Mar-A-Lago Raid

CastletonSnob

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This wasn't a "raid". This was a court-ordered search.

It's Trump's fault for 1) taking those documents in the first place, and 2) refusing to comply with the authorities.
 
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SilentPony

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Problem is he wasn't the first, and won't be the last. These people tried to storm the Capital and assassinate the Vice President, and the Secret Service and Pentagon were in on it. Getting the home address of some judges or members of a jury will be piss easy for them. Hell here in Missouri before the primary we had Republican radio adds where the candidates vowed to mobilize the National Guard to march on Washington to "protect the Constitution" which is code for have a Republican president. This was on public radio. This is what they're saying out in the open.
I guess we're going one step closer to the Grimdark far future - we have a Death Cult now!

and as always the Democrats are the abused spouse in the corner, telling themselves the Republicans don't mean it, it was just a one time thing because of the stress of the holidays and they really have changed, they would never do it again.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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I find it more likely that he thought he was the hero of his own action film, the good guy who was going to shoot all the bad guys and get a parade. Trump supporters are dangerously insane and Republicans are egging them on in the hopes that all their political enemies die before the crazies do.
 

Silvanus

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and as always the Democrats are the abused spouse in the corner, telling themselves the Republicans don't mean it, it was just a one time thing because of the stress of the holidays and they really have changed, they would never do it again.
I don't disagree with this characterisation, but what would you say the Democrats should do? They're in a very restricted position, and the few actions they could take would harm them in the midterms and end up assisting the Republicans.
 

SilentPony

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I don't disagree with this characterisation, but what would you say the Democrats should do? They're in a very restricted position, and the few actions they could take would harm them in the midterms and end up assisting the Republicans.
I mean letting Republicans openly say shut down the FBI and calling for the arrest/impeachment of the AG, and saying they will raid all of Biden's homes come 2024 is probably not the way to go.
I mean a dude tried to storm an FBI building and then died in a shootout with cops, and he was at the Jan 6th terrorist attacks. Its pretty clear what Republicans are trying. They're normalizing political violence, so the next time you're more numb to it.
What happens if Trump is charged and his supports do take up arms? What if Mississippi and Texas succeed? What if Desantis mobilizes the Floridian guard to march on the Hoover Building?

How about treating all calls to shut down the FBI as calls to violence and censoring the members of congress? How about revoking their committee positions or kicking them out entirely? Dems are just operating off abused spouse logic - do whatever you need to do to make it through the day and hope the Republicans don't go for the gun. And Republicans are openly saying they're going for the gun, and they're loading it. Anything would be better than just sitting there, hoping they calm down before pulling the trigger.
 

Silvanus

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I mean letting Republicans openly say shut down the FBI and calling for the arrest/impeachment of the AG, and saying they will raid all of Biden's homes come 2024 is probably not the way to go.
I mean a dude tried to storm an FBI building and then died in a shootout with cops, and he was at the Jan 6th terrorist attacks. Its pretty clear what Republicans are trying. They're normalizing political violence, so the next time you're more numb to it.
What happens if Trump is charged and his supports do take up arms? What if Mississippi and Texas succeed? What if Desantis mobilizes the Floridian guard to march on the Hoover Building?

How about treating all calls to shut down the FBI as calls to violence and censoring the members of congress? How about revoking their committee positions or kicking them out entirely? Dems are just operating off abused spouse logic - do whatever you need to do to make it through the day and hope the Republicans don't go for the gun. And Republicans are openly saying they're going for the gun, and they're loading it. Anything would be better than just sitting there, hoping they calm down before pulling the trigger.
It would be briefly cathartic for them to try those things, but they would be enormous own-goals.
 

meiam

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I'm sadly in the "I doubt anything will happen from this", its not even the worse things Trump did and pretty sure the GOP will lock arm hard on this because, as the primary are showing, his cultist are really active and ready to vote in number so I doubt even the SC will stop him at this point.

What's the end game for this? There's like 15% of the population that's completely brain washed and are clearly at the point where literally nothing will make them change their mind. A disturbing number of them are willing to use armed force to push their narrative and they have a scary amount of gun in their possession. The only saving grace in all this is that they're all too stupid to organize anything more complex than... trying to raid the FBI with a nail gun. But eventually they'll go full terrorist and start organizing into serious problems. Let's say, against all odd, the democrat manage to not be their usual useless self and actually attempt to arrest him, will the cultist just accept that? And if not, I'd be fucking scared to work at an election booth next election, I can't see it going well, especially if the GOP doesn't win.
 

