Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument

[mad825]

It also doesn't really help then women tend to dress provocatively.

Ah yes, victim blaming, thank you for the example.

Oh look who's grasping for straws.

Dressing provocatively has and is long been associated with trying to attract a sexual mate. Some guys get the wrong message and quite frankly every person has a good degree of responsibility for their own safety which apparently doesn't seem to apply to women. You reap what you sow.

I am not victim blaming, it's a factor among many others, drugs is another.

 

[scorn the biomage]

Reproductive rights,

Do you mean sterilisation or paternity leave? If you mean the former, then you don't know your geography and if you mean the latter then it isn't black and white although it is expected from the employer for the men to continue working.

sexual harassment

It's expected for the men to make the first move from men and women. It also doesn't really help then women tend to dress provocatively.

equal representation

For men or for women? There are two side on that matter and often polarised in terms of profession. Could you be more specific other than naming a generic term that apply to both of the sexes?

institutionalised sexism in general

Another generic term that apply to both of the sexes. Prejudice comes in positive and negative forms but are both equally harmful.

[http://media.photobucket.com/user/BlckRose270/media/377442591.gif.html]

Here is a clear example of what op was talking about and further more you also give us good text book example of slut shaming.

 

[mad825]

Here is a clear example of what op was talking about and further more you also give us good text book example of slut shaming.

Care to explain? I'm all ears just for you. Slut shaming? You're putting words in my mouth.

 

[Fox12]

I think there's a major point to be made about circumcision. It's a rather barbaric ritual, wherein the benefits seem to be outweighed by the negatives.

In any case, I think the answer is to fight against gender stereotypes in general. Feminists and MRA's should be able to theoretically work together on this. The problem is that, if you try to push this, then your biggest opponents will be other MRA's. They'll say that there's a war on men, and that the feminists are trying to contribute to the feminization and psychological castration of America. Then someone will inevitably ask what's so wrong about being a man, blah blah blah.

These are the most likely the same men that only bring up mens rights as a way to argue against feminism.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Men and woman have their issues to deal with. An yes those that doesn't make the complaint of the opposite gender any less relevant. I think its a good thing men have followed woman and being able to discuss their own issues being that its seen as a weakness for men. I remember going out to a club and this drunk woman was grabbing mens crotches and laughing. An it was fairly shocking having some strange woman groping you. But, as a man, both men and woman just see that as a fun joke. Where as if i went up and groped random woman I bet no man or woman would see it as a fun joke. Also if you read the paper recently a 20 year old woman got away with having sex with an 11 year old boy because the dad said he was up for it - a man would never be treated the same if he abused an 11 year old girl. Now they both should have been imprisoned for a long time, but it seems boys/men are often labeled as wanting sex all the time and getting it as a young boy is seen as a badge of honour and not the rape that it is.

While its good to communicate and talk about issues effecting both men and woman, its wrong to belittle a womens experience and issues just because men have that same issue as well. Maybe if men understood and discussed issues woman face maybe this would reflect back on men and help them deal with their own issues also.

 

[Thaluikhain]

In any case, I think the answer is to fight against gender stereotypes in general. Feminists and MRA's should be able to theoretically work together on this. The problem is that, if you try to push this, then your biggest opponents will be other MRA's. They'll say that there's a war on men, and that the feminists are trying to contribute to the feminization and psychological castration of America. Then someone will inevitably ask what's so wrong about being a man, blah blah blah.

These are the most likely the same men that only bring up mens rights as a way to argue against feminism.

Yeah, that's the tragedy of the MRM, it (on the whole) sees the best way to improve men's rights is to prevent improvement of women's, or to reduce them back to some imagined paradise version of the 50s. Now, of course, this is not true of all, but most MRAs are reactionaries.

 

[Erttheking]

Here is a clear example of what op was talking about and further more you also give us good text book example of slut shaming.

Care to explain? I'm all ears just for you. Slut shaming? You're putting words in my mouth.

