"Medicine" in America

[Albino Boo]

Everyone pays for medical care its just a question of when. Ambulances cost money to buy and run and the people that operate them need to make a living, all of which costs money. The rest is how and when you pay.

The other question is "how much?"

There is no "fix" for the healthcare system in the United States. It's too expensive because of the sue-happy nature of the country which can result in malpractice lawsuits of incredible proportions. This requires doctors and hospitals to take out professional liability insurance which, due to the aforementioned sue-happy climate is VERY expensive.

If that were true, the caps on liability from a decade ago would have impacted cost.

They didn't.

The problem is the for-profit nature. Most of the money doesn't go into liability, but profits. Let's not utterly delude ourselves.

Last year the the non profit NHS made record provision for medical negligence of £22.7 billion out of annual budget of £108 billion.

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

Hell, you don't even need to do that. Take that 5% of the military budget, use to expand the military medical system, and have them also treat civilians.

Then you don't even have to officially make military cutbacks, you're just moving their money around.

The US currently spends 21% of its the federal budget on taxpayer funded health care and 22% on defense. The NHS costs 4x times the UK defence budget and the UK has the fifth largest defence budget in the world. To have a free at the point of use health service you would need to shut down the entire defense budget and some other departments as well.

 

[michael87cn]

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

Pro tip: while you sound so very smart and like you have such a great idea; civilians have no control over that stuff here.

Don't give me bollocks about voting and such nonsense.

You should address your little idea to our government instead; wait, we already have by the thousands.

Really, bravo though on your 'good idea'.

 

[ClockworkPenguin]

Does that make me a Nazi hipster?

"I was being denounced as a genocidal bastard BEFORE it was cool."

I think you need to try to murder at least one ethnicity, and then if anyone complains, get defensive and so you were only doing it ironically, so you are above criticism.

I persecuted a people once, but they're quite obscure, you've probably never heard of them.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

Pro tip: while you sound so very smart and like you have such a great idea; civilians have no control over that stuff here.

Don't give me bollocks about voting and such nonsense.

You should address your little idea to our government instead; wait, we already have by the thousands.

Really, bravo though on your 'good idea'.

Thanks for the subtle sarcasm, I'll be sure to note it in here in my diary and take your condescending criticism to heart.

Oh look! A rainbow! Vast amounts of gold, here I come!

 

[LetalisK]

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

Daystar, we spend more on defense than the next 26 countries on the list combined, 24 of which are allies. We could cut the defense budget in half and be fine.

Also, according to some people I went to school with, apparently believing that we should focus on healthcare and education rather than socking all spare money into the military makes me a filthy liberal. If so...fucking guilty as charged.

And guess who would be hurt first if we cut our military spending: our allies. The first thing to go if we were to significantly scale back our military would be our foreign bases which not only bring in a ton of money for the local economies, but also provide de facto defense, meaning more of the ally's resources are freed up for other things. I'm thinking we're in a time where the last one doesn't matter as much in some places like Germany due to the peaceful status quo and the ally country wouldn't feel the need to divert funds to fill the hole left by American forces. Besides the votes people in congress get by pretending to be pro-military and filling up its budget every year, they really don't want to deal with the political fallout that would ensue if we started pulling up stakes in other countries, no matter how much I wish they'd bite the bullet and do it.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Reason A universal healthcare won't work in the US: Government bureaucracy and HIPAA. It won't be medical professionals deciding whether or not you need Test A thats really important and can possibly be the difference between a treatment that will work, and one that will kill you, it will be bureaucrats who only see numbers and pricing who decide your fate. This is how medicaid/medicare already works and it is a crap system. My wife has disability and she has had to get 5 tests done in order to get the one test her PRIMARY care doctor and GI doctor both have said she really needs. The other tests were redundant and unnecessary to her condition, but it was required by the insurance she has through Medicare/Medicaid.
This will not get better with a "new" law. Oh and HIPAA will go out the window when government runs healthcare. That means they will have access to all your medical records without needing your permission. If you had/have a problem with PRISM, this is also invasion of privacy and a strong smack in the face of the 4th amendment.
The other reason that government can't run healthcare in the US: Name a government program that works efficiently, that doesn't screw people over and doesn't hemorrhage money. BTW: The military is extremely inefficient when it comes to money spending, and screws people over all the time. SEE VA benefits.