SilentPony

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It would be briefly cathartic for them to try those things, but they would be enormous own-goals.
I guess just concede the country to them, then? All us liberals should just go off into the woods to die of exposure, because holding the rightwing white nationalists to any legal standard would just hurt their feelings too much? This is the problem the Dems have. I get what the Republican plan is - let Trump run for re-election and no matter what happens on election night, declare victory and then have his followers start rounding up Democrats and capping them in the head. What kills me is apparently that's the Democrats plan too.
 

Silvanus

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I guess just concede the country to them, then? All us liberals should just go off into the woods to die of exposure, because holding the rightwing white nationalists to any legal standard would just hurt their feelings too much? This is the problem the Dems have. I get what the Republican plan is - let Trump run for re-election and no matter what happens on election night, declare victory and then have his followers start rounding up Democrats and capping them in the head. What kills me is apparently that's the Democrats plan too.
Not concede. Defeat them electorally, and when there're sufficient numbers in Congress to do so, reform those areas of government that are structurally unrepresentative or inherently weighted in favour of the Republicans-- the Senate and Supreme Court.

My issue with your suggested approach is that it would actively hamstring any Democratic effort to stop the damage. It would help the Republicans.
 

SilentPony

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Not concede. Defeat them electorally, and when there're sufficient numbers in Congress to do so, reform those areas of government that are structurally unrepresentative or inherently weighted in favour of the Republicans-- the Senate and Supreme Court.

My issue with your suggested approach is that it would actively hamstring any Democratic effort to stop the damage. It would help the Republicans.
Except the electoral system is on the honor system, and Republicans are fresh out of honor. And what happens if you do beat them in an election, what you think they'll suddenly see the light on numbers and facts? You think the people who plotted Jan 6th are going to let another Democrat take the oath of office without trying it again? You really think the average Republican voter is going to wise up between now and the midterm to give Biden an overwhelming majority? Or are they going to hunker down in their little spider hole getting more and more wound up on conspiracies about Jewish ghosts stealing votes and faked FBI raids, until they, I dunno, try to storm an FBI outpost.
Letting Republicans actively call for a civil war not only actively hamstrings the Democrats, it hamstrings the democracy and law and order. That's the kind of abused thinking that'll see Trump get off with a fine of $10, out of fear of more abuse and violence from the right.
 

Silvanus

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Except the electoral system is on the honor system, and Republicans are fresh out of honor. And what happens if you do beat them in an election, what you think they'll suddenly see the light on numbers and facts? You think the people who plotted Jan 6th are going to let another Democrat take the oath of office without trying it again? You really think the average Republican voter is going to wise up between now and the midterm to give Biden an overwhelming majority? Or are they going to hunker down in their little spider hole getting more and more wound up on conspiracies about Jewish ghosts stealing votes and faked FBI raids, until they, I dunno, try to storm an FBI outpost.
I don't doubt they'll try again. It failed, remember. The Jan 6th insurrection failed. It caused a lot of damage, but the solution is to minimise that damage, not to give them more avenues to exploit it.

Letting Republicans actively call for a civil war not only actively hamstrings the Democrats, it hamstrings the democracy and law and order. That's the kind of abused thinking that'll see Trump get off with a fine of $10, out of fear of more abuse and violence from the right.
Expanding the legal definitions of sedition etc is not going to prevent calls for violence. Its going to increase them.
 

SilentPony

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It barely failed. And as we're now learning, everyone save the mook ground troops are going to be free to try again, and this time with more practice.
And here's the thing with sedition. Its already illegal. Just about everything Trump has done for the past 6 years has been illegal, its just not been enforced. And that's how low the bar is now. Actually enforcing the law is now seen as an act of war and a step backwards for the Democrats. Making a call to civil war illegal isn't a step towards violence, its already illegal. Pretending otherwise is how Trump got away with Jan 6.
And that's the problem with the abused Democrats, they keep agreeing to play by two separate sets of rules. Dems have to follow the law not just to the letter, but to the most extreme GOP interpretation of the letter. Meanwhile the Republicans not only don't have to follow the law, they get to openly, actively conspire to get Democrats killed and overturn the Government and any pushback is seen as "adding fuel to the flames". Flames the Republicans started, and are of someone else's home.
 