Actually this is a clear cut example of what I was talking about. When the person you were talking to brought up that women have to deal with institutional sexism, you brought up the fact that men have to deal with that too. As a counter-argument to disprove the validity of feminism. In the thread that I made to voice my frustration with people doing that, as not only does it belittle the struggles of women and feminists for no real reason, it reduces the plights of men to a counter-argument.

As for slut shamming, when the person you were talking to brought up how women have to deal with sexual harassment, you gave two reasons for it. One of them was that women dressed provocatively, implying that this problem would be lesser if women didn't do that. Pretty clear cut case of slut shamming. Not to mention I have to question whether this is even accurate. Is there any evidence that dressing provocatively increases the chances of sexual harassment?

 

[Fox12]

Reproductive rights,

Do you mean sterilisation or paternity leave? If you mean the former, then you don't know your geography and if you mean the latter then it isn't black and white although it is expected from the employer for the men to continue working.

sexual harassment

It's expected for the men to make the first move from men and women. It also doesn't really help then women tend to dress provocatively.

...

I am not victim blaming, it's a factor among many others, drugs is another.

"Victim blaming occurs when the victim of a crime or any wrongful act is held entirely or partially responsible for the harm that befell them. The study of victimology seeks to mitigate the perception of victims as responsible."

Uh, what you just described is literally the definition of victim blaming. Also, unwanted sexual harassment is unacceptable, from either gender. I don't care what a person is dressed like. The fault lies with the person performing a crime, not the victim of a crime.

equal representation

For men or for women? There are two side on that matter and often polarised in terms of profession. Could you be more specific other than naming a generic term that apply to both of the sexes?

institutionalised sexism in general

Another generic term that apply to both of the sexes. Prejudice comes in positive and negative forms but are both equally harmful.

The proper response is to end instances of institutionalized sexism, where it exists, for both sexes. If most MRA's actually cared about these issues then they could probably work with feminism to end the problem. Equal right's isn't a zero sum game. You don't lose rights by giving them to others. The fact that you brought this up as a counter-argument to OP's posts kind of proves his point : /

 

[Hero in a half shell]

I think it may be a Western society thing more than a gendered thing.

In the West meritocracy is pretty much ingrained into society; You work hard, and you will succeed. If you fail it's because you didn't want it hard enough.

The problems that plague men do not plague all men in the same way that women's problems tend to affect a wider range of women.
Women are told that the pay gap affects them all for example, and other issues such as domestic violence could happen to any of them at any time and are completely out of their hands.

But when you look at men's issues;
You don't have to worry about prison rape if you just stay out of prison - It's their own fault for doing the crime!
You don't need to worry about homelessness if you just work hard at your job - It's their own fault for not working!
You don't need to worry about domestic abuse shelters - You can't be emotionally hurt, you're a man!
You don't need to worry about suicide - Only depressed people commit suicide and as we said, you have no emotions. You're a Man!

These generally are all issues that come about when the person is down and out, and society tells us that if men get down and out it's because they were lazy, stupid or both. So men don't tend to worry about men's issues because firstly we imagine that the men seen to be suffering from them are never going to be us, and the men that are couldn't cut it in society.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Hm...you raise a good point. I'd still argue it's a gendered thing, but after reading your post I'd revise it into saying that it's a gendered thing heavily influenced by other values. Really the two heavily intertwine.

 

[Lightspeaker]

It's never been "acceptable" to speak up and complain.

Except you are drastically misrepresenting the inherent imbalance in acceptability over discussing a number of subjects in light of the relative expectations society has for men and women and how they are presented in society. Rape is the classic example. Rape of women by men is almost always (rightfully) presented as a terrible, terrible thing. Rape of men by women is presented as a punchline or a metaphorical high-five to the victim; its presented as non-serious and trivial.

You can't fight for change and whine about the price of change in the same breath, and frankly there is no fight for change here, just the whine.

I have literally no idea what you're talking about here. It seems entirely irrelevant to the very real issue of societal expectations and the consequent peer pressure to never speak out.

