Korean Officials Raid Blizzard

[Susurrus]

SNIP

I don't really follow your logic. People getting refunds will presumably be barred from playing online (as they'll have an online account and everything, or will have to return physical copies of disks). In which case, if they do take advantage of the refund, they then can't play the game. That seems fair enough, surely? Whether something might work in the future is moot, if you bought it to play it now. If it IS faulty, and you want to get rid of it, the fact that it might be fixed at some point in the future is not necessarily compensation for the fact that you can't use it when you want to.

Even if they aren't, Blizzard will only be forced to pay refunds if it is found that it broke South Korean law. If, under South Korean law, releasing a game which is unplayable for an unspecified period of time due to server-side problems is illegal, getting punished for it - simply by allowing refunds for products sold - is a reasonable solution. It's also a problem that will almost certainly have been pointed out to Blizzard - which means that someone, somewhere, made a decision about the number of servers, perfectly aware that it might not be enough, and chose to disregard Korean law to make more of a profit.

Finally, it seems from the article that one of the issues is that the EULA that people signed is possibly deemed an unfair consumer contract under South Korean law. I think that is extremely interesting, because very little legal work in other jurisdictions has focused on the EULA. In many games, at least in some western jurisdictions, you sign away some extremely basic consumer rights by signing the EULA - often stuff which is specifically written into law as set-in-stone stuff that you shouldn't be able to sign away. Increasingly they are being used to even deny ownership of the content on the disc, effectively suggesting you are only borrowing/renting it from the company that supplied it. Having a jurisdiction, even one so far away, to Western jurisdictions, as South Korea, declare an EULA to be unfair smoke and mirrors would be a fascinating turn of events.

 

[Tony2077]

SNIP

I don't really follow your logic. People getting refunds will presumably be barred from playing online (as they'll have an online account and everything, or will have to return physical copies of disks). In which case, if they do take advantage of the refund, they then can't play the game. That seems fair enough, surely? Whether something might work in the future is moot, if you bought it to play it now. If it IS faulty, and you want to get rid of it, the fact that it might be fixed at some point in the future is not necessarily compensation for the fact that you can't use it when you want to.

Even if they aren't, Blizzard will only be forced to pay refunds if it is found that it broke South Korean law. If, under South Korean law, releasing a game which is unplayable for an unspecified period of time due to server-side problems is illegal, getting punished for it - simply by allowing refunds for products sold - is a reasonable solution.

Finally, it seems from the article that one of the issues is that the EULA that people signed is possibly deemed an unfair consumer contract under South Korean law. I think that is extremely interesting, because very little legal work in other jurisdictions has focused on the EULA. In many games, at least in some western jurisdictions, you sign away some extremely basic consumer rights by signing the EULA - often stuff which is specifically written into law as set-in-stone stuff that you shouldn't be able to sign away. Increasingly they are being used to even deny ownership of the content on the disc, effectively suggesting you are only borrowing/renting it from the company that supplied it. Having a jurisdiction, even one so far away, to Western jurisdictions, as South Korea, declare an EULA to be unfair smoke and mirrors would be a fascinating turn of events.

i wonder if companies can't use that to protect themselves how many people will try to use that as an excuse. you expect it to be all sunshine and rainbows there are bound to be people who will try to use this as a cash grab. it may not just be limited to this. there are people out there looking for any kink in the armor to exploit


edit well i grow tired of there merry go round of doom so i'm going to go watch Sankarea.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Good on Korea. I realise that it's impractical for companies to have all the servers online needed for launch population, but that's not our problem. Customers should be able to play the game they bought on the day the bought it. If it wasn't for that always online shit, another problem that isn't the players' but that Blizzard have decided is, then people would be able to play offline and wouldn't care about the servers. Blizzard have dug themselves into a hole, and that's all there is to it.

 

[WaysideMaze]

i don't know but it'd be stupid to think that there won't be. ignoring that outcome and hoping for best isn't always the best course to take.

