Kratos

[Stormshadow243]

I'm curious Yahtzee, since you've played Chains of Olympus, do you believe that Kratos in some small way deserves the humanizing they try to force feed his character in the last hour or so of the game? For the better part of the trilogy, like you mentioned, Kratos is pretty much a nihilistic, misanthropic ass wipe, so does anything he did in Chains of Olympus really matter enough to salvage what's left of the character?

 

[Wolfram23]

Hmm interesting. I didn't play the first 2 GoW games, having been PS2-less and then figuring GoW 3 must be the best one. Looks like 1 was indeed the best as it might have made some sense and given you a reason to play. GoW 3 was pretty silly I didn't know why I was going around killing all the gods it was just like oh..kay... The game basically had to rely purely on it's gameplay and it did an alright job but I just don't find it interesting enough to go back for a 2nd playthrough. Oh well! *waits eagerlly for Red Dead Redemption*

 

[afaceforradio]

Off topic: Heh it's nice to see someone who likes Batman, not sucking Batman's balls for a change.

As for the rest of it: I completely agree. I'm personally not a fan of the GoW series, because like you say it's just an excuse, not a reason with what he does in the latter games but I know someone who is and I still can't understand it!

 

[blalien]

I recall the God of War 3 team saying that they knew the violence was over the top when the test audience laughed at it. With that in mind, there was one scene in GOW3 that made me laugh so hard I had to take a break.

Spoiler

When Kratos jams the Poseidon princess into the gear to hold the door open. Admit it, you all kind of saw it was coming but didn't entirely expect it.

 

[TheScarecrow]

Actually, since your GoW 3 review I've been considering picking up the first game for my playstation 2. At least I'll have the benefit of all tthe meaning to Kratos' killing then.

However, concerning Batman. While I won't argue that Batman's villains are very interesting I think you sold him a bit short. The reason he still fights has simply changed from revenge to "I would like to keep the city safe so bad shit doesn't happen to people". Also, he can't leave this work to the Police as they need to go through red tape and such, plus some of his villains, like Bane, are just a bit too much for the average law man.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Very good points about Kratos. I'd never tried to compare him to Batman before, fearing some sort of universal nerd-driven quantum collapse. But it's a valid comparison, and well-put.

I always compared him to Rambo for that same reason.

In First Blood, Rambo is not the antagonist but a victim of the system just like Kratos in the first game.
But in the sequels he also becomes a parody of himself.

 

[Stabby Joe]

Yahtzee "LOVES" something? Wow...

Snarky comment over. Kratos is one of my favorite game characters but for different reasons. Mostly he is the alpha Western contrast to the Eastern archetype in the sense where they would become all "emo" about their problems, Kratos would go completely overkill.

 

[SamElliot'sMustache]

I mostly agree with the Batman assessment, though his murdered parents weren't his sole motivation for 70 years worth of stories. There have certainly been additions that gave more nuance and depth to the character since then, including the recent films, where Bruce Wayne attempts to become a symbol of hope for Gotham, or the '80's comics where they threw out the idea that he has a psychological need to be Batman. There's also the fact that he uses his billionaire persona to try and fund rehab programs for addicts, as well as give to other charitable causes, so that he's not just 'punch this dude, send to prison, have him escape, repeat.'

But, those added elements tend to be more the exceptions than the rules, introduced when publishers hire a writer with some actual ideas and ambition to write the character. Then it's back to the usual grind of punch-kick-repeat.

 

[The Random One]

I'm impressed at Yahtzee's scale of evil if it starts at Jason Vorhees and goes all the way up to the Girl Scouts.

 

[Falseprophet]

Then of course, not only is this a bit weak, but they try to rub it away by constantly trying to make the gods seem like bigger douchebags. And then it comes to debate: Are the Gods the bigger douchebags because they act out of selfishness to gain whatever they want, oppressing humans and titans alike (even other gods in some cases) if they disobey, or is Kratos the bigger douchebag for trying to find reasons to kill as many people as possible?

My opinion is that the Gods are bigger douchebags. You don't blame a mad dog for killing your family, you blame the guy who let the dog loose (A reference I'm sure many will understand).

To their credit, the ancient Greeks debated the same question, more or less [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro].

I think the reason Kratos kills everything that is alive (or undead at least) is that he is able to do so, without any kind of punishment. Tempted to link Penny Arcade, but I think you know what I mean.
(am looking at you, internets)

Hey, they covered that too! [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_gyges]

I'll stop now.

I'll note that it might have taken 15-20 years, but American TV started having successful shows with casts of quirky characters acting like dicks: Titus, Married With Children, Friends, Seinfeld, Arrested Development.

And I think Batman has crystallized into his present form in the last 20 years; the post-Frank Miller/Tim Burton "darker and edgier" Batman. I personally have a fondness for the 1970s, Denny O'Neill Batman: Batman as a costumed James Bond. Not as silly as the campy-60s Batman, but not as grim and predictable as the modern incarnation. I read the first arc with Ra's al-Ghul and I almost believed Batman was willing to give up Gotham and take his place as Ra's' heir.