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Not concede. Defeat them electorally.
That's going to be difficult when the new Republican modus operandi is to not admit defeat.

If enough Republicans just decide to say "nuh uh" when the election results are announced in states that are already Republican controlled then the whole "win the election" plan ends up going out the window.

The republicans don't want to win elections, they want to fix them.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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Not concede. Defeat them electorally
They've learned from their last loss, and they're not going to let it happen again. They're installing election officials who deny Biden won the election, and getting governors elected who are promising to disregard vote tallies if they don't add up to their side's victory and instead send electors who will say their guy won.

They're rigging the game and you're saying that if we just play hard enough, we can win anyway.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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It barely failed. And as we're now learning, everyone save the mook ground troops are going to be free to try again, and this time with more practice.
And here's the thing with sedition. Its already illegal. Just about everything Trump has done for the past 6 years has been illegal, its just not been enforced. And that's how low the bar is now. Actually enforcing the law is now seen as an act of war and a step backwards for the Democrats. Making a call to civil war illegal isn't a step towards violence, its already illegal. Pretending otherwise is how Trump got away with Jan 6.
And that's the problem with the abused Democrats, they keep agreeing to play by two separate sets of rules. Dems have to follow the law not just to the letter, but to the most extreme GOP interpretation of the letter. Meanwhile the Republicans not only don't have to follow the law, they get to openly, actively conspire to get Democrats killed and overturn the Government and any pushback is seen as "adding fuel to the flames". Flames the Republicans started, and are of someone else's home.
And let's be clear, it failed because they stumbled at the end and milled around the government buildings instead of using force. Right now the right's only stumbling block to violent takeover is that they still don't understand how political (and extrapolitical) action works. As soon as they realize they're supposed to do something when they show up somewhere, they're just going to start overthrowing things.
 

Agema

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And let's be clear, it failed because they stumbled at the end and milled around the government buildings instead of using force. Right now the right's only stumbling block to violent takeover is that they still don't understand how political (and extrapolitical) action works. As soon as they realize they're supposed to do something when they show up somewhere, they're just going to start overthrowing things.
I would possibly accept that most of the Capitol rioters probably did not have the intent or will to completely wreck the place and start killing senior politicians. As with many demos, one might assume a relatively small hardcore of serious troublemakers, some angry mob types who get sucked along by them, and the rest bemused by events unfolding more radically than they expected.

As you note, I do not think the USA should rely on that being the case again.

Contextually, I think the large number of Republican politicians then carrying out their performative objection to the result was an ill-considered move, because it provided moral justification for the riot.
 

Thaluikhain

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Eh, the Democrats can't ignore the crimes that the GOP have committed, because they'll just keep committing them and take over the country.

However, the Democrats can't attempt to enforce the laws that the GOP keep breaking, because the GOP would rise and take over the country.

Aaaand the Democrats are themselves evil and useless, just not as evil and useless as the GOP.

Be a miracle if US society is still functioning properly (whatever that word means in context) in another 5-10 years.
 

Silvanus

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They've learned from their last loss, and they're not going to let it happen again. They're installing election officials who deny Biden won the election, and getting governors elected who are promising to disregard vote tallies if they don't add up to their side's victory and instead send electors who will say their guy won.

They're rigging the game and you're saying that if we just play hard enough, we can win anyway.
Not exactly. I'm not saying Democrats should run elections from the same milquetoast playbook they've been using. They've certainly been too meek in calling anti-democratic moves what they are, and in abandoning popular left-of-centre policies to pander to a non-existent centre ground and an abominable right-wing.

But it's incumbent on any realistic opposition to follow a course of action that has a chance of success, and will not assist the enemy. Treating idle nonsense on social media as sedition, and charging Trump on the basis of calling for it, has no chance of success. And will empower the very people the Democrats need to be countering.

If Trump is legally accountable, and I pray to Bast he is, it will be on something more demonstrable and watertight, like mishandling nuclear files. Though I have little faith even that will work, given that the SCOTUS is rigged.
 

SilentPony

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So now we have a armed man attempting to storm the US capitol and opening fire before shooting himself:

And an armed march on the Phoenix FBI building:
https://www.businessinsider.com/mar-a-lago-raid-trump-fans-protest-phoenix-fbi-office-2022-8

But you know what the real danger is? Asking Republicans to stop telling people to do this. We should let the FBI agents and capitol police know we plan to vote in November, that should make the bullets hurt less.