Most evil person in history?
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Sorry I have to go for popes here. No offence to current popes and catholics, but the old ones were sadistic powerhunger greedy bastards. In my opinion they did unreversable damage to the world. Otherwise I'll have to go to Stalin, but I doubt his influence will remain longer then 200 or 300 years. No wait Mao Zedong is probably worst destroying most of an over 3000 year old culture, and killing milliones in the process.
Hitler definitely was an awefull guy, but he doesn't make my top ten. He was a product of his environment, Germany was ill treaded, people were hungry and poor and I doubt the jews were up to sharing their jobs and above else he was a raving lunatic. As horrible as it may sound I can not see him as one of the most evil persons ever existed.
Hitler definitely was an awefull guy, but he doesn't make my top ten. He was a product of his environment, Germany was ill treaded, people were hungry and poor and I doubt the jews were up to sharing their jobs and above else he was a raving lunatic. As horrible as it may sound I can not see him as one of the most evil persons ever existed.
Lenin wasn't a "strongman" in the traditional sense, because he was one of the founders of the revolution. The Soviet Union was founded out of the ashes of a corrupt monarchy. I never said Every single leader of communist nations is evil, I said every communist GOVERNMENT eventually resorts to evil, because as the years go by the strongman becomes the only way to force people to submit to a system that can't keep any of it's promises.RandomNameRandom said:
Also, no, my post was not copied and pasted. I attempted to preemptively destroy and disable your ammunition stockpiles *wink*. I love debate, and I also hate communism. I've therefore had this discussion a thousand times. My apologies if not everything I said was directly applicable to your particular viewpoints. I was arguing against communism in theory, not merely it's representative in front of me.
I'd like you to think about this. Why do the words "self interest" put a bad taste in your mouth? Do you think humanity has more to offer the universe than ants? Personally, I do. I doubt there would be much art or creativity in a world where the dominant species was hive minded, and worked only for the betterment of the whole. I am not saying that as humans we shouldn't care about humanity. I am saying that as humans we should be free to live, create, and provide for whomever we choose to provide for. For me, it is my wife, my two children, and then myself, in that order. Beyond that, I give to charity, and I help those I can within my social circle.
I pay taxes specifically for the government to provide what services they are obligated to provide as per the 18 enumerated powers of the constitution. Congress has no authority beyond that, and any taxes collected towards execution of authority beyond that, I consider stolen. The constitution isn't some dusty outdated guideline. It is the foundation of all law in this country, and has the force of law itself. Any law created in contradiction to the guidelines of our constitution is invalid. There is a process by which our constitution can be amended if that is necessary. Such was the case with the abolition of slavery, and the granting of universal sufferage. If you and those like you feel that our constitution is lacking, then feel free to add to it in the manner laid down by law. Neither you nor your avatars in government however have the authority in any way to simply ignore it. This is a nation of laws, not the whims of men.
Sometimes, I get on a roll, so.... just keep in mind, I'm talking to everybody. It's a group discussion. I realize that you may not even be an American, and even if you were, that we weren't talking about the constitution. Like I said, I get going, and I bring it all to the table. hehe
plus..... its really late.....
"The only thing man can learn from history, is that man cannot learn from history."Matt Oliver said:
Just had to throw that in there.
OT: The most evil people are likely people you've never heard of. But, if I had to pick a well-known individual. I would pick whoever was president of the US during WWII. Firebombing of Dresden killed 40,000; and there were firebombings that killed more. Hiroshima. Nagasaki. A lot of innocent civilians were killed to end that war. If I had to pick someone from very recent history, I'd say George W. Bush. It is my belief that the things he did will lead to a major, global economic disaster within the next decade. And he had no reason to believe that it wouldn't. That's evil.
Who is the most evil person in history? God. He sends down a bunch of different prophets and commandment sets down so religion is confusing and violent, he smites people for not following his rules, he ordered moses to murder a town, he had his son crucified for shit that wasn't even his fault, he kills people at random for no reason, and to top it all off, he created this whole mess in the first place. Genocide, murder, crime in general. He put our brains together like that. He also invented nature, the cruelest force ever. And he also put a bunch of rocks out in space that could hit and kill us all at any time along with black holes and rogue stars and every other astronomical danger. Also according to some religions every accident that ever happened is gods will. So he's to blame for that too. I'd rather hang out with the devil, at least his place is warm.