 

[mad825]

Is there any evidence that dressing provocatively increases the chances of sexual harassment?

Increasing the chances? That's a really wrong assumption to make but I would argue it effects the severity for some people. Sexual harassment is such a generic term, it could mean whistling at a girl on the street to full-on physical contact with the added fact it was unwanted.

The people who do volatile the physical boundaries, were they good people to begin with? Do they have a history with illegal activities? Opportunistic behaviours are prone to stimuli.

 

[Erttheking]

Is there any evidence that dressing provocatively increases the chances of sexual harassment?

Increasing the chances? That's a really wrong assumption to make but I would argue it effects the severity for some people. Sexual harassment is such a generic term, it could mean whistling at a girl on the street to full-on physical contact with the added fact it was unwanted.

The people who do volatile the physical boundaries, were they good people to begin with? Do they have a history with illegal activities?

I ask again, is there any evidence to this? Is there anything to suggest that wearing sexy clothing increases the severity of sexual harassment? And it's still slut shamming, saying that it gets worse because of how the woman was dressed is still saying that the woman's suffering is coming from what she wore.

That's not relevant to the topic

 

[the December King]

So, are we going to talk about some male issues now as a discussion topic?

What the hell, I'll start... at least I think it's a male issue, though maybe not super-far reaching.

I want to take a Brazilian Ju Jitsu class offered locally- I know the instructor and he seems quite proficient. I've wanted to learn a more physical martial art for a while now, as Iaido is all well and good, but might not be the most practical in terms of fitness or self-defense.

The thing is, is that I flat-out refuse to grapple a woman. I just won't do it, and once more, it's not because I think I'm going to hurt her. I don't want to lose in a physical altercation to a woman, even if it's not technically a fight but a series of rules and forms that we all are learning. Simple as that- as a man, I feel it would emasculate me, and make me quite furious, yet appear pathetic and weak to all who watched it happen. This is a part of masculinity that I can sense is debilitating, but I simply cannot seem to get past it- in my mind, ideally, men should be stronger and more combat-ready. I'm not, mind you, but I wish to be, and I'm afraid that getting beaten by a woman while attempting to reach my goal would feel disgraceful.

I've explained this to the instructor, and he has suggested private classes to avoid rolling with female practitioners, as there is no all-male class- though there is an all-female class. I'm not bitter about that, by the way- I didn't want to come off that way, especially in light of my hang up. I get that some women might not want to grapple with men and would want a separate class, and that those reasons aren't the same as my wanting to be in an all-male class.

There, the genie is out of the bottle, I guess. Just a little slice of life.

 

[cleric of the order]

possibly being ostracized by our peers if we don't fit into a stupid overly masculine stereotype,

dude no offense but this sounds kinda salty. depends on where you've grown up but seriously, I'm a massive nerd and when i took weightlifting the jocks were actually pretty swell, harping on people is what they do. you got to roll with the licks man.

a massive stigma against acting feminine lest we be accused of having the gay (Seriously, this irritates me so much I want to make out with the nearest man just to make a point.)

I dunno man, we live in one of the most accepting points in history for these sorts of things.
though on gay i should point out that words of that type are often used against people that fit the term.
Not necessarily gay but the type to be offended by it are often very...prone to being called that.

So why the Hell is all of this only ever brought up to shut up someone else up?

my city is trying to bring in man spreading laws.
and recently i think a battered men's shelter closed roughly in the same time frame
men have a high suicide rate, and all the things you mentioned BUT WE FOCUS ON HOW PEOPLE SIT FOR CHRISSAKE.
people have actually been arrested for this in New York if i am not mistaken.
either way a disproportionate amount of time has been spent here than helping people in need.
At this point the groups that should be campaigning for the rights of men and women, are not focusing on the right issues and if we are to have one vehicle with the institutional power to do that,(feminism) then personally i think perhaps the complainants leveled at my associates and well betters are reasonable.