There's probably difficulties involved, but I'd like to see more video game heroes who are smart and actually use their wits and know-how to escape situations. I know Dan Brown's stories are inaccurate in 500 different ways, but I appreciate that he writes thrillers starring scholars and scientists instead of soldiers and ninjas. But even in the latter case, Ninja Scroll is one of my favourite anime, because the hero, Jubei, is totally outclassed by all his opponents, and only manages to win because a) he thinks really fast on his feet, and b) the rivalry between his foes is so intense half of them kill each other off before he even meets them.

I'd also like it if we just had more protagonists who convincingly struggle for their victory instead of waltzing through situations because they're so badass. There's a happy middle between stoic sociopathic space marine and whiny JRPG emo teenager.

 

[Supp]

This column makes me think of Stephen Donaldson, who's pretty much made a whole career as an author based on extremely unlikable characters as "heroes"... although they're much less one-dimensional than Kratos, whom I frankly find pretty boring in all his over-the-topness.

Yes, but Thomas Covenant at least TRIES to do the right thing. Then rapes someone and has a sexual relationship with his rape baby while telling the equivalent of a Disney world that they're destined to be royally fucked.

Personally, I could relate to that.

 

[Mr. Mike]

I generally agree with this article, but feel that the Gods get off rather easily in the whole ordeal. They're the ones who recruited Kratos to kill Ares (why they couldn't do it themselves, who knows..) and then basically said, "Yeah, we said we'd wipe away those nightmares, but actually we can't. Thanks anyways!" Then he becomes the God of War, and they realize "Oh shit, the God of War may be a little too ambitious (what a shock!) and now we have to strip him then kill him!" He has every right to be pissed and want revenge, and I'm not sure if Spartans are trained in anything OTHER than killing everyone in their way.

Still, Kratos did start to become a parody of himself in GoW2 and it was cemented in GoW3. He seemed a little too-eager to kill and seemed to lose sight of why he started on this crazy journey (from GoW) in the first place. It was nice to see how the trilogy ended, but I was in no hurry to play through the game again once I was done and promptly mailed my copy back to Gamefly.

Yeah, I remember when I first started playing GoW3 and I thought to myself, "What's his motivation again?" All he ever talks about in the first couple of hours is REVENGE. His family doesn't even get a mention till right near the end. Definitely the weakest story of the bunch, but probably the most fun out of the three.

 

[Vestsao]

I concur.

 

[MR.Spartacus]

I had the same feeling about the "villain" of Saints Row 2. All the horrific things he does are just so clever and evil. The whole story arc with the maroon colored gang being the most heinous. It was nice seeing a protagonist in that sort of game that wasn't a goddamned hypocrite.

raaa my family's dead now you dieee
raaaaaa i'm still angry about that graaahhh
aaaaaarrrgh i'm still so...angry...so now everyone must diiie

hey i think we can all relate to that =} it's straight from the core human instinct

I guess his main problem is that every time he does something cool he gets reminded of how awesome it must have looked when he so stupidly hacked his family in half. In slow-motion no less.

 

[Nicolai]

I agree Kratos is a markedly different man between GoW I and II and that's what makes the story in Chains of Olympus so important. The emotional part of that story was what finally made me understand why Kratos' anger is so personal post GoW I. It really is wrenchingly emotional and powerful enough it made me go back to the beginning and play the whole story again so I could properly understand where it started and where it went.

Spoiler

He's made to choose between the damnation of his happiness and the life beyond war with his daughter he's always wanted and the damnation of the world which he would be personally responsible for. That's not a position you get placed in without being angry at whoever did it to you, in this case Zeus and the entire pantheon he proceeds to rip the heads off.

So he walks out being the angriest god who ever lived, Athena strips him of power to try and give him time to get the anger out without destroying everything and he can't ever forgive what's been done to him.

To compare that relentlessness and anger to Batman's formative childhood experience and the resulting vigilante crusade to use that to turn himself into the greatest weapon for his purpose, is quite fair. I'm not sure Rorschach's mission is to turn himself into the greatest weapon for his purpose. He's not about finely honing himself, he's about as others already said creating a rule of law where there isn't one. He's definitely not relatable to Thomas Covenant the unbelievably whiny leper. Thomas Covenant can not forgive himself for what he did and spends his time moping around making other people's lives miserable. Kratos can't forgive the Gods for what was done to him and spends his time making those Gods' lives shorter.

 

[Lord_Seth]

"Batman set out on his road after his parents were (spoiler alert) shot, but he's been going at it so long now that it has long since ceased to hold up as an explanation"

I'm going to disagree with that. The goal of his becoming Batman was to try to prevent such things from happening to other people. As long as there is crime to be fought, Batman's purpose is unfinished. So yeah, it still holds up as an explanation. You may have a point with the other things about Batman but his original motivation still holds up.

