Mass Effect 3, Indoctrination theory (new and extended)

[Proverbial Jon]

[b/]*MASSIVE BIG FLAMESHEILD*[/b]

I know you guys don't want anymore Mass effect 3 threads, I know the horse no longer exists but instead has been sumoned and destroyed in every spiritual/physical way and that it is no longer a horse but a horse shaped black hole that is sucking everything in around it

but there is one reason, and that is this guy made a 90 minute "documentry" (almost) explaining an analysing indoctrination theory

and since he put in so much effort, and since it brings some new (albeit small) stuff to the table I think it deserves a look...

mabye your sold in indoctrination theory

mabye your not

mabye you don't know what it is but I'm just going to leave this here


its a long one so grab some pop-corn (I dont know about anyone but I find this stuff facinating)

Just when I had all but forgotten about this... you come along and force me to watch a 90 minute documentary on the subject... damn!

But seriously, I was a firm supporter of the Indoctrination Theory from the moment I heard it. By far the most compelling evidence is the Rachni Queen's description of "oily shadows" that just can't be mere coincidence.

I also have some ideas to add to this rather comprehensive video:

The Anderson/TIM confrontation

Let's go with the indoctrination theory for a moment and assume that both Anderson and the Illusive Man are figments of Shepard's immagination and essentially represent both the good and bad sides of Shepard's mind.

When we watch that scene it seems clear that the three people in the room are talking between themselves. But let's just alter that slightly shall we... how about we say that both Anderson and TIM are talking directly to Shepard and NOT to each other. Look at Anderson's lines now, remember he's talking directly to Shepard...

"They're controlling you."

"Listen to yourself. You're indoctrinated."

If both of these men are just part of Shepard's mind, why would Anderson tell one half that he is indoctrinated? It sounds more like a warning aimed directly AT Shepard.


The Red, Blue, Green ending colours.

Blue = Paragon and The Alliance
Red = Renegade and Cerberus/Reapers
Green = Middle Ground and the Protheans

Remember how the Prothean VIs were always green? Notice how the green option is synthesis, the combination of organic and synthetics? What did the Protheans do during their cycle? That's right, they took all races and subdued them, combining many races into their own giant empire. Esentially synthesis. Significant? Who knows?

 

[spartandude]

If you need a video longer than the ending itself to explain the ending, you have failed.

this is generally a sounds rule

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

Fan theories are almost always great. The Indoctrination Theory is just a great example of what fans will go through and how deep they'll go to get the answers they want.

well thats nicer than "GET OVER IT AND STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE!!!" answers

It wasn't meant to be a snide remark. I love the Indoctrination Theory. It's an in depth and seemingly well thought out explanation of what's going on through the series, and could even explain why the Council is so reluctant to help Shepard through the series if we're only seeing what HE/SHE sees and not what's actually happening. If it turns out to be true, then it just proves that Bioware really are the masters of storytelling and really know how to turn around a tough situation like having all their work viciously scrutinized by their fans and after setbacks like all the leaks they had during production.

It just goes to show that the BEST and WORST thing a game/show/book/movie series can have are fans.

 

[Jynthor]

I still don't believe the Indoctrination Theory.
And I wish people would stop bring up Shepard's eyes. Shepard has had those implants since the start of ME2, they show up when you play Renegade. And when your face gets burned off I'm pretty sure they will show even as a Paragon.

 

[worldruler8]

*sigh* I'll watch it when I get the time, but it doesn't make sense for a company that has been so unsubtle with their work to suddenly be subtle. The main issue I have with the IT theory is that if everything after Harbinger's beam was a "dream", than we go from an ending that did resolution terribly, to one that doesn't resolve anything. The issue with this is that this ending (well, interpretation of the ending) implies that the story wasn't so much a story of the world through Shepard (which I think is the case) and more a story of Shepard, and all the shit happening is just sort of there. Although I do admire the amount of work, and at first I did start to think the people proposing the theory are on to something, but than I realized that throughout the series, everything in the story was taken at face-value first, metaphorical-value second. In this one, face-value makes absolutely NO sense, and why would you have an extensive dream sequence in a game where we are Shepard? It doesn't make sense to do that, since all of our Shepards are different, and chances are we will reach a point where we think a different way than Shepard is thinking. So if TIM is actually the "Reapers" telling you to not destroy them, why can you have him kill himself? Why would we be given the option to destroy the Reapers in this indoc dream? Although the questions I have are less plot-intensive than with the ending taken at face-value, I find it more likely the ending is just a poor ending than one this extensive one. If Bioware wanted to make that ending, everyone would know, and this amount of analysis wouldn't discover the indoc theory, it would already be apparent.