If it's not impossible for almost every other western country, why should it be for the US? What's preventing them (in principle) to create structures that would make it work?

You know, many of those health care systems are run by the public sector, and all of them are cheaper, and many yield better results.

 

[davidmc1158_v1legacy]

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

Daystar, we spend more on defense than the next 26 countries on the list combined, 24 of which are allies. We could cut the defense budget in half and be fine.

Also, according to some people I went to school with, apparently believing that we should focus on healthcare and education rather than socking all spare money into the military makes me a filthy liberal. If so...fucking guilty as charged.

And guess who would be hurt first if we cut our military spending: our allies. The first thing to go if we were to significantly scale back our military would be our foreign bases which not only bring in a ton of money for the local economies, but also provide de facto defense, meaning more of the ally's resources are freed up for other things. I'm thinking we're in a time where the last one doesn't matter as much in some places like Germany due to the peaceful status quo and the ally country wouldn't feel the need to divert funds to fill the hole left by American forces. Besides the votes people in congress get by pretending to be pro-military and filling up its budget every year, they really don't want to deal with the political fallout that would ensue if we started pulling up stakes in other countries, no matter how much I wish they'd bite the bullet and do it.

Let us not forget that the U.S. military budget is also a giant jobs program. Federal handouts and corporate welfare to a number of firms with very influential lobbying groups.

Hell, we've even had military commanders complaining about the unnecessary equipment demanded in the budgets Congress passes. We have so many tanks that large numbers of them are apparently just sitting in storage and will never be used. All because a military contract company has "friends" on the budget committee and can use the leverage of how unemployment in that congressman's/woman's district will go up if they cut the spending.

Private business having undue influence in government. It's never been a good thing, but I have no concrete idea how to cut that influence.

 

[Thedutchjelle]

So the problem isn't insurance companies a lack of a health care system. The problem is that those guys in the Ambulance, the doctors that treated you, and the hospital administrators, are all a bunch of greedy assholes. If the government wants to help us it should bring the hammer down on all the doctors and Ambulance drivers. Force them to do their job for a set price or go out of business.

Or the government step in and pay everyones healthcare with tax payers money. Sure you pay more tax but you know that when you go to hospital you dont have to pay a penny to get healthcare

The relevant question is this, why don't you pay for your healthcare out of your own pocket. You don't because you cant afford it. In America at least, the cost of healthcare is so high that nobody can afford to pay it. Nobody can afford to spend $2000 to sleep in a hospital bed for one night.

This is why universal healthcare wont work, at least for America. How is the government supposed to use our money to pay for something we cant afford? If their isn't enough money in our pockets to pay the bill then how can the government, which gets all of its money from our pockets, afford to pay the bill?

Because not everybody needs the hospital every year. So everybody pays for the need of a few, which makes it affordable for those few.

For me in the Netherlands, there is a "Eigen Risico" (Own Risk) - an amount of money I have to pay, roughly 160 euro iirc, before insurance/State kicks in to pay everything else. So I've to pay for small things like dentist check-ups, but if I break my arm (which would cost well over 160) I wouldn't have to worry about going bankrupt.

 

[spartan231490]

So I've learned two things today:

1: I suck at this "being an adult". Leave for a haircut this morning. 5 hours, a trip to the hospital and 6 stitches later, still no haircut.

2: "Medicine" must be code for "profiteering racket". Because in the ambulance on my way to the hospital, the technician is offering me a paid yearly ambulance subscription service so I don't have to pay to use the ambulance if I need it.

I'll give that a moment to sink in. I'm sitting here with some my meat hanging out - covered, but still not where it should be (I look a bit like uncooked chicken on the inside apparently) - and they're trying to sell me something. I know I'm going to have to pay out the ass for the Emergency Room, the Doctor, the Stitches and the Care........and now she is reminding that the very needed trip to the hospital isn't even free.

If we're not even getting people to the hospital without charging them............

Everyone pays for medical care its just a question of when. Ambulances cost money to buy and run and the people that operate them need to make a living, all of which costs money. The rest is how and when you pay.

Sad that so few people get this. I'm now abandoning this thread before someone drags me into another pointless debate.