Seriously, I rarely see anyone saying ANYTHING about this stuff is when someone else is trying to talk about their problems (Yes I'm talking about feminism here, but I'm trying to avoid it talking about it because mentioning it always causes the argument to be derailed). And that drives me insane. Logically I thought that the people who bring them up as counter-arguments would really be invested in male problems, but when there isn't a discussion about feminism going on, they never really get brought up.

Not all people can do this but see.
I certainly don't have the time and money to create a homeless center or to help with these problems but there are movements that you named that are supposedly there to help issues like that.

I had a bit of a bullying problem in high school because I was the quiet shy kid and not a loud abrasive asshole,

maybe you were just bad at taking bullying, i got bullied for most of my life and i was a nerd, portly an autistic.
however when i stopped giving a shit during grade 11 a lot of things changed. The shit faces that were bullying me left me alone, I got on pretty good terms with them and went about my shit.

I've had people say something to the effect of "Oh, well I guess you think you're some sort of exception to the gender"

weird, in the middle ages and for quite a while after it was always assumed that women had no power over their sex, and were horndogs. see the witch trials and the seduction by satan. we've gone full circle ain't we.

when I mentioned that I wasn't a massive horndog constantly trying to get laid during my teenage years, and just yesterday an old woman was grabbing my hands at work, if the genders had been reversed the police would've been called. And yet no one really brings up these problems unless it's to shut up someone else's arguments.

you'd still have to call the police. dude are you going to call the police.

Do you know of any places where they're talked about in a constructive way?

I would hope A voice for men does it. but I can't care enough to check them out.
if not i am sure there are egalitarian sites that focus on it.

Why do you think they're never talked about?

Two things
you know Erin Pizzey, lovely woman and an exceptional human being to from my perspective.
I suggest looking at her talks on youtube if you can, don't skimp out and go to wikipedia. The woman cares, and i mean really cares about an issue i am personally concerned with and has handled these sorts of things.
but the rub is she got some violence for shit like that
alternatively on the internet
remember that thread for kids that didn't have fathers?
remember how that turned out?
these sorts of things attract MRA and feminists and what you get is pretty obvious

How do you think that can be fixed?

no and I'm not sure if it will ever be fixed in a good way.

(Oh, and something sad? The most I've seen online talking about male problems is a feminist Tumblr account I follow. Yeah, as much as people like to talk about Tumblr as being Misandric, all the talking about male problems that I've seen online have come from Tumblr.)

and how do they tackle it, what do they talk about.
More importantly what do they do about it.
a very common statement in the media today is "Start a conversation" like it means something.
All it does is provoke action, someone has to act and the implication that that these halfwits have done something for talking to people is sop. the people that had the strength of character and personality to stand up alone and work, help and save people are the people who have done things. Not the modern day twaddle that sit barking back and forth to each other like toothless dogs.
The best thing in my opinion you my friend can do for people is to help individuals.
Go to a soup kitchen, sign up for youth problems or get rich enough to fund this shit.
Because the government doesn't give two shits.

Yeah...that's part of the whole stupid masculine ideals. Men who talk about their problems are pussies.

and i think they are rather noble ideals.
To strive for individuality and to be as self sufficient possible.
In this case a man who is unwilling to stand and take action on their problems is a coward. though one should give a reckoning to the limited agency of a person gassing on about one's problems without a solution, plan or otherwise is masturbatory or done in a way to promote other people to act upon your behalf rather than with your assistance.
But that is a bit of an extreme because I know as sure as shit lads'll complain a bit over a beer or the like. all all that much, complaining and whinging on about your problems is fucking selfish and annoying.

Also I've never seen those people called pussies for doing that unless they were quite well wimpy and carried themselves as such.

 

[the December King]

So, are we going to talk about some male issues now as a discussion topic?

What the hell, I'll start... at least I think it's a male issue, though maybe not super-far reaching.

I want to take a Brazilian Ju Jitsu class offered locally- I know the instructor and he seems quite proficient. I've wanted to learn a more physical martial art for a while now, as Iaido is all well and good, but might not be the most practical in terms of fitness or self-defense.