Why is it stupid? What possible backlash can we as the consumers expect from this? No other industry (that I can think of) is allowed to sell a product that doesn't work, and then refuse to offer refunds. Why should the games industry be held to a separate standard?
That last question is important, seriously consider it before replying.

i wonder if companies can't use that to protect themselves how many people will try to use that as an excuse. you expect it to be all sunshine and rainbows there are bound to be people who will try to use this as a cash grab. it may not just be limited to this. there are people out there looking for any kink in the armor to exploit

Protect themselves from what? Dissatisfied customers? Well the way to protect yourself there is not to release a faulty product in the first place.

And how in the hell can people use it as a cash grab? You keep throwing that around yet not once have you actually explained how you expect it to happen.

You seem to be terrified that by giving people refunds on faulty products the entire industry will collapse inwards on itself, and I cannot comprehend your logic.


N.B. I understand that refunds within the video game industry are tricky. The fear would be that many people would buy a game, finish it over weekend, and then return it for full value, like renting only free. However, that is a separate topic.
What needs to be discussed here is the issue of refunds specifically on faulty products.
We as consumers have the right to our money back if we are not getting what we have paid for, and the idea that a company can refuse to give our money back is deplorable, and I applaud S.K. for their efforts on this matter.

 

[Tony2077]

i don't know but it'd be stupid to think that there won't be. ignoring that outcome and hoping for best isn't always the best course to take.

Why is it stupid? What possible backlash can we as the consumers expect from this? No other industry (that I can think of) is allowed to sell a product that doesn't work, and then refuse to offer refunds. Why should the games industry be held to a separate standard?
That last question is important, seriously consider it before replying.

i wonder if companies can't use that to protect themselves how many people will try to use that as an excuse. you expect it to be all sunshine and rainbows there are bound to be people who will try to use this as a cash grab. it may not just be limited to this. there are people out there looking for any kink in the armor to exploit

Protect themselves from what? Dissatisfied customers? Well the way to protect yourself there is not to release a faulty product in the first place.

And how in the hell can people use it as a cash grab? You keep throwing that around yet not once have you actually explained how you expect it to happen.

You seem to be terrified that by giving people refunds on faulty products the entire industry will collapse inwards on itself, and I cannot comprehend your logic.


N.B. I understand that refunds within the video game industry are tricky. The fear would be that many people would buy a game, finish it over weekend, and then return it for full value, like renting only free. However, that is a separate topic.
What needs to be discussed here is the issue of refunds specifically on faulty products.
We as consumers have the right to our money back if we are not getting what we have paid for, and the idea that a company can refuse to give our money back is deplorable, and I applaud S.K. for their efforts on this matter.

well to be honest i hope your right and there won't be any fallout on this but who can say. there may just be refunds but there may also be people who go through the hole that's been made. you have to look at the big picture its not always as simple as people like to think which are too many here

 

[Urameshi13]

I can tell you right now, if I were the head of Blizzard and was forced to refund all those butthurt whiners, it would be the last bit of business I'd ever do in Korea.

 

[Tony2077]

still doesn't make sense unless the problems aren't fixable.

I have to thank you for endlessly defending a corporation over humans.

Simple fact: If I am sold a product that does not work as advertised, the law says I am entitled to return it for my money back.
Blizzard knew about their server limits.
Blizzard even gave a warning ahead of time that logging in day 1 would be buggy due to the mob and that chilling out and waiting a bit might be mandatory.
Blizzard's heads up only accounted for day 1.
We are almost a month into the release.
It does not matter to the law if the problem CAN be fixed, the problem should not exist to begin with when you are charging money. That is called consumer protection.
If two weeks into the release, the country with the fastest internet is having problems accessing the game, it is a problem on the company.
Once again, the law is on the side of the consumer and it doesn't matter if the problem CAN be fixed.
They knew the popularity of the franchise, they even acknowledged the upcoming issues. BY LAW, the problems should no longer exist if they are refusing refunds.
Refusing refunds is by law consumer abuse.
EULA's are not legal and binding contracts. Legal and binding contracts require a signature in blue or black ink, a date, and a notary present. EULA's have been over ruled in courts many times. Hence why GeoHot is not in a federal prison for breach of contract.