 

[rasputin0009]

A country with healthcare supports itself. You keep the people healthy enough to work, and they keep contributing to taxes. It is the biggest win-win situation for the government and the people. The only ones who lose are businesses. And since they're the ones with the money to lobby, they hold all the control. Especially when it comes to America's broken democracy.

 

[MCerberus]

Honestly, why should I pay for other peoples hospital visits? No really why should I? I have no desire or want to do that.

I'd like to point out something here: you already do.
Doctors have been ethically compelled to save dying people without compensation since ancient Greece. Now, without actual real healthcare, the less fortunate are going from one deadly crisis to another.

Hospitals have found that if you provide free housing to people they end up saving money.

This is nothing compared to how crippled the FDA is letting drug companies and snake oil salesmen just do whatever, how a weakening EPA is leading to a whole mess of effects, and corn subsidies are the worst thing to happen to public health... like... ever.

 

[omega 616]

Healthcare is just insanely expensive here, way more than any other country. I could guess at some reason why but I'm sure the root causes are a topic of discussion for more educated individuals. I just have to leave it by saying "That's how it is here"

It's why the analogies to other countries with working healthcare systems don't always work. The government cant afford to provide all its citizens with a free MRIs when an MRI costs 10 times as much as in other countries. I think its been shown that America actually spends more on healthcare than many other countries yet has less coverage, all because of prices.

So are you saying that the same equipment and the same medicine is more expensive in America than the rest of the world? Is it like the nice beaches tax Aus has to pay for there games?

Universal health care would work in America, it's the exact same as every other country in the world. You just need people to support it and not hate change.

Change is the only thing holding the world back, Americans are accustomed to being charged to live so when "hey, everybody can live for a minor tax increase (even though in a sane world money would just be taken from war funds)" a lot of you say "fuck that noise!".

I've heard the same argument for gun laws, "Aus had similar gun laws to USA, then they changed to be much more strict and now there are no school shootings ... why don't you have that in America?"
"'cos America is a different country so it wouldn't work".

I think America is scary place! It's like the government wants you to die. "You got accidentally shot 'cos of a gang war? Shit, that is going to cost A LOT!"

 

[salfiert]

the united states is stuffed, plain and simple, its time as a major world player is over and the next 50-100 years will see it decline to the point where it is basically irrelevant on the world stage, and frankly a country that can't look after its people doesn't deserve to be a world player, your health system is stuffed cause the education to provide that healthcare is too damn expensive, your education is too expensive because the education providers can do whatever it wants, because your government is a ponderously huge quivering mess of self serving bureaucracy that is too preoccupied with not collapsing under its own weight to do anything, and half the people have this insane idolization of a form of capitalism so twisted its become 'take everything you can for yourself give nothing back' I've seen people I swear would complain about having to publicly fund a fire department as their house burned down around them. it is absolutely insane, and its so deeply ingrained nothing in the world can fix it, my advice to anyone in america is get out, leave cause its only gonna get worse in our lifetimes

 

[Shdwrnr]

As someone who works in the profession of medicine in the United States, I can assure you that the majority of difficulties with ambulances are a result of how they are used and treated. The majority of calls to our ambulances are either people who just want a ride to the hospital because they are shut ins or elderly and need a ride for routine care or they're people trying to abuse the system under the belief that coming in an ambulance will get them seen faster (again for routine care). As a result, the ambulance system is over-tasked by people who shouldn't be calling for them and the ambulance companies are forbidden by law to refuse to offer their services. On top of that, while there is a fee for using them, if the patient doesn't pay they are still required by law to provide their services. Their only recourse is to increase prices so that the people who actually do pay offset the losses incurred by those that do not.

 

[tardcore]

An ambulance is not a fucking taxi and healthcare is not a money making enterprise. If you lived in a civilized country your healthcare would be paid for in taxes and government funding

Yes they would be paid for and he could look forward to taking the risk of being left to die in an NHS hospital corridor due to hospital overcrowding and hospital staff apathy. Incompetence is incompetence regardless of who is picking up the check.

As to the whole an ambulance is not a taxi argument, I'd say that if you are paying a subscription service for one you should be able to choose when you get to ride in one injured or not, just like Orson Welles used to do.