The thing is, is that I flat-out refuse to grapple a woman. I just won't do it, and once more, it's not because I think I'm going to hurt her. I don't want to lose in a physical altercation to a woman, even if it's not technically a fight but a series of rules and forms that we all are learning. Simple as that- as a man, I feel it would emasculate me, and make me quite furious, yet appear pathetic and weak to all who watched it happen. This is a part of masculinity that I can sense is debilitating, but I simply cannot seem to get past it- in my mind, ideally, men should be stronger and more combat-ready. I'm not, mind you, but I wish to be, and I'm afraid that getting beaten by a woman while attempting to reach my goal would feel disgraceful.

I've explained this to the instructor, and he has suggested private classes to avoid rolling with female practitioners, as there is no all-male class- though there is an all-female class. I'm not bitter about that, by the way- I didn't want to come off that way, especially in light of my hang up. I get that some women might not want to grapple with men and would want a separate class, and that those reasons aren't the same as my wanting to be in an all-male class.

There, the genie is out of the bottle, I guess. Just a little slice of life.

I can understand where you're coming from, but I wonder if you actually got into a class with those women if your view might change? It won't be a woman you're fighting after all, it'll be someone with a name, someone you know. Ideally it'll be someone you respect for their talent and strength. There's no shame in losing to someone in martial arts, it's a learning experience. I bet that if you actually got into that fight, and lost, your reaction would surprise you. You'd want to win, but you'd have the respect for your opponent that comes from a fight, you know what I mean?

Some things, you have to dive into headfirst.

I will certainly not say it's out of the question, that's for sure. And yes, I'd like to think that I gave it my best and lost to a better opponent, I'd realize that and learn from it, and move on, especially the earlier matches where it's all about learning, really. But it's a game of perception, and I'm having a lot of difficulty accepting this point of view. Losing feels bad to some extent no matter who you are against, and not appearing weak in front of others is a core element of masculinity. It's a dicey pickle, to be sure.

Thanks for the response, I kinda stuck my neck out there!

 

[Zenn3k]

Because men inherently are not big complainers, we deal with our problems and keep them OUR problems for the most part.

Women complain CONSTANTLY, so in order to counter them, we finally let out a big sigh and explain that no, you don't have it worse, in fact, you have it the best, stfu already.

 

[Batou667]

snip

Yeah, I'd say that's a legitimate example of a way society doesn't cater to (all) men, and it's one I brought up before a few times. Basically, it's the idea that all social spaces should cater to women as a matter of equality, but simultaneously there should exist female-only spaces for those contexts where male presence is for whatever reason undesirable. It effectively denies the existence (or perhaps just legitimacy) of any males who want to temporarily be in an all-male space - whether that be be for letting their hair down, male bonding, due to social anxiety, whatever. The common objections, IIRC, are that a) women deserve a slice of the pie - all pies - because, duh, equality, and b) any activity that a man wouldn't feel comfortable doing in the presence of a woman is by definition an activity they shouldn't be doing, period (only the guilty need fear judgement, etc).

It's one of the sleights of hand of modern deconstructivist feminism. "Masculine" has been redefined as being toxic, destructive, emotionally stunted, negative; and given that seldom-contested premise, who wouldn't want to tear down masculinity? But on the other hand, keep your hands off our femininity. Being female is something to be celebrated after generations of repression, don't you know.

It's a paradox. It's a paradigm that simultaneously erodes the gender binary, while ultimately relying on the gender binary to justify its existence.

 

[Thaluikhain]

and other issues such as domestic violence could happen to any of them at any time and are completely out of their hands.

While there's truth in what you say, I disagree with this part. Women are routinely told they are to blame for domestic violence. Hell, in the US, women are imprisoned because their partner abused them and their kids.

 

[Rahkshi500]

Pretty much reasons of what others have explained. Another reason why I think is that a lot still have the mindset that we're in a post-modern society where everything is equal or better, or at least has become as good as we can possibly make it, because the world is a messed up place and we end up coming to accept that's how it is and we have to deal with that.