 

[AnonymousBosch]

"When he's around, you know that something is going to get fixed by punching it a lot."

The same could be said for Mark Trail, except nerds don't think he's cool.

 

[OmegaXIII]

Oh, and this may be better fodder for a new thread, but I feel it has a basic connection to the subject matter at hand.

Isn't God of War, as a trilogy, supposed to explain the connection between the end of Greek mythology, and the beginning of Western religion? When Kratos kills literally everyone, and then releases hope to the people, isn't he slaying the Greek idea of polytheism and allowing people to form their own religious system, outside of the reach of the now-dead asshole Gods?

I've always gotten that gist since the first game, when viewing the tapestries in the Temple of Pandora.

There is a theory about that.

Namely that Kratos becomes ruler of the earth.

Then Jesus kicks his ass.

World saved.

Yeah, this sprang immediately to mind

OT: Very good observations from Yahtzee, although i tend to find more interest in Kratos for the reasons given to be disinterested

 

[ResiEvalJohn]

"You know Batman's never going to do anything interesting like fall in love with a goose."

I LOL'ed so hard at this! Good one Yatzee. He has some good points.

 

[Mortrialus]

Sorry Yahtzee, but you're wrong. Kratos is the worst protagonist I've seen in a video game to date. It has nothing to do with how he can be kind of mean spirited(Though at this point he doesn't even really qualify as being evilly affable), or that he isn't very deep. Aside from Marcus from Gears of War(What is it with these games that have War at the end of the title?) Kratos is the ultimate embodiment of what insecure twelve-year-old boys wish they were. It's so prevalent and constant I literally couldn't get past it when playing the games. It's like walking into a creepy kid dreaming about what he wants to be when he grows up; completely masturbatory and immature.

Kratos is quite possibly the most disturbing self insertion fan fiction in a video game.

I'm not really against violent or amoral characters, and there isn't anything wrong with making a antihero or villain protagonist interesting and even sympathetic, or even taking joy in the bad things they do as characters, but the way Kratos's faux machismo is portrayed and how it's the one and only reason why anyone even likes him is just creepy to me. I can't stress the "walking into a creepy 12-year-old's wet dream about what he wants to grow up into" enough. It's so pervasive that every time I've played one of the games I felt like showering afterwords.

He really is a self insertion author avatar, made all the more creepy by how popular he actually is. I remember a certain article from this website where the director talks about the whole purpose of the sex scene was to show the audience how awesome he is.

Sorry Yahtzee, but you're wrong. Kratos is the worst protagonist I've seen in a video game to date. It has nothing to do with how he can be kind of mean spirited(Though at this point he doesn't even really qualify as being evilly affable), or that he isn't very deep. Aside from Marcus from Gears of War(What is it with these games that have War at the end of the title?) Kratos is the ultimate embodiment of what insecure twelve-year-old boys wish they were. It's so prevalent and constant I literally couldn't get past it when playing the games. It's like walking into a creepy kid dreaming about what he wants to be when he grows up; completely masturbatory and immature.

Kratos is quite possibly the most disturbing self insertion fan fiction in a video game.

I'm not really against violent or amoral characters, and there isn't anything wrong with making a antihero or villain protagonist interesting and even sympathetic, or even taking joy in the bad things they do as characters, but the way Kratos's faux machismo is portrayed and how it's the one and only reason why anyone even likes him is just creepy to me. I can't stress the "walking into a creepy 12-year-old's wet dream about what he wants to grow up into" enough. It's so pervasive that every time I've played one of the games I felt like showering afterwords.

He really is a self insertion author avatar, made all the more creepy by how popular he is. I remember a certain article from this website where the director talks about the whole purpose of the sex scene was to show the audience how awesome he is.

http://www.destructoid.com/oh-no-god-of-war-iii-almost-didn-t-have-a-sex-mini-game-165571.phtml

Stig Asmussen just rambles on like a lunatic "WE WEREN'T SURE IF WE WANTED TO ADD A SEX MINI GAME IN THE THIRD INSTALLMENT. WE DID IT IN THE FIRST GAME TO SHOW HOW BIG OF A MAN I-ER, KRATOS IS, BUT THIS TIME EVERYONE SHOULD ALREADY KNOW HOW BIG OF A MAN I-ER, KRATOS IS."

The other directors were the exactly the same. If you watch some of the discussions with the development team they rage on and on about how much they want the games to make them feel like a big man.

Its fine to make a villain protagonist and make them really funny, entertaining, bad ass, or what have you. But these games aren't really about a villain protagonist, they're about the creators and the fans trying to get off on some bizarre masculinity wish fulfillment which I can only assume is overcompensating for something. I'm surprised no one else calls the games out for this.