Accepting that a game has issues that cause many consumers to not play it and ignoring them just so you can play, IS bending over for the company. You are accepting whatever abuse they choose to throw your way.
Stop being a corporate whore. Logic.

why should i care when a bunch of people who can't play it get butthurt over it and run to the government crying about it

 

[lacktheknack]

this is just as bad as the bullshit about the me3 ending when will it end.

Except this actually protects consumer rights as opposed to trying to make a game ending not suck.

the right to be assholes are the only rights i see being protected these days

That is a right just like any other but if you buy something than you fucken expect it to work so they have every right to complain about this and if you don't agree then you shouldn't complain about their complaining.

so if i don't agree with bullshit i should just stick my head in the ground?

How is wanting a game to work bullshit?

the thing is the game does work just because you live where there is a lousy connection doesn't change that basic

Actually south Korea has better internet speed and coverage then we do here in the states, the argument from the story isn't about personal connection speed or anything, its about an investigation into if blizzard purposely didn't buy enough servers to accommodate most of the people wanting to play.

so blizzard gets screwed because people are butthurt about the lack of servers

Yes.

People buy a game, and wish to play it. They cannot, and IT IS BLIZZARD'S FAULT.

So yes, screw Blizzard.

Or have you forgotten that Diablo 3 needs a server connection to play in single-player?

 

[Tony2077]

this is just as bad as the bullshit about the me3 ending when will it end.

Except this actually protects consumer rights as opposed to trying to make a game ending not suck.

the right to be assholes are the only rights i see being protected these days

That is a right just like any other but if you buy something than you fucken expect it to work so they have every right to complain about this and if you don't agree then you shouldn't complain about their complaining.

so if i don't agree with bullshit i should just stick my head in the ground?

How is wanting a game to work bullshit?

the thing is the game does work just because you live where there is a lousy connection doesn't change that basic

Actually south Korea has better internet speed and coverage then we do here in the states, the argument from the story isn't about personal connection speed or anything, its about an investigation into if blizzard purposely didn't buy enough servers to accommodate most of the people wanting to play.

so blizzard gets screwed because people are butthurt about the lack of servers

Yes.

People buy a game, and wish to play it. They cannot, and IT IS BLIZZARD'S FAULT.

So yes, screw Blizzard.

Or have you forgotten that Diablo 3 needs a server connection to play in single-player?

what about ubisoft when they did it they never got treated this way people were angry but they never went this far so what makes daiblo 3 and blizzard so damn different

 

[lacktheknack]

there is no way I'd ever be a bad as that guy and get called a fanatic make me think you guys are the zeel like people.

i couldn't care less what happens to blizzard it's the shit storm that may come from it that's the problem

What shitstorm? that gamers will finally have the same rights as every other form of consumer? In all of your posts you've yet to explain exactly what bad will come of this.

the people with problems are fine but if this goes through can you really think that the idiots or jerks won't try to take advantage of it. it may be punishing them but in the end the problems that come from it may be bigger then people getting refunds

How are idiots and jerks going to take advantage of it?

Seriously, I'd like you to tell me exactly what bad will come of this and how people will take advantage of it.

i don't know but it'd be stupid to think that there won't be. ignoring that outcome and hoping for best isn't always the best course to take.

If you cannot think of a downside, it's pretty damn hard to "ignore" said downside. Maybe... just maybe... the correct course of action here is to force Blizzard to give refunds.

I mean, come on. I work at a grocery store, and if we accidentally sell bad milk/moldy produce/stale bread/etc, we ALWAYS give them a refund. The people who cannot play the game have been sold metaphorical moldy produce.

