lets collectively lol @ these "I need feminism because..." pics

[AwesomeDave]

I don't need feminism.

What we do need though, is acceptance for stepping outside gender norms.

I like a couple of Feminism's ideas, but the whole movement itself is corrupted.

Like with every goddamn movement you are going to have your outliers, folks that take the central ideas to an extreme. Most of the time, they are idiots. However, if you believe in and support any of these:

-equal pay for equal work
-a woman's right to do with her body what she wants
-a woman's worth is not inherently tied to her ability to reproduce and a man's desire to copulate with her
- a fair representation of women and men in management positions
- a women or men having to endure sexual harassment to maintain or progress through their career.

then you are feminist. If you believe in none of these, you are huge dick.

So wait... believing in equality makes me a feminist? By that logic, since I believe in equality for both sexes, wouldn't that also make me a supporter of the MRA?

If women want equality, stop acting like you're different than men. God shit like this makes me sick... Be a fucking human being, not your gender.

Captcha- tastes good (im not going near that with a 10 ft pole on this thread)

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

Rape Culture:

"Hey everyone, this one specific horrible event is actually everyone's fault. You should all feel bad because you all contribute to every single rape just by being alive."

Nice straw man, buddy. Were you working on that one for a while?

Actually, rape culture = "Hey, you know that rape? Turns out is wasn't the rapist's fault after all. It was the rape victim. She was asking for it"

Rape culture is the concept that the average person perpetuates the "she was asking for it" concept through social and cultural means.

In other words, rape culture points a finger at me and says that I contribute to rape culture for being a man. That's insane.

Very few people ACTUALLY believe that a girl who wears certain clothes is "asking for it" (not enough to call it "rape culture"), and you know what, if a girl is a at a party with a lot of drinking going on and some equally drunk guy has sex with her, it's not rape. If she is conscious then who cares if she's black out drunk, she's making a decision to sleep with a guy. You are responsible for the decisions you make while inebriated.

I've been in the position where a girl came up to me at a party, pulled me downstairs to her room, begged me to fuck her, and then passed out. When she woke up, she told her boyfriend (who she neglected to mention the night prior) that I'd raped her.

After a long conversation that was almost a huge brawl, he left her for being a whore (and we're actually good friends now). However, she was so infuriated by this that she took the matter to fucking court.

Yeah, I won the case, but I had to go to jail on a rape trial because at first glance, it's ALWAYS the guy's fault.

Rape culture my ass...

 

[Ernil Menegil]

[It exists in all genders and in all cultures.

And in the US government [http://feministphilosophers.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/gop_rape_advisory_megachart.gif].

Some people say that it´s the fault of the raped that they got raped. Those people contribute to rape culture. Okay. I can buy that. Now please explain how someone who has never said anything of the sort is still contributing to this so-called "rape culture", then we can talk.

Go back to the first page and actually read the sign that the guy is holding up. Does it say, "I automatically contribute to rape culture because I am a man"?

I'll save you the click. The sign simply states that he contributes to rape culture without knowing it, as do many people. When someone says something like, "If you don't want to get raped, you shouldn't walk around late at night/wear that skirt/lead guys on," they are contributing to rape culture. Chances are that they will have no idea that they're doing it. Chances are they think rape is an awful, terrible thing and their statements are well-intentioned. This doesn't change the fact that statements like this put the responsibility for preventing rape onto the victims, and also perpetuate the misandrist view that men "just can't help themselves" when they see an attractive, vulnerable girl.

Thank you, boots, for being a voice of reason, but really, as my captcha says; let go. As you said in the first pace, it's time to leave. It was then, it is now. You are changing no one's mind here, no matter how much we would like to.

Just ... just rest, mate. Really. There are better, more productive places where such arguments can be ministered, and it most definitely is not here. Seeking a discussion on feminism thought and theory in here is an exercise in futility.

 

[Ernil Menegil]

Rape culture is the concept that the average person perpetuates the "she was asking for it" concept through social and cultural means.

In other words, rape culture points a finger at me and says that I contribute to rape culture for being a man. That's insane.

Very few people ACTUALLY believe that a girl who wears certain clothes is "asking for it" (not enough to call it "rape culture"), and you know what, if a girl is a at a party with a lot of drinking going on and some equally drunk guy has sex with her, it's not rape. If she is conscious then who cares if she's black out drunk, she's making a decision to sleep with a guy. You are responsible for the decisions you make while inebriated.

I've been in the position where a girl came up to me at a party, pulled me downstairs to her room, begged me to fuck her, and then passed out. When she woke up, she told her boyfriend (who she neglected to mention the night prior) that I'd raped her.

After a long conversation that was almost a huge brawl, he left her for being a whore (and we're actually good friends now). However, she was so infuriated by this that she took the matter to fucking court.

