Morrowind 2011 Mod Collection Pulled After Complaints

[Starke]

Fiercely protective of their work? Honestly most of the decent modders just say "Do whatever as long as you give credit." Thats not really protective. Its the wankers - and there's many of them out their - that get their knickers in a twist about these kind of things that ruin it for everyone.

I guess I just ran into too many of the shitty ones in short succession, and it colored my perspectives...

 

[Starke]

I'd take the second part a little further and more cynically, and suggest, "What he did wasn't illegal because it didn't affect me, and only benefited me, and how dare someone who was wronged make life the slightest bit inconvenient for me, no matter the ethics involved." ...that may have been too cynical of me, however.

I wasn't trying to be sensical, I was trying to save everyone the trouble of creating another ten pages of the same posts.

Personally, I side a little more with the second group. There's very little functional difference between this and just providing links to all of the files that were combined in the pack along with the instructions and I don't think that ANYONE would have grounds to complain if he had done that despite the fact that the end result would be indentical to the result of just providing the pack. Moreover, as many have already mentioned, it's not an issue of credit, they just don't want it in the pack at all. While that's not technically the same as saying "you're not allowed to link to the download for my mod without permission", it's functionally pretty similar, which is why this seems so silly to me. To me at least, the creators complaining are mostly just being indignant because it makes them and their work seem more important (which is nothing new in mod distribution arguments).

To be fair, I think he probably should have asked permission first, but even having ignored that step, I think the complaints remain pretty silly.

The fact is, there are a lot of guides like this already out there. So there's a very shitty element of this where he wasn't doing anything new or creative, just taking credit, and alerting the media.

 

[Caiti Voltaire]

Fiercely protective of their work? Honestly most of the decent modders just say "Do whatever as long as you give credit." Thats not really protective. Its the wankers - and there's many of them out their - that get their knickers in a twist about these kind of things that ruin it for everyone.

I guess I just ran into too many of the shitty ones in short succession, and it colored my perspectives...

I think one of the unfortunate things about the deal is that its going to make other mod authors leery about contributing to the community, for fear of having to deal with this kind of drama. Its nothing new, as some people have pointed out, but that it keeps happening continually erode both authors' and users' faith in the community.

 

[Starke]

Fiercely protective of their work? Honestly most of the decent modders just say "Do whatever as long as you give credit." Thats not really protective. Its the wankers - and there's many of them out their - that get their knickers in a twist about these kind of things that ruin it for everyone.

I guess I just ran into too many of the shitty ones in short succession, and it colored my perspectives...

I think one of the unfortunate things about the deal is that its going to make other mod authors leery about contributing to the community, for fear of having to deal with this kind of drama. Its nothing new, as some people have pointed out, but that it keeps happening continually erode both authors' and users' faith in the community.

Yeah, I agree with you there.

Fair enough, my mistake: It's okay for Bethesda to do whatever they like with stuff you create, and not anyone who is unaffiliated. (Like Mr.Smith)

When you give up your moral rights to the material you create (as is stated in the EULA), Bethesda can do whatever they want, as you say. I'll grant that people who are unaffiliated with Bethesda (Mr. Smith) do not have the same permissions (he has the same powers as a creator of New Content as any other licensed user), but would add that the modders also lose their legal basis to defend what happens to their work...the option rests entirely with Bethesda.

The EULA grants rights to Bethesda they wouldn't otherwise have. You don't surrender rights to your work you usually would have (except you still can't sue Bethesda).

 

[SextusMaximus]

Glad he got banned etc. Those Mod workers worked fucking hard - it wasn't fair for him to compile them and take credit.

(Because yes, that is what he would have done)

 

[DocBalance]

I'm downloading this now, just to spite the assholes who made him take it down. It's still quite possible to find it.

 

[Caiti Voltaire]

I'm downloading this now, just to spite the assholes who made him take it down. It's still quite possible to find it.

As it will always be, honestly.

 

[Holy_Handgrenade]

It's a pretty savage life being a modder, isn't it? All those hours into a project which may or may not get pulled, and now all that work down the drain (so to speak)...

Shame, it looks beautiful too.

EDIT: Never mind I just learned to read. On second thoughts since he's basically had no creative input and just meshed together a load of other people's work, I can't sympathise this time.

Do you know how much time it would take for him to "mesh them together" it's not just the process of re-releasing them as a bundle he had to compile them to one download and made sure they all ran together with minimal bugs. Which is hard because if you load up two mods that don't like each other it basicaly makes the game go go crazy.



EDIT:

What. The. Fuck?

What the hell happened here? Was someone making money from this?

That's what I was thinking as I read this. Aren't mods, y'know, free? It's not like the guy was saying that he did all the work *personally*.

Being free doesn't give anyone right to rip it off.
For example, I might give away free postcards of my paintings at my art gallery. As a method for attracting guests to come see my paintings in full. That doesn't give anyone the right to produce enlarged version of those cards and display them on the street, even if they give me credit.

It's different, the mods aren't used for promotional use to attract people your postcard idea is.

