far more often then that to a far greater degree, a lot of very average people regardless of their gender, miss out on career opportunities for no reason more sinister than the sad fact that they either kinda suck or can't go above and beyond the call of duty like their peers who will get the career opportunities that they miss out on.

By the law of averages again, can you guess which group the majority of these feminists will fall into?

[Captcha : real mccoy] Oh yeah captcha, your damn right I am.

 

[Naeras]

I read some of those comments, and I'm currently fucking embarrassed to be a penis-wielder. What the FUCK is wrong with these misogynistic shitkids?
Captcha: "brush your teeth". And wash your mouth and grow right up while you're at it.

So in other news, I'm supporting the kickstarter.

 

[JediMB]

Oh, so if you deem a demographic as unimportant, it's okay to ignore them and even go so far as to exclude them with your behaviour? It's okay that you and I (I played with Barbie growing up) aren't accepted into a culture and no Barbie dolls are made for us, but it's not okay for people to make games that exclude women? Interesting.

No, I'm saying that if you want something changed, you have to speak up about it and make it known that there is a demand.

And while no Barbie-branded dolls are aimed at boys, there are plenty of other dolls around for boys. They're just called "figures" or "action figures", since the mentioned sexism has determined that dolls are for girls. The question, I think, is what kind of dolls would you want "made for you"?

EDIT: Oh, hey, 2999 posts. Maybe I should do something special with my next one.

 

[NightHawk21]

I'll probably get called out for being some sort of bad person or jerk, but honestly all I feel is indifference. I've seen this before and I've heard all this before. Do I think some developers use women in a very stereotypical fashion, sure, but the same could be said for a lot of males in video games too. All in all I honestly just don't care about the content anymore.

As for the video and the comments. Sure the comments are harsh, but welcome to the internet, you'll find comments like that on just about anything (not saying its right just an unfortunate reality). I don't really understand why she needs the money to do the project though.

 

[esperandote]

For once feminism done right and that's what she gets, that's why we can't have nice things.

 

[jklinders]

Topic has already been argued to Oblivion and back. I'll just respond to the OP and leave it at that.

Criticizing the intent of looking for funding for a vlog is OK. Criticizing the content of said vlog is also OK. Stooping to low depths of incredible hatred and bile over this is over the freaking top. I know this is youtube where the lowest of the low like to play but I would have hoped that there were a few less knuckle draggers out there than this.

Having said this, this is the reason why we have the function to block comments. Religion, politics and feminism are just those gasoline laced topics that crazy ass punks love to post on and act all tough on. Best just to deny them a soapbox unless you are prepared to spend a lot of your time countering them.

Some folks are questioning, why even bother making the videos at all. Well, those hateful comments are a pretty good starting point I think. As long as those cavemen walk among us and we allow them to act like that, then there will continue to be a need to address those attitudes.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

If this kickstarter is about funding women to help them bring down the highly annoying website tv tropes then I fully support it.