Yeah, I won the case, but I had to go to jail on a rape trial because at first glance, it's ALWAYS the guy's fault.

Rape culture my ass...

I would definitely say you suffered a severe injustice, and I would definitely say that the girl was so in the wrong it is frightening, but tell me, why do you say "rape culture my ass" when you were a blatant victim of it? Wouldn't you say you, yourself, were the victim of this rape culture? After all, part of that very culture is the notion that men can't control themselves when they see a hot chick in a sexy outfit, which obviously leads to blaming men at once and leading to the very misandric notion that men neither have the brains or the control to keep from raping, making them automatically guilty of it upon accusation, as you were.

As the captcha says, man, walk free. Think about it.

 

[Ernil Menegil]

He was still tossed into jail outright. I don't know about you, boots, but I would say that is a pretty big foul of justice systems, and it's a foul that happens often in rape cases, where the wrong person can often be found tried, convicted and slammed. The accusation alone is injustice enough when one considers the public and private perspectives of a person. Such a thing can end relationships, break families, which not even a "not guilty" verdict can clear.

So yes, I would say it is tremendously unfair. Rape is no light matter or word to bandy about, and criminal justice systems across the world should be dilligent and fair in investigating the veracity of claims made, under risk of trivializing the issue in the eyes of the law and society itself.

 

[repeating integers]

I'll save you the click. The sign simply states that he contributes to rape culture without knowing it, as do many people. When someone says something like, "If you don't want to get raped, you shouldn't walk around late at night/wear that skirt/lead guys on," they are contributing to rape culture. Chances are that they will have no idea that they're doing it. Chances are they think rape is an awful, terrible thing and their statements are well-intentioned. This doesn't change the fact that statements like this put the responsibility for preventing rape onto the victims, and also perpetuate the misandrist view that men "just can't help themselves" when they see an attractive, vulnerable girl.

Part of it is down to practicality, though. Certain towns are bad with crime - in such towns, going out in a short skirt or what have you probably would be inadvisable as it'd put the girl in question at risk of rape. Is advising the girl not to do that in these places contributing to rape culture or helping her avoid being the victim of a horrible crime?

 

[Phasmal]

I'll save you the click. The sign simply states that he contributes to rape culture without knowing it, as do many people. When someone says something like, "If you don't want to get raped, you shouldn't walk around late at night/wear that skirt/lead guys on," they are contributing to rape culture. Chances are that they will have no idea that they're doing it. Chances are they think rape is an awful, terrible thing and their statements are well-intentioned. This doesn't change the fact that statements like this put the responsibility for preventing rape onto the victims, and also perpetuate the misandrist view that men "just can't help themselves" when they see an attractive, vulnerable girl.

Part of it is down to practicality, though. Certain towns are bad with crime - in such towns, going out in a short skirt or what have you probably would be inadvisable as it'd put the girl in question at risk of rape. Is advising the girl not to do that in these places contributing to rape culture or helping her avoid being the victim of a horrible crime?

It's saying `Make sure he rapes some other girl`.
All in all, not that helpful.
(And also, women KNOW that shit. They don't need to be told over and over and rape magically doesn't stop happening if someone wears jeans instead of a mini skirt).

 

[awesomeClaw]

[It exists in all genders and in all cultures.

And in the US government [http://feministphilosophers.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/gop_rape_advisory_megachart.gif].

Some people say that it´s the fault of the raped that they got raped. Those people contribute to rape culture. Okay. I can buy that. Now please explain how someone who has never said anything of the sort is still contributing to this so-called "rape culture", then we can talk.

Go back to the first page and actually read the sign that the guy is holding up. Does it say, "I automatically contribute to rape culture because I am a man"?

I'll save you the click. The sign simply states that he contributes to rape culture without knowing it, as do many people. When someone says something like, "If you don't want to get raped, you shouldn't walk around late at night/wear that skirt/lead guys on," they are contributing to rape culture. Chances are that they will have no idea that they're doing it. Chances are they think rape is an awful, terrible thing and their statements are well-intentioned. This doesn't change the fact that statements like this put the responsibility for preventing rape onto the victims, and also perpetuate the misandrist view that men "just can't help themselves" when they see an attractive, vulnerable girl.

As I said, in all cultures and genders, and perhaps I should add "in every aspect of society."

Let me get one thing straight - genuinly blaming the victime for rape is an awful, disgusting thing. But I don´t think that´s what most people are doing. I just think that they haven´t thought about how they expressed themselves. It is simply a piece of advice. If I tell my friend not to walk into the ghetto at night with hundred-dollar bills sticking out of his pocket if he doesn´t want to get robbed, am I contributing to "Burglar Culture?" If I tell my other friend not to agree to buying viagra on the internet if he doesn´t want to be scammed, am I contributing to "Fraud Culture"? And at last, if I don´t say anything ridiculous and unproven (Such as "don´t wear x clothing or do y while flirting!") is it wrong of me to give sensible advice in the form of "Don´t go out at night without anyone with you if you don´t want to get raped."? If I said "It´s your fault if you get raped at night", that´s a diffrent matter, but as it goes, I´m just hittin´ my homie up with some advice-cookies.