What ridiculous trash. Tobacco companies don't kill anybody. They sell a product. They have not once ever forced anyone to buy it. If you are stupid enough to use it until it kills you, then that's your choice. Saying tobacco companies kill people is no different than saying they were killed by OREO cookies, or Mcdonalds. Almost anything can kill you if you are to stupid to know it's or your own limits. You can even die from drinking to much water. Grow up and take responsibility for your own actions.thatguy1 said:
"Few people on this planet knows what it is to be truly despised. Can you blame them? I earn a living fronting an organization that kills 1200 people a day. Twelve hundred people. We're talking two jumbo jet plane loads of men, women and children. I mean, there's Attila, Genghis... and me, Nick Naylor. The face of cigarettes, the Colonel Sanders of nicotine."
Sorry, but apart from some pretty sick things you said ("I doubt the jews were up to sharing their jobs"? Really? Can't we throw some clichee of stealing polacks in there,while we are at it?) how were Stalin and Mao not products of their enironment? If I am not totally mistaken, there were some reasons for the revolutions in Question.rutger5000 said:
OT: Apart from the obvious choices, I'll vote for the Spanish Inquisition guys.
Very well said sir, I honestly couldn't have put it better myself. I love the deep-down internal contradictions that nobody seems to notice about the communist ideal, but I digress. Out of curiosity, have you ever read the Sword of Truth series?Travis Higuet said:
One thing that I really really really want to emphasize about your post because it is so often overlooked and is such a very very important point:
"The left's problem with capitalism isn't that it's not fair, but rather that it is. Capitalism is even forgiving in its fairness. Fail once, and you'll get another chance. Fail at that, and you can have another. Nobody is stopping you. The left will never admit that of course, because the left doesn't understand fairness despite their endless use of the word to flog their political opponents. Fairness is when you get what you have earned. You reap both the benefits, and the consequences of the choices that YOU make."
Admittedly, capitalism doesn't do this perfectly, once a business becomes big it has a lot of advantages that limit the ability of others to compete, but it certainly does this better than communism.
I am quite far from being religious myself, but I would respectfully point out that the Bible itself has a lot of really good messages in it about love and being accepting and understanding(so does the Qur'an, and most other religious texts, for that matter, and before someone tries to contradict me: jihad just means 'struggle' as in the struggle to survive and worship as a Muslim, the idea has been used, perversely, by radical clerics, especially in the last century, to mean preemptive violence, which is not how the vast majority of muslims interprets that word).Saelune said:
However, I would say, in keeping with the tone of this thread, that the most evil type of people in history are one's who take the messages of love and peace and understanding in religious texts and use them to justify violence and seclusion and bigotry of a great deal of varieties. They give their religion and beliefs a bad name and are by far the worst type of hypocrits, in my opinion.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved millions of Japanese and American, military and civilian lives. Japan started the war, and they could have surrendered at any time. The American high command was preparing an invasion of mainland Japan to end the war. This would have resulted in an estimated half million American military casualties, and around 3 to 4 times as many Japanese military casualties. On top of that would have been millions of Japanese civilians dying to indirect fire from both sides and starvation. The damage done to Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a terrible price for the Japanese to pay to end the war that they started, but as much as you don't like to hear it, millions of lives were saved. The targets were even specifically chosen because of relatively low populations, and genuine military significance. The target could have been Kyoto. Kyoto had thus far been relatively untouched out of respect, and because there was little heavy industry.spartan231490 said:
First of all. I have to say that it is in my opinion. Absolutely pointless to indulge in moral judgments of other people. Labeling people "evil" because of their actions does not solve the problems of their actions nor does It address the root causes of people's behavior.
Everything is subject to cause and effect, including people. Every person is a product of billions of different factors and there is a reason behind everything, including what you think and believe. Studies have show that our brains make decisions a few seconds before we even consciously think them. What does that say about the concept of free will?
I don't believe in forgiving "evil" people for what they have done but I don't believe in condemning them either.
Also, relating to what I said before. Human behavior always has root causes behind it, this applies to crime, war, violence etc. If you educate yourself properly I think you'll find that not only does structural violence kill more than all the behavioral violence put together, but structural violence is also THE MAIN CAUSE of behavioral violence.
There are too many things posted in this for me to quote, but what I am saying applies to all of the people who are making statements about human nature and communism when they really don't know what they're talking about.
On the subject of human nature: The ideas that behaviors like greed, selfishness, corruption are inherent in humans is complete bullshit. Almost everybody who talks about "human nature" has no idea what they're talking about. They only thing that is inherent to humans in our basic needs that are required for survival. People are conditioned by their environment to become who they are. There is too much information on this subject for me to present it all, this post is already long enough. I just wish people would do some actual research on things before they go about spreading their opinions arrogantly, their minds full of social-conditioning, paradigms and misconceptions about things like human nature.
Any open-minded intellectuals who would like to learn about the reality of our society and the Socio-Economic System that dominates our civilization, as well as about the causes of human behavior, I would recommend you take the time to watch this and other related productions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
Everything is subject to cause and effect, including people. Every person is a product of billions of different factors and there is a reason behind everything, including what you think and believe. Studies have show that our brains make decisions a few seconds before we even consciously think them. What does that say about the concept of free will?