 

[Holy_Handgrenade]

-snip-

 

[Maze1125]

What. The. Fuck?

What the hell happened here? Was someone making money from this?

That's what I was thinking as I read this. Aren't mods, y'know, free? It's not like the guy was saying that he did all the work *personally*.

Being free doesn't give anyone right to rip it off.
For example, I might give away free postcards of my paintings at my art gallery. As a method for attracting guests to come see my paintings in full. That doesn't give anyone the right to produce enlarged version of those cards and display them on the street, even if they give me credit.

It's different, the mods aren't used for promotional use to attract people your postcard idea is.

How do you know they're not?
Some of the people might well have been using them for exactly those reasons, or similar.

Anyway, it's not even about the money, even if my gallery was free, I would want people to come and see my paintings at my gallery, and I would not want them to think they didn't need to because some guy took copies of my paintings without permission and showed them off with a load of other people's paintings somewhere else.

 

[Maze1125]

I'm downloading this now, just to spite the assholes who made him take it down. It's still quite possible to find it.

Yeah, how dare people feel like they ought to be asked permission for their work to be used. Those bastards.

 

[Delusibeta]

Ladies and gentlemen, round two. [http://morrowind2011.ultimaaiera.com/]

 

[DocBalance]

I'm downloading this now, just to spite the assholes who made him take it down. It's still quite possible to find it.

Yeah, how dare people feel like they ought to be asked permission for their work to be used. Those bastards.

Yes, because permission should need be be asked so someone can put your FREE mod in their FREE mod compilation. Especially when you make the mod publicly available for FREE.

Seriously. I'm a writer. I write stories. I'm looking into selling them, and I've even got offers. So don't think I'm just another twit who doesn't respect what a business is. But if I were to make one of my stories publicly available for free, and then someone put it into a compilation, and my name was put on the story, guess what? I have no right to get butt-hurt over it. I put it out there and said "Do whatever the hell you want as long as you give me credit", and they fulfilled that idea. I may not like the company my story is keeping in the compilation, but it's my fault for making it public, thus why I don't do freebie stories publicly.

If you are a mod-maker, and your fragile ego can't stand being part of an incredible compilation that is going to expose your work to more people than you could ever hope to get to alone, then you don't deserve the attention the compilation-maker was giving you.

 

[sheic99]

For once, I'm with the lawsuits here. He used the mods without the original owners permission. I can almost guarantee that if he contacted the creators first, this would never have happened.

I would rather have all the mods compiled into an easy package than find all of them myself. It doesnt generate any money for the modders, they're credited anyway. I think substantial work went into this finding mods that don't conflict, maybe not as much work as the sum of its parts, but enough to warrant it being a separate work in its own right.

If he contacted the creators first, they probably would've said no if the stance they're taking now is this extreme, also, people make mod-packs all the time, the only reason this one is being brought down is because its popular.

Mods are like a sculpture that was placed in a park by the city. Everyone walking by it can see and enjoy the sculpture, but that does not give any person the right to print a picture of that sculpture and reuse it's likeness in a commercial setting without the authorized consent of the original creator. It doesn't matter if the creator was credited or not, you need permission to use other people's work.

 

[MasterCorran]

Instead of trying to argue who's in the wrong here, I think we should start to ask ourselves: what do we gain and what do we lose from this (for those of you who still play Morrowind anyway)?

What do we gain?

Other than paying proper respect to the original authors of those mods, I don't see any benefit whatsoever from this outcome. It's not like they would have lost anything substantial because of what Tyler did. Sure, they did put a lot of effort into making the mods themselves; there is no denying their contributions. But other than the recognition and fame in the modding community and self-gratification, what do they actually gain from it? Nothing that would have mattered or tangibly benefitted them in their lives. Recognition and fame are mostly superficial things that will fade away in time. As the saying goes, "Glory is no use to the dead."

The only thing we've gain from this is a lesson: always ask for permission before using someone else's mod, personal use notwithstanding if you don't want to get bombed on later.

What do we lose?

To the people who still play Morrowind, this news can be considered a big blow to them. Tyler took the trouble of compiling what he thought was the best of mods for Morrowind and configured them so they wouldn't clash or cause problems in the game. It's actually a boon for Morrowind gamers, especially the less mod-savvy ones, as he saved them the hassle of searching and downloading each mod individually in addition to doing the painstaking process of configuring the mods to work without issue. He even gave the modders credits (whether it was suffient or not, I'm not really sure) which is better than giving them nothing at all. There other people out there who don't bother to give credits at all and some even go as far as to remove any trace of the original author from the mod.


I'll admit that Tyler made a big blunder when he didn't ask the authors for permission first before he put their mods into his compilation but I think that Bethesda and the authors went a little too far with their punishment. Banning him and threatening him with legal action just seems too extreme especially when he explicitly expressed that he wanted to reach a middle ground where everyone is happy. To me, it's just an honest mistake on his part, one that any human being could have made.