 

[JamesStone]

and since he put in so much effort, and since it brings some new (albeit small) stuff to the table I think it deserves a look...

No, no it doesn't. It's still tripe, even if it's anal, minutia-laden tripe.

Come on, folks. Pro or against the indoctrination theory, just admit: Bioware doesn't make good stories. Your expectations were built up in your head and NOTHING can compare.

why?

with indoctriantion theory everything makes sense

without it...NOTHING makes sense

does that make it true? no of coarse not..does it make it interesting? damn right it does, the ending might be bad but it gave way to all this speculation, somthing "good" came out of it at least

liek I said, Im only "skeptical" becas=use I think its just that unlikley some so brilliant could be true, but that doesnt mean I dont enjoy looking into it

and it has NOTHING to do with expectations, no matter how high low or normal your expectations were the ending jsut fucks with you in so many ways...the fact that it goes against lore as well...

...untill Bioware comes out with its DLC I just cant take the ending at facr vaule, its just too non-sensical

so in other words, why try and rain on people parade? (other than the fact yoru sick of ME3 threads)

With indoc theory, what is the actual ending? Can you not see how horribly horribly inconclusive it is to not only say "It was all a dream" but to not even bother with that and just imply it, to end the story before the hero wakes up?

Everything only makes sense if you work on the premise that nothing will make sense because of indoctrination, it is entirely recursive and artificial, where it devolves into grabbing what fits and just using the blanket term of "indoctrination" to force everything to fit together.

So yeah, it's better then the actual ending. But it really isn't a good thing. It was all a dream should be avoided as much as possible.

The ending is: Red: Shepard fights indocrination, goes to the panel and uses the Catalyst (The Citadel's massive arrays) to hard reset every synthetic in the galaxy, or, if you have enough EMS, the Reapers only, causing an overload and destroying them. Shepard Lives in the best case scenario.
Blue: Shepard gets indocrinated. Best case scenario: Shepard shoots himself in the head to stun Harbinger, allowing the fleets to destroy him. Before dying, Shepard transfers the Crucible activation to the Normandy.
Green: Shepard becomes the core of the Reaper, being his conscience. He talks to Harbinger in his mind. Best case scenario: Shepard fights back, destroying one reaper or two before activating the Crucible.

All fan fiction endings. All great endings IMO, and they are based in the indocrination theory.

 

[Woodsey]

snip

Yes, and the screen distortion, vague black-tentacle-shadow-things appearing at the side of the screen, along with the Reaper noises in the distance, and Shepard clutching at his head, all when no Reapers are around, is laziness/stupidity/accidental/MEANINGLESSOHGODITSALLMEANINGLESS too.

Not so hot on the indoctrination ending.

To quote Shamus Young:

I think that would be better than the ending we got, but I don?t think it it was ever intended by the writers. This theory involves an incredible level of subtle symbolism, which goes against just how ham-fisted the rest of the story is. To wit: If these writers thought Shepard was indoctrinated in the last stage of the game, we would know it.

Still, love all the investigating and whatnot going into all this. Seeing so many people really get into a game's story and lore is great to see. Wish it happened more often, but I'm glad it's happening nonetheless.

The way I see it, there's more than enough there to hold the theory up, and even if it wasn't what they intended, there comes a point when it doesn't actually matter. It's interesting that people are perfectly happy to have alternate interpretations with other works (books, films, games, whatever), but with this the only option is that it was stupid.

Likewise, whilst Mass Effect has never had the most deft writing, it's never come within a mile of the retardation that the ending requires unless you assume that there's more than just what's at face value at work.

And the theory really doesn't require THAT much symbolism; you can certainly have it incorporate a lot of symbolism, but you can still chalk that up to a bit of good luck. But it doesn't really matter when there's the aforementioned sequence with black tentacles creeping at the side of the screen, screen distortion, and Reaper noises in the distance. I mean, everything else is just supplementary to the fact that we are shown on screen that Shepard is quite clearly having his head fucked with. (Funnily enough, this is also the point which is the least brought up.)

snip

I think the point is that they're quite clearly blue when Shepard's implants are red. I chose Destruction anyway though, so I've not seen it.

 

[x EvilErmine x]

I watched it and I still fully support indoctrination theory.

I'm not looking forward to the extended dlc to be perfectly honest,but it will be funny to see how they will dig their hole deeper with the explanations regarding the presumably unchanged ending.

I agree with this. And I also fully support the indoctrination theory. Things would make a lot more sense if they went with it. But they don't seem to be doing it, so this might be just one of those fan dreams that will never come true.