I don't believe in forgiving "evil" people for what they have done but I don't believe in condemning them either.
You obviously have never studied Marx's work and I doubt you have attempted to understand it outside of your biased perspective. On another note, people often use the death tolls of people like Stalin to discredit Socio-economic systems like communism. However it is important to to know that structural violence, that is where people are subject to poor conditions against them due to the Socio-economic system they live in, causes far more death and suffering than any brutal dictator. Things like poverty where 15,000+ poor children die every month. There are over a billion people starving on this planet while 1% of the richest of the population hold over 40% of all the wealth and resources.Brett Dumain said:
Also, relating to what I said before. Human behavior always has root causes behind it, this applies to crime, war, violence etc. If you educate yourself properly I think you'll find that not only does structural violence kill more than all the behavioral violence put together, but structural violence is also THE MAIN CAUSE of behavioral violence.
There are too many things posted in this for me to quote, but what I am saying applies to all of the people who are making statements about human nature and communism when they really don't know what they're talking about.
On the subject of human nature: The ideas that behaviors like greed, selfishness, corruption are inherent in humans is complete bullshit. Almost everybody who talks about "human nature" has no idea what they're talking about. They only thing that is inherent to humans in our basic needs that are required for survival. People are conditioned by their environment to become who they are. There is too much information on this subject for me to present it all, this post is already long enough. I just wish people would do some actual research on things before they go about spreading their opinions arrogantly, their minds full of social-conditioning, paradigms and misconceptions about things like human nature.
Any open-minded intellectuals who would like to learn about the reality of our society and the Socio-Economic System that dominates our civilization, as well as about the causes of human behavior, I would recommend you take the time to watch this and other related productions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
There are some pretty nasty criminals from the UK who I could say are the most evil in the world - Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, the moors murderers - they killed five children between the ages of 10 and 17 after sexually assaulting most of them and buried them in shallow graves on the Yorkshire Moors. Hindley has since died, but the secret location of the grave of the fourth victim will likely go with Brady to his grave and he still show no signs of remorse, despite repeated calls from him to be allowed to die.
Fred and Rose West, who tortured, raped and murdered at least 12 young women / girls. Rose killed Fred's daughter while he was in prison for theft and Fred killed his ex-wife on his release. Then it started with a downward spiral and while it is claimed they murdered more, no more evidence was found. The victims were buried at the couple's home at 25 Cromwell Street in Gloucester. They were eventually undone, as Fred filmed himself raping one of his daughters. She informed some of her school friends, who told parents and this got back to the police, who investigated in 1992 - the investigation culminated in the investigation of an old "joke" about "heather being buried under the patio", leading to search warrants being issued and the whole garden being dug up, to reveal the victims.
Fred West confessed to the murders and committed suicide on the 1st of January 1995. Rosemary was tried in October of 1995 and is serving life for the 10 murders that she was found guilty of involvement with.
On top of these evil people, we can look at Joseph Fritzl - evil enough to imprison his 18 year old daughter in the cellar of his home, evil enough to tell his wife that she had run away from home, evil enough to have an incestuous relationship with her and evil enough to father seven children with her, bringing three of them to the surface and having them live with him and his wife, while all the time keeping this ghastly secret from her. When one of his children died a few hours after birth, he calmly disposed of the body in an incinerator, without any ceremony and he only allowed the story to break after his eldest daughter from this second brood nearly died of an acute kidney complaint.
This man shows no remorse for what he has done, much like Brady, though West obviously felt disgusted with himself deep down, as he hung himself in prison. They are all pretty messed up and evil, though on a much smaller scale than people like Hitler, Pol Pot, Amin and all the rest that make headlines across the world for their crimes.
It's all relative.
Fred and Rose West, who tortured, raped and murdered at least 12 young women / girls. Rose killed Fred's daughter while he was in prison for theft and Fred killed his ex-wife on his release. Then it started with a downward spiral and while it is claimed they murdered more, no more evidence was found. The victims were buried at the couple's home at 25 Cromwell Street in Gloucester. They were eventually undone, as Fred filmed himself raping one of his daughters. She informed some of her school friends, who told parents and this got back to the police, who investigated in 1992 - the investigation culminated in the investigation of an old "joke" about "heather being buried under the patio", leading to search warrants being issued and the whole garden being dug up, to reveal the victims.
Fred West confessed to the murders and committed suicide on the 1st of January 1995. Rosemary was tried in October of 1995 and is serving life for the 10 murders that she was found guilty of involvement with.
On top of these evil people, we can look at Joseph Fritzl - evil enough to imprison