Why didn't they just simply talk it out with him? He seems reasonable. Maybe some mods could have been removed from the compilation but at least the Morrowind gamers could have gotten a better game out of it. Now, they get nothing. All because of ethical technicalities.


And before we start to say that Tyler deserved it, let's take a step back first and realize that there are other people out there who are way worse than this guy. For instance, google the "Team Exile and Darth Balor" incident at FileFront and you'll see.

 

[Maze1125]

But if I were to make one of my stories publicly available for free, and then someone put it into a compilation, and my name was put on the story, guess what? I have no right to get butt-hurt over it. I put it out there and said "Do whatever the hell you want as long as you give me credit", and they fulfilled that idea. I may not like the company my story is keeping in the compilation, but it's my fault for making it public, thus why I don't do freebie stories publicly.

Well, obviously you don't know what you're talking about, because you absolutely do have the legal right to get "butt-hurt" about someone doing that without your permission.

Of course, if you explicitly say on the story that "You can do whatever you want with this, you don't need to ask, just give credit." then you would have forfeited that right, but I'm guessing these modders didn't do that.

Maybe you personally wouldn't choose to get "butt-hurt" over it, but they did choose to.

What do we lose?

The answer to that is "Pretty much nothing" as the compilation is still out there, it just a bit harder to find. So we gained a minor lesson and lost some minor level of convenience. Seems pretty much tit-for-tat to me.

 

[DocBalance]

Well, obviously you don't know what you're talking about, because you absolutely do have the legal right to get "butt-hurt" about someone doing that without your permission.

Of course, if you explicitly say on the story that "You can do whatever you want with this, you don't need to ask, just give credit." then you would have forfeited that right, but I'm guessing these modders didn't do that.

Maybe you personally wouldn't choose to get "butt-hurt" over it, but they did choose to.

No. No I don't. It falls under Fair Use, provided no money is changing hands. Besides of which, even that situation is giving the modders too much credit. It's more like me freaking out because someone used my Thundercats fanfiction(hypothetically speaking, I've never actually written fanfiction) in a handy bundle of Thundercats related fanfiction and gave me full credit for my work. See, there is no original product being moved here. These modders just used an existing property and expanded it. They just happened to do it well. However, since he isn't claiming credit for writing the mods, isn't making money, and isn't doing anything but placing them all conveniently in one package so you don't have to hunt around the net for three hours, then they have no legal defense, and no ethical defense on their side.

Let's take the post card example from earlier. What if you found out someone was using one of your postcards as part of a collage on their publicly available blog about traveling the world? Should they have to ask permission to slap the post card provided to them on a piece of cardboard? Hell no. That's ludicrous. This is no different, and anyone who has studied copyright law will tell you the same. That's even giving in to the absolutely baffling idea that copyrights even come in to play in this situation(they don't) or that copyright law is in of itself not an inherently flawed legal monstrosity that has been abused to death by greedy bastards who don't understand what "Fair Use" means.

 

[Mr. Socky]

Some asshole being an asshole deprived me of a Morrowind that doesn't look like ass. Yay.

So the Morrowind 2011 mod got taken down because all the modders whos mods were modded into the mod got mad?

That sucks, I don't even play Morrowind and that sucks

I can understand that people would be angry that their stuff was used illegally, but the mod looked fantastic. You'd think that they'd try to FIX the problem, not blow it to hell.

So, yeah. It sucks.

 

[Freyar]

Fair Use does not apply to ANY aspect here. These are not parody, criticisms, nor used for Education.

 

[Maze1125]

It falls under Fair Use, provided no money is changing hands.

No it doesn't. Fair use is just that fair use. It's taking a character of someone else, or one image. It is not copying their entire work, or their entire gallery.

I cannot take an entire short story someone wrote and stick it in a free book of short stories without their permission. I can take passages or examples or characters from that story provided I'm not trying to make a profit.

Taking a small part is fair use, copying the entirety is not.

Besides of which, even that situation is giving the modders too much credit. It's more like me freaking out because someone used my Thundercats fanfiction(hypothetically speaking, I've never actually written fanfiction) in a handy bundle of Thundercats related fanfiction and gave me full credit for my work. See, there is no original product being moved here. These modders just used an existing property and expanded it. They just happened to do it well. However, since he isn't claiming credit for writing the mods, isn't making money, and isn't doing anything but placing them all conveniently in one package so you don't have to hunt around the net for three hours, then they have no legal defense, and no ethical defense on their side.

Nice twist using fanfiction, which everyone thinks of as not worthy of any respect at all.
Mods are not like fanfiction, fanfiction can be done by anyone, mods require actual coding talent.

A far more accurate analogy would be one where someone had their own art gallery of paintings they'd done of Lord of the Rings characters and someone copied all those paintings and put them together in one big art gallery of load of different people's paintings of Lord of the Rings characters without even asking once.

It doesn't matter in the slightest if both galleries are free, that is not fair use.

and anyone who has studied copyright law will tell you the same.

Would this person have studied the copyright laws of every country in the world?
Because this is not an issue of any one country. These mods were made by people from all over the world and the compilation was given to anyone in the world.