 

[lacktheknack]

this is just as bad as the bullshit about the me3 ending when will it end.

Except this actually protects consumer rights as opposed to trying to make a game ending not suck.

the right to be assholes are the only rights i see being protected these days

That is a right just like any other but if you buy something than you fucken expect it to work so they have every right to complain about this and if you don't agree then you shouldn't complain about their complaining.

so if i don't agree with bullshit i should just stick my head in the ground?

How is wanting a game to work bullshit?

the thing is the game does work just because you live where there is a lousy connection doesn't change that basic

Actually south Korea has better internet speed and coverage then we do here in the states, the argument from the story isn't about personal connection speed or anything, its about an investigation into if blizzard purposely didn't buy enough servers to accommodate most of the people wanting to play.

so blizzard gets screwed because people are butthurt about the lack of servers

Yes.

People buy a game, and wish to play it. They cannot, and IT IS BLIZZARD'S FAULT.

So yes, screw Blizzard.

Or have you forgotten that Diablo 3 needs a server connection to play in single-player?

what about ubisoft when they did it they never got treated this way people were angry but they never went this far so what makes daiblo 3 and blizzard so damn different

The hell? I couldn't stop trumpeting about how much I DESPISED Ubisoft for it and how they could burn in hell, and a lot of others supported me on it.

And then multiple times, the servers went down and everyone went absolutely berserk.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/98927-Ubisoft-DRM-Authentication-Servers-Go-Down

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115635-Ubisoft-Games-Unplayable-During-Server-Switch

In fact, enough people BAAAAAAW'd about it that they repealed the DRM from "From Dust".

So you're just... wrong.

 

[Tony2077]

this is just as bad as the bullshit about the me3 ending when will it end.

Except this actually protects consumer rights as opposed to trying to make a game ending not suck.

the right to be assholes are the only rights i see being protected these days

That is a right just like any other but if you buy something than you fucken expect it to work so they have every right to complain about this and if you don't agree then you shouldn't complain about their complaining.

so if i don't agree with bullshit i should just stick my head in the ground?

How is wanting a game to work bullshit?

the thing is the game does work just because you live where there is a lousy connection doesn't change that basic

Actually south Korea has better internet speed and coverage then we do here in the states, the argument from the story isn't about personal connection speed or anything, its about an investigation into if blizzard purposely didn't buy enough servers to accommodate most of the people wanting to play.

so blizzard gets screwed because people are butthurt about the lack of servers

Yes.

People buy a game, and wish to play it. They cannot, and IT IS BLIZZARD'S FAULT.

So yes, screw Blizzard.

Or have you forgotten that Diablo 3 needs a server connection to play in single-player?

what about ubisoft when they did it they never got treated this way people were angry but they never went this far so what makes daiblo 3 and blizzard so damn different

The hell? I couldn't stop trumpeting about how much I DESPISED Ubisoft for it and how they could burn in hell, and a lot of others supported me on it.

And then multiple times, the servers went down and everyone went absolutely berserk.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/98927-Ubisoft-DRM-Authentication-Servers-Go-Down

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115635-Ubisoft-Games-Unplayable-During-Server-Switch

In fact, enough people BAAAAAAW'd about it that they repealed the DRM from "From Dust".

So you're just... wrong.

did they cry to the government about it at the time like these people are doing

seems like bullshit and overkill

 

[Atmos Duality]

Oh how predictable.
The central point of failure Blizzard introduced into the game failed, and people are unhappy.
Anyone surprised by this turn of events can make their shocked, surprised face...now.

...that's what I thought.

The other issue I have with this is their abject refusal to provide even the *option* for a refund. They specifically forbid the possibility in their EULA, and for no goddamn good reason.

Game doesn't work for some reason? You don't like it?
Too bad. So sad. They don't care now that they have your money.