 

[CriticalMiss]

This is one of the reasons why I never want to live in the USA, I'd rather know that if I get ill or need surgery I won't become bankrupt to save my life. It's also horrible that the US pays billions upon billions to fly around the world murdering people but somehow can't find a fraction of that to cover at least some of the cost of their healthcare system (or lack thereof). They are happy enough to have socialised education, police, fire and postal services but social healthcare would apparently make everyone communists overnight.

Maybe one day they will join the rest of us in the first world. Until then we just have to watch as the wreckage piles up.

 

[Marcus Kehoe]

If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.

But we can't do that, what if every other world increases navy? we might only have triple the number the aircraft carriers than any country in the world, and what then? We clearly need to match every aircraft carrier with our own and then some.

 

[BishopofAges]

I am tired of the entire truckload of junk one has to do in order to get medical help these days, I would be happy if they just took out a chunk from my check. This chunk would guarantee that I can show up with a knife sticking out of my chest with a bloody sticky note attached that says "Fix it!" and not be hassled by every bit of paperwork that they can dream up.

 

[Something Amyss]

I think you need to try to murder at least one ethnicity, and then if anyone complains, get defensive and so you were only doing it ironically, so you are above criticism.

Too much work. I preferred it when people called me a goth. All I had to do to live up to that was wear black occasionally.

...Seriously, I got asked a couple of hours ago why I always wear black. As I was standing in the hall of my building wearing a blue faux-tie-dye Hendrix shirt and blue lounge pants.

I think I've wander off the topic, which was...Why the stars shine at night!

No, wait.

Health care!

Last year the the non profit NHS made record provision for medical negligence of £22.7 billion out of annual budget of £108 billion.

And? I didn't say that people weren't going to sue. I didn't say that it wasn't going to cost. I'm

To have a free at the point of use health service you would need to shut down the entire defense budget and some other departments as well.

Or, you know...cost control.

 

[Jacco]

It seems to work here in the UK and a lot of other countries. Sure the system is far from perfect and the wards arent like a five star hotel but it does the job. What is america doing so wrong that we are doing right...or vice versa?

Healthcare is just insanely expensive here, way more than any other country. I could guess at some reason why but I'm sure the root causes are a topic of discussion for more educated individuals. I just have to leave it by saying "That's how it is here"

It's why the analogies to other countries with working healthcare systems don't always work. The government cant afford to provide all its citizens with a free MRIs when an MRI costs 10 times as much as in other countries. I think its been shown that America actually spends more on healthcare than many other countries yet has less coverage, all because of prices.

I worked in medical billing for a while.

The reason costs are higher here as opposed to Europe is because of many, many reasons, the largest being our population. The US has around 300 million people, or roughly 40% of the entire population of Europe COMBINED. This causes issues with supply and demand. People end up going to hospitals for bloody noses and colds which ends up costing the hospital time and money they could be using for other things. The capitalistic nature of our society (as opposed to the more socialistic nature of European society) also means that prices go up because companies and hospitals want to make a profit and people end up paying it.

It is also a problem with how higher education is set up. Going through medical school is astronomically expensive and because the government does not pay for a large portion of high education expenses, that cost ends up coming out of pocket. So doctors end up wanting more money to cover their loans and (in my opinion) they deserve it for working so hard and so long at something like that.

It is also a case of supply markups since there are so many middle men. Everyone needs to make money. So while a bandaid might only cost .02 cents coming straight from the manufacturer, it goes through the transportation system to the distributor who marks it up to cover costs of shipping and transportation, then it goes to the hospital which marks it up to cover those costs, and before you know it, a bandaid costs $3.00.

Put all those together with many other problems I'm not really in the mood to address here and you've got yourself an expensive industry.

The way I understand it works in Europe (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that the government covers and regulates the costs of all I mentioned above so that costs stay artificially down on the surface. It is also split up among however many countries there are so no one government is covering 300 million people at once.

That's why European-style universal health care will never work in the US. There are simply too many people. The only way I see it working here is if each state were to build its own government funded paying system and then manage that individually while the federal government helps keep medical school costs down via a stipend or something. But a single payer system would collapse. I mean, we already have Medicare an Medicaid and both of those are constantly being jury-rigged to keep them simply falling over.