I don't care, though, the indoctrination is canon for my Shepard. After he resisted, he woke up and kicked some Reaper ass and everyone was cheering his name. Then he went to Rannoch and lived happily ever after with Tali. And had a beer with Garrus and Vega.

If you need a video longer than the ending itself to explain the ending, you have failed.

I don't get it. Why is it a failure, again? Because it's longer than the ending itself? What?

Basically it means that the ending should be self contained and wrap up any lingering plot points that remain. You should not need a video that is longer than the actual ending of the story to explain what happens in the ending of the story. The exception to this rule is if you are setting up a sequel...which considering that ME3 was supposed to be the conclusion of the story arch, is not the case here hence the extreme levels of fail.

 

[TotalerKrieger]

Everything in the video makes logical sense, but it can all be written off by incompetence on Bioware's part. The texture file named "dream foliage" is however the first piece of objective evidence which does imply that the ending may not be the in-game reality. I think Bioware should just go ahead and delve into the IT head first..it would be awesome and hilarious all at once.

 

[Vault101]

Basically it means that the ending should be self contained and wrap up any lingering plot points that remain. You should not need a video that is longer than the actual ending of the story to explain what happens in the ending of the story. The exception to this rule is if you are setting up a sequel...which considering that ME3 was supposed to be the conclusion of the story arch, is not the case here hence the extreme levels of fail.

people have spent countless hours analysing and disucssing all kinds of works..taking longer than the actual work itself I hardly see the problem

besides I think "IT" works on the Idea the ending is still unfinished

 

[worldruler8]

Basically it means that the ending should be self contained and wrap up any lingering plot points that remain. You should not need a video that is longer than the actual ending of the story to explain what happens in the ending of the story. The exception to this rule is if you are setting up a sequel...which considering that ME3 was supposed to be the conclusion of the story arch, is not the case here hence the extreme levels of fail.

people have spent countless hours analysing and disucssing all kinds of works..taking longer than the actual work itself I hardly see the problem

besides I think "IT" works on the Idea the ending is still unfinished

I think his point was more about analyzing to make sense of something to find out what really happened, versus analyzing something to find hidden meanings. But really, ME3 isn't like a Dadaist painting or anything, it was very clear on what happened on everything but the ending. So I highly doubt that the IT theory is what they intended. And I'll admit that "Dream_Foliage" thing was good tangible evidence. Just realize the names of the cutscenes were also "Red/Blue/Green_London", so take that with a grain of salt the size of Texas.

 

[DarthSka]

Wow, that guy really did the research. I knew a lot of this stuff already, but there were some new ones I had no idea about. Dream foliage, now that is just a little too obvious to deny.

 

[Vault101]

Wow, that guy really did the research. I knew a lot of this stuff already, but there were some new ones I had no idea about. Dream foliage, now that is just a little too obvious to deny.

Everything in the video makes logical sense, but it can all be written off by incompetence on Bioware's part. The texture file named "dream foliage" is however the first piece of objective evidence which does imply that the ending may not be the in-game reality. I think Bioware should just go ahead and delve into the IT head first..it would be awesome and hilarious all at once.

even without indoctrination theory perhaps the intention was to make "make it a dream...or is it?" perhaps they didnt intend it to be taken at face vaule...but more "if we throw all this nonsensical shit together its deep! and its art!"

so what Im saying is it could have been possible to both have parts of the ending as a dream (or is it?) and stil be stupid and nonsensial

 

[fireaura08]

I don't know, even the ending they were "supposed" to go with, the dark matter ending, doesn't make any sense.

Let's just chalk it up to "videogame endings suck".

can you explain the original endings for me? what were they supposed to be?

Originally, the Reapers were supposed to be harvesting all organic life in the galaxy in an effort to create more Reapers to keep dark matter from destroying everything (foreshadowed heavily with Haestrom's sun in ME2). The final decision would force Shepard to either sacrifice all of humanity to create another Reaper to fight the dark matter, or to screw the Reapers and fight the dark matter on their own.

Honestly, this is such a good ending, much better then any of that Crucible bullshit. I think it was ditched because it got leaked all over the internet.

(not sure if this has been answered yet, but if not enjoy)

 

[Tono Makt]

Goddammit. I don't have 85 min to spend watching this. Razzum frazzum, can't we just drop this already? No matter how you slice it, Hudson Hawked the ending. Indoctrination, ReaperGodCitadelCrucibleChild, SpaceMagic, whatever. There was a potential for greatness that was hinted at, played at, pointed to and dressed in a frilly pink tutu before it was substituted for Rosie O'Donnell in a g-string bikini and a merkin. (if you need to google it, DON'T.)