"Better luck next time, and thanks for the free cash, sucker!
Love, Blizzard"

 

[ultrachicken]

Good on them. The Diablo 3 server issues are unforgivable at this stage, and if evidence is turned up to support notion that Blizzard purposely didn't set up enough servers, then I hope they get their ass kicked in court.

 

[lacktheknack]

this is just as bad as the bullshit about the me3 ending when will it end.

Except this actually protects consumer rights as opposed to trying to make a game ending not suck.

the right to be assholes are the only rights i see being protected these days

That is a right just like any other but if you buy something than you fucken expect it to work so they have every right to complain about this and if you don't agree then you shouldn't complain about their complaining.

so if i don't agree with bullshit i should just stick my head in the ground?

How is wanting a game to work bullshit?

the thing is the game does work just because you live where there is a lousy connection doesn't change that basic

Actually south Korea has better internet speed and coverage then we do here in the states, the argument from the story isn't about personal connection speed or anything, its about an investigation into if blizzard purposely didn't buy enough servers to accommodate most of the people wanting to play.

so blizzard gets screwed because people are butthurt about the lack of servers

Yes.

People buy a game, and wish to play it. They cannot, and IT IS BLIZZARD'S FAULT.

So yes, screw Blizzard.

Or have you forgotten that Diablo 3 needs a server connection to play in single-player?

what about ubisoft when they did it they never got treated this way people were angry but they never went this far so what makes daiblo 3 and blizzard so damn different

The hell? I couldn't stop trumpeting about how much I DESPISED Ubisoft for it and how they could burn in hell, and a lot of others supported me on it.

And then multiple times, the servers went down and everyone went absolutely berserk.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/98927-Ubisoft-DRM-Authentication-Servers-Go-Down

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115635-Ubisoft-Games-Unplayable-During-Server-Switch

In fact, enough people BAAAAAAW'd about it that they repealed the DRM from "From Dust".

So you're just... wrong.

did they cry to the government about it at the time like these people are doing

seems like bullshit and overkill

The difference is that at least Ubisoft had the decency to fix it within a week or so.

This has gone on for nearly three. At what point of brokenness with no refund would you allow people to finally sue for their money?

Also, if you don't think that people were complaining to authorities about Ubisoft, you've clearly never heard of the BBB. People have been complaining all right.

Also, there's something called "Exponential Fury". Being spat upon once is upsetting, being spat upon twice is much more so.

 

[Tony2077]

why should i care when a bunch of people who can't play it get butthurt over it and run to the government crying about it

Because you're next. And if not the government, who will defend your rights then?
When this turns out in Blizzard's favor, abusive practices escalate.
Next week YOU won't be able to access servers. Then what will you say?
Cause I guarantee it won't be, "Well, just my luck. Can't use a product I legally purchased. My fault for buying."
You will be here, bitching and whining as though you never liked Blizzard in the first place. And before you even think about telling me that I don't know you or anything about you: I DO know you. There ain't a whole hell of a lot of personality types in the world and I've seen them all.

I don't give a fuck if you want to continue to blow them, but DO NOT come here and pretend like it's our fault, or that it's nothing to do with Blizzard's practice. You want to fellate them? Do it on their message boards. In these parts we tend to give a fuck when a company gets away with abusive practices.
You don't have to care, but don't you DARE try to defend them to us you corporate schill.

you can't know what people will do like that. trust me this world isn't as black and white as you like to think it is

 

[lacktheknack]

I can tell you right now, if I were the head of Blizzard and was forced to refund all those butthurt whiners, it would be the last bit of business I'd ever do in Korea.

Which is why you're not the head of Blizzard. South Korea is one of the two countries you should be working your ass off to please, seeing how one of your games is their unofficial national sport.

Sure, you can refuse to acknowledge your screw-ups and haughtily withdraw all business from the one country that has nearly religious devotion to one of your franchises... but again, that's why you're not the head of Blizzard.