And of course, so no words can be put in my mouth, judges berating the rape victims choice of clothing is cruel and stupid. But we need to realise that we giving out advice, even if it is faulty /= blaming the victim.

 

[Phasmal]

Yeah, apparently those rapists are really turned on by Potterheads.

Of course, and all rape is stranger rape except when it isn't and then you shouldn't have trusted a man around you in the first place but not wanting a dude around you is totally paranoid and you totally shouldn't have been doing/wearing that thing.
And I've gone cross-eyed.

 

[repeating integers]

-snippinism-

Now now, don't get me wrong - there's no way to excuse anyone saying "she asked for it". It's a bullshit excuse to use on any crime, let alone rape.

Still, you guys make good points. I like that you bring up the issue that bothers lots of people about feminism (the idea that it blames your average male for rapes happening - it doesn't, obviously).

 

[Palmerama]

I read the images as sarcastic. Was I supposed to? Gotten quite confused since reading this thread.

Not going to say anything else.

 

[awesomeClaw]

As I said, in all cultures and genders, and perhaps I should add "in every aspect of society."

Let me get one thing straight - genuinly blaming the victime for rape is an awful, disgusting thing. But I don´t think that´s what most people are doing. I just think that they haven´t thought about how they expressed themselves. It is simply a piece of advice. If I tell my friend not to walk into the ghetto at night with hundred-dollar bills sticking out of his pocket if he doesn´t want to get robbed, am I contributing to "Burglar Culture?" If I tell my other friend not to agree to buying viagra on the internet if he doesn´t want to be scammed, am I contributing to "Fraud Culture"? And at last, if I don´t say anything ridiculous and unproven (Such as "don´t wear x clothing or do y while flirting!") is it wrong of me to give sensible advice in the form of "Don´t go out at night without anyone with you if you don´t want to get raped."? If I said "It´s your fault if you get raped at night", that´s a diffrent matter, but as it goes, I´m just hittin´ my homie up with some advice-cookies.

And of course, so no words can be put in my mouth, judges berating the rape victims choice of clothing is cruel and stupid. But we need to realise that we giving out advice, even if it is faulty /= blaming the victim.

But it puts the responsibility for preventing the rape in the first place on the victim. A big element of rape culture is teaching people how not to get raped, instead of teaching people not to rape.

You might think that the idea of teaching people not to rape is OK, but many rapists don't even think what they're doing counts as rape. There's another thread in OT about the "Nice Guys of OKC" site, which listed the dozens of dating profiles of guys who said that "A no is just a yes that needs a little convincing", that they would take advantage of a friend who was incapacitated by drugs or alcohol, or who genuinely believe that there are situations in which another person is obligated to have sex with them. These guys aren't criminals or psychos. They're just average Joes who think this attitude is normal.

Besides which, there are a whole bunch of problems with giving people advice about clothing and what times they should go out and what they shouldn't do whilst flirting:

1) As Phasmal said, when you teach someone how to avoid being raped all you're really saying is "make sure they rape someone else instead".
2) Most instances of rape are committed by someone that the victim knows, rather than by a stranger. Another big element of rape culture is the number of people who think it "doesn't count" if the attacker is a partner or spouse.
3) Wearing jeans instead of a skirt will not prevent rape, as the picture I posted above demonstrates. All this talk of short skirts and cleavage just perpetuates the myth that only "slutty-looking" girls get raped, which is fundamentally untrue and also implies that the girl was somehow asking for it by dressing in a deliberately seductive way.

Of course they´re average joes who think the attitude is normal. No person ever willingly and knowingly does something they consider evil/immoral. That´s pretty obvious.

1. We all got our own problems. Ain´t your business if someone you don´t know gets raped and you avoid it. We have a neat expression here in Sweden - "Den enes död, den andres bröd." It (roughly) means "One mans death is another mans fortune." That´s what I´d say this is.

2. It counts. If a person say it doesn´t count, they are according to us, wrong. But what else are we going to do about it? Force them to change their opinion? That´s questionable. All we can really do is take the discussion, and if they don´t listen, then we simply have to accept that. (Until the break the law, at least.)

3. This is one point where you are in the wrong. When did I say that I propogated a specific dress style to avoid rape? I even said such an assumption is incorrect in my post!

About "A no is a yes that just needs a little convicing." To qoute Joel from The Last Of Us trailer - "You are treading on some mighty thin ice here." So pressuring someone into sex is rape now? That´s questionable. Dickish, yes, but rape?

We will never get rid of rapists. Best solution is to minimise the chances of a sucessful rape.