Bioware isn't going to use the Indoctrination theory. They can't; they did what most public figures do these days when confronted with their own incompetence - they doubled down. To allow for this theory to be used, they would have to admit that they made a mistake with the current ending, which they can't do. They've called it "art". Dozens of games pundits (Okay, maybe dozens is a bit hyperbolic. Frydude doesn't count as more than three.) jumped on the "art" bandwagon. Thousands of fans jumped on the "art" bandwagon - hundreds of them were actually sincere about it too. It's called "art" because you can't make a mistake with art; there is no right and wrong to art. There is simply interpretation.

So to go back and so radically change the ending is to admit that the ending is not "art" after all. That isn't an option, even if they wanted to, since all those pundits (maybe two dozen. including Rob Tostitogarcon.) would have to find some way to justify their reaction and defense of the ending now that it's not "art" anymore. And since those same pundits would need to find a way to reclaim lost credibility, they would end up attacking Bioware for caving to the demands of the unwashed, uneducated masses who can't appreciate art. Which they already are doing to some degree, overthinking their reactions to the way Bioware is giving an extended clarification to the ending of their game.

Now can we please get off the topic of the indoctrination theory? It's a great idea that has no possible way of being used by Bioware, and to make an 85 min video so far after the fact is just overkill... *mutters under his breath, then tries to figure out how he's going to put aside 85 minutes to watch this video anyway*

 

[squid5580]

Umm I could be way off here (and I am not going to watch a 90 minute video on it) but doesn't the very last scene (the one after the credits) invalidate the whole theory?

 

[Vault101]

Umm I could be way off here (and I am not going to watch a 90 minute video on it) but doesn't the very last scene (the one after the credits) invalidate the whole theory?

the "tell us abotut he shepard grandpa" thing?

as I said, I think IT is saying that the ending is still unfinished..shepard is yet to "eake up" and fishing off the reapers for real

 

[Vault101]

anipi>*

No, with Indoctrination theory they dont have to radically change anything...just ass more on (after shepard "wake up")

the fact is without IT the ending taken at face value seems unsalvagable..how the hell could a few cutscenes fix that? a few cutscenes isnt much with at least with IT its doable

I dont know what theyll do but they said they will do somthing..what that somthing is I have no idea

 

[squid5580]

Umm I could be way off here (and I am not going to watch a 90 minute video on it) but doesn't the very last scene (the one after the credits) invalidate the whole theory?

the "tell us abotut he shepard grandpa" thing?

as I said, I think IT is saying that the ending is still unfinished..shepard is yet to "eake up" and fishing off the reapers for real

So that would mean that this story goes from a dream to a fast forward of a distant future then back to where the events of the dream was just that and didn't really happen. Only for something else to happen? And this is supposed to make it better?

I am going to stick with the Grampa theory. He was telling a story to his grandson the entire series. Some of the details may have been exaggerated (or just wrong) but dammit it is his story and he had to walk 300 miles in blizzards uphill both ways so I can forgive his trangressions.

 

[Vault101]

Umm I could be way off here (and I am not going to watch a 90 minute video on it) but doesn't the very last scene (the one after the credits) invalidate the whole theory?

the "tell us abotut he shepard grandpa" thing?

as I said, I think IT is saying that the ending is still unfinished..shepard is yet to "eake up" and fishing off the reapers for real

So that would mean that this story goes from a dream to a fast forward of a distant future then back to where the events of the dream was just that and didn't really happen. Only for something else to happen? And this is supposed to make it better?

I am going to stick with the Grampa theory. He was telling a story to his grandson the entire series. Some of the details may have been exaggerated (or just wrong) but dammit it is his story and he had to walk 300 miles in blizzards uphill both ways so I can forgive his trangressions.

from what we can tell granpa is telling this story a long time in the future, and its so vauge that it does really affect anything

like I said from the moment shepard gets hit by the beam (to the moment he/she wakes up at the end of destructin) we could assume he/she is really lying where he/she fell in this reaper-fever dream..whats going on during that time or after we don't know...

WHATEVER happens...face vaule or not many many years in the future grandpa is telling little billy about how shepard defeated the reapers

so we know WAHTEVER happned shepard defeated the reapers, but thats beside the point

the point is no one gives a shit abotu grandpa buzz aldrin and little billy because WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT HEPPNED TO SHEPARD AND ALL HIS/HER FREINDS....and as I said, they are too far in the future to be worth worrying about