 

[lacktheknack]

why should i care when a bunch of people who can't play it get butthurt over it and run to the government crying about it

Because you're next. And if not the government, who will defend your rights then?
When this turns out in Blizzard's favor, abusive practices escalate.
Next week YOU won't be able to access servers. Then what will you say?
Cause I guarantee it won't be, "Well, just my luck. Can't use a product I legally purchased. My fault for buying."
You will be here, bitching and whining as though you never liked Blizzard in the first place. And before you even think about telling me that I don't know you or anything about you: I DO know you. There ain't a whole hell of a lot of personality types in the world and I've seen them all.

I don't give a fuck if you want to continue to blow them, but DO NOT come here and pretend like it's our fault, or that it's nothing to do with Blizzard's practice. You want to fellate them? Do it on their message boards. In these parts we tend to give a fuck when a company gets away with abusive practices.
You don't have to care, but don't you DARE try to defend them to us you corporate schill.

you can't know what people will do like that. saying that makes me care even less what happens to you people. trust me this world isn't as black and white as you like to think it is

I know really dark grey when I see it, and I'm seeing it.

 

[Tony2077]

why should i care when a bunch of people who can't play it get butthurt over it and run to the government crying about it

Because you're next. And if not the government, who will defend your rights then?
When this turns out in Blizzard's favor, abusive practices escalate.
Next week YOU won't be able to access servers. Then what will you say?
Cause I guarantee it won't be, "Well, just my luck. Can't use a product I legally purchased. My fault for buying."
You will be here, bitching and whining as though you never liked Blizzard in the first place. And before you even think about telling me that I don't know you or anything about you: I DO know you. There ain't a whole hell of a lot of personality types in the world and I've seen them all.

I don't give a fuck if you want to continue to blow them, but DO NOT come here and pretend like it's our fault, or that it's nothing to do with Blizzard's practice. You want to fellate them? Do it on their message boards. In these parts we tend to give a fuck when a company gets away with abusive practices.
You don't have to care, but don't you DARE try to defend them to us you corporate schill.

you can't know what people will do like that. saying that makes me care even less what happens to you people. trust me this world isn't as black and white as you like to think it is

I know really dark grey when I see it, and I'm seeing it.

i don't care what happens to blizzard but to be honest i care even less about people not being able to play a game. so if you guys ever think of a good reason for me to care I'll stick to what I'm doing for now

 

[lacktheknack]

why should i care when a bunch of people who can't play it get butthurt over it and run to the government crying about it

Because you're next. And if not the government, who will defend your rights then?
When this turns out in Blizzard's favor, abusive practices escalate.
Next week YOU won't be able to access servers. Then what will you say?
Cause I guarantee it won't be, "Well, just my luck. Can't use a product I legally purchased. My fault for buying."
You will be here, bitching and whining as though you never liked Blizzard in the first place. And before you even think about telling me that I don't know you or anything about you: I DO know you. There ain't a whole hell of a lot of personality types in the world and I've seen them all.

I don't give a fuck if you want to continue to blow them, but DO NOT come here and pretend like it's our fault, or that it's nothing to do with Blizzard's practice. You want to fellate them? Do it on their message boards. In these parts we tend to give a fuck when a company gets away with abusive practices.
You don't have to care, but don't you DARE try to defend them to us you corporate schill.

you can't know what people will do like that. saying that makes me care even less what happens to you people. trust me this world isn't as black and white as you like to think it is

I know really dark grey when I see it, and I'm seeing it.

i don't care what happens to blizzard but to be honest i care even less about people not being able to play a game. so if you guys ever think of a good reason for me to care I'll stick to what I'm doing

Not particularly empathetic, are you?

Anyways, you should care because it's Blizzard, who used to be a bastion of high quality entertainment, starting a record of selling damaged goods and refusing to refund them. We're getting on your case because you don't seem to recognize this and keep posting anyways.