Mar-A-Lago Raid

The Rogue Wolf

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idle nonsense on social media
So now we have a armed man attempting to storm the US capitol and opening fire before shooting himself:

And an armed march on the Phoenix FBI building:
https://www.businessinsider.com/mar-a-lago-raid-trump-fans-protest-phoenix-fbi-office-2022-8
That "idle nonsense on social media" is a call to arms, and the crazies are responding. You're sitting here saying that if we just ignore that, the crazies will calm down- but the only way they'll "calm down" is if we hand them the country and peacefully line up against the wall for them to shoot.
 

Silvanus

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That "idle nonsense on social media" is a call to arms, and the crazies are responding. You're sitting here saying that if we just ignore that, the crazies will calm down- but the only way they'll "calm down" is if we hand them the country and peacefully line up against the wall for them to shoot.
I'm obviously not referring to actual calls to action.

I also don't deny that a whole mess of the rest of this shit-- conspiratorial nonsense, election denial, etc-- has resulted in radicalised assholes like the guy above.

But what, exactly, is the solution being put forward, here? Criminalise lying on social media about the election, and task the local police with rounding up literally millions of teenagers? I'm not denying the problem; I'm saying the solution put forward here is literally impossible. It's unserious.
 

SilentPony

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I'm obviously not referring to actual calls to action.

I also don't deny that a whole mess of the rest of this shit-- conspiratorial nonsense, election denial, etc-- has resulted in radicalised assholes like the guy above.

But what, exactly, is the solution being put forward, here? Criminalise lying on social media about the election, and task the local police with rounding up literally millions of teenagers? I'm not denying the problem; I'm saying the solution put forward here is literally impossible. It's unserious.
So is letting them get away with it. We have people declaring open war against the Government and Democrats, and the response is oh well? Sucks to be them?
How about expel members of Congress that support the Big Lie? Or the calls to arms? How about holding any Republican to any legal standard at all?
'cause at this point it really does seem like your position is let them kill Democrats and take over the Government, because we'd hate to do anything to rile them up and cause them to act out. I believe we call this the Chamberlain Approach.
 

Silvanus

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So is letting them get away with it. We have people declaring open war against the Government and Democrats, and the response is oh well? Sucks to be them?
No, the response to people actually doing that is to hold them legally accountable via the avenues that already exist.

How about expel members of Congress that support the Big Lie? Or the calls to arms?
Actual calls to arms are covered already.

But with "supporting the Big Lie", what's the plan, exactly? By what mechanism are they to be expelled? And people were initially talking about ordinary people, not just Congressmen; so what's the actual plan with them? Because, as I said, you'd need to task local police forces nationwide with the largest manhunt in history for several million people, dragging them in front of a hundred thousand courts across every state, with no possible hope of prosecution and for no discernible benefit.

And the Democrats pursuing this would, by doing so, completely obliterate any remaining chances they had to win the midterms, and guarantee Republican government for decades.
 

SilentPony

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No, the response to people actually doing that is to hold them legally accountable via the avenues that already exist.



Actual calls to arms are covered already.

But with "supporting the Big Lie", what's the plan, exactly? By what mechanism are they to be expelled? And people were initially talking about ordinary people, not just Congressmen; so what's the actual plan with them? Because, as I said, you'd need to task local police forces nationwide with the largest manhunt in history for several million people, dragging them in front of a hundred thousand courts across every state, with no possible hope of prosecution and for no discernible benefit.

And the Democrats pursuing this would, by doing so, completely obliterate any remaining chances they had to win the midterms, and guarantee Republican government for decades.
So would not doing it because the Republican plan is to not have elections anymore and just take over and no one is stopping them because it would be too politically damaging to NOT let them destroy the nation.
So I guess that's it then. Republicans win. The democracy is over, time of death 12:45 pm.
 

meiam

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So now we have a armed man attempting to storm the US capitol and opening fire before shooting himself:

And an armed march on the Phoenix FBI building:
https://www.businessinsider.com/mar-a-lago-raid-trump-fans-protest-phoenix-fbi-office-2022-8

But you know what the real danger is? Asking Republicans to stop telling people to do this. We should let the FBI agents and capitol police know we plan to vote in November, that should make the bullets hurt less.
What a bizarre thing, I guess people with serious mental illness are just naturally attracted toward the Trump cult, maybe because they're standard are extremely low and the people are looking for an inclusive group that will tell them they're "really smart" for seeing trough liberal lies or something like that. Or maybe he was just heavily intoxicated or something.

Also interesting to note not too long ago the assumption would be that this would some sort of middle eastern terrorist but now its pretty much been accepted that they're Trump terrorist that do that. I wonder if the other people in that group sometime think about this. Do they start thinking that the other terrorist had it right?

I wonder if there's a way society could push them to just go the "drinking cool aid" route rather than "shoot at people" route. When Trump die, maybe start a rumor that if you die at the same time your soul will join his in heaven and maybe that'll fix the issue. Cause I don't see this getting fixed any other way.
 

Agema

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What a bizarre thing, I guess people with serious mental illness are just naturally attracted toward the Trump cult
I suspect people with mental illness are fairly evenly distributed around political parties.

However, the Republican Party has a wing that fetishes guns, violence, anti-government conspiracy theory, etc. If that's what their crazies latch onto, that's what they'll express when triggered.
 
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SilentPony

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What a bizarre thing, I guess people with serious mental illness are just naturally attracted toward the Trump cult, maybe because they're standard are extremely low and the people are looking for an inclusive group that will tell them they're "really smart" for seeing trough liberal lies or something like that. Or maybe he was just heavily intoxicated or something.

Also interesting to note not too long ago the assumption would be that this would some sort of middle eastern terrorist but now its pretty much been accepted that they're Trump terrorist that do that. I wonder if the other people in that group sometime think about this. Do they start thinking that the other terrorist had it right?

I wonder if there's a way society could push them to just go the "drinking cool aid" route rather than "shoot at people" route. When Trump die, maybe start a rumor that if you die at the same time your soul will join his in heaven and maybe that'll fix the issue. Cause I don't see this getting fixed any other way.
Oh Trump will never die. His mortal shell may die, but I guarantee you his "spirit" will be a massive political figure for decades to come. Republicans will be on stage at CPAC saying they feel the spirit of Donald Trump in the room, and that they had a vision/dream of Trump calling them to lead, The Republican convention will begin and end with a prayer to Trump. People will claim he's being reborn/returned to life. For years evangelicals have been calling him the Messiah.
And that's assuming people won't just say Trump's ghost is a candidate/law maker, and cite his whispers as reason to vote no on if black people should still exist.
 

SilentPony

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I suspect people with mental illness are fairly evenly distributed around political parties.

However, the Republican Party has a wing that fetishes guns, violence, anti-government conspiracy theory, etc. If that's what their crazies latch onto, that's what they'll express when triggered.
The good thing about left-wing crazies is they don't believe in vaccines, and think bleach is a miracle tonic. And that's a very nicely self-solving system.
The right wing ones think the cloud people choose Trump to be the next God-King and will take up arms and kill people until we all agree. And that's a more difficult system to solve.
 

Thaluikhain

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I believe we call this the Chamberlain Approach.
Now that I think of it, not a bad comparison. We (rightly or wrongly) tend to condemn Chamberlain for not beginning the bloodiest war in human history earlier, but I can't fault him for wanting to avoid it...especially since the UK got soundly thrashed as soon as the war started (for them, overlooking the phony war months).

The consequences for actually taking on the far-right in the US would be catastrophic, can't fault the Dems for being frightened to do it. It's just that the consequences for not actually taking them on will be catastrophic as well, of course.

The good thing about left-wing crazies is they don't believe in vaccines, and think bleach is a miracle tonic.
Hey? Is that not more a rightwing thing, pushed by Trump himself?
 

SilentPony

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Hey? Is that not more a rightwing thing, pushed by Trump himself?
Trump pushed it as a Covid cure, yes 100%. But I have more than a few looney hippie family members who regularly drink distilled bleach as a miracle cure, and have done it for years. Longer than Trump has been around.
In a lot of alternative medicine leftists group, its also seen as a cure of autism and a whole shit load of other illnesses and disorders.

And with Chamberlain, it was a delaying tactic more than anything. The British were preparing for war, and just decided to sacrifice a few more European countries in order to buy time, but war was 100% inevitable and both sides knew it. So I guess we just have to decide with Democratic lawmakers we're willing to sacrifice while others start to arm themselves.
 

Gergar12

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The people who support him, and the former president are traitors. They would likely sell nuclear weapon designs to a foreign country for billions. I am guessing the nuclear weapon designs were to be sold to Saudi Arabia. So Trump perhaps wants the country that attacked the US on 9/11 to have nukes?
 

SilentPony

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The Rogue Wolf

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And now Ran Paul is calling for the repeal of the Espionage Act:

Because nothing says law and order and innocence like repealing the laws you're accused of breaking.
It's just codifying the Republican conceit that the only possible criminal action is to not be a Republican.
 
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Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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And now Trump is asking for the "privileged" documents to be returned.
Presumably the FBI have taken a large number of documents not relevant to their search (because they don't have time to scrutinise during the seizure) as well as the ones that are, and the former need to be returned.

I can't help but wonder if some of the information on these would be damaging to Trump if they came out - although of course if privileged I doubt they can be used in an inevstigation or courtroom.
 

SilentPony

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It's just codifying the Republican conceit that the only possible criminal action is to not be a Republican.
I mean this is it to a T. They're just pushing for the GOP as a party to be exempt from the law. Its only a crime when Democrats do it.

Presumably the FBI have taken a large number of documents not relevant to their search (because they don't have time to scrutinize during the seizure) as well as the ones that are, and the former need to be returned.

I can't help but wonder if some of the information on these would be damaging to Trump if they came out - although of course if privileged I doubt they can be used in an investigation or courtroom.
It really depends. Relevant to their search for top secret docs? Yeah, probably grabbed more than they needed. But if they're just regular presidential docs, that's still needs to be taken. Trump doesn't own shit, the US government does. And he can't just declare its all his. That's not how presidential archives works.
 

meiam

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Presumably the FBI have taken a large number of documents not relevant to their search (because they don't have time to scrutinise during the seizure) as well as the ones that are, and the former need to be returned.

I can't help but wonder if some of the information on these would be damaging to Trump if they came out - although of course if privileged I doubt they can be used in an inevstigation or courtroom.
Presumably if they were pretty bad they'd be admissible. Like, for example, if during a search the cop were to discover a dead body they can still open an investigation into it. I imagine theres a procedure for that, but so long as the original search was lawful its fine.

Looking at it the other way, someone couldn't tip the cop to have them intentionally search his residence using bogus tips, just so they'd find some real incriminating evidence in a way that would make them invalid in court, thus making it so they'd be immune from having those document ever used against them.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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Looking at it the other way, someone couldn't tip the cop to have them intentionally search his residence using bogus tips, just so they'd find some real incriminating evidence in a way that would make them invalid in court, thus making it so they'd be immune from having those document ever used against them.
I was hoping someone could tell me: I have no idea whether the law can use privileged documents, especially those not relevant to the reason for a search.

I suspect not, because I can't help but feel that there's a major moral hazard of law enforcement agencies finding excuses to search people's houses in the hope of turning that sort of thing up.
 

SilentPony

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I was hoping someone could tell me: I have no idea whether the law can use privileged documents, especially those not relevant to the reason for a search.

I suspect not, because I can't help but feel that there's a major moral hazard of law enforcement agencies finding excuses to search people's houses in the hope of turning that sort of thing up.
Wait until you hear about civil forfeiture. The police can just assume your possessions are going to commit a crime and just take them. Happens all the time down here in St. Louis. The police think your $200 cash is suspicious. You're not suspicious, the cash is. So they just take the cash. And as cash isn't a citizen or entitled to due process, its just their cash now. Same with cars, expensive jewelry, booze. It really is just a way for the cops to steal from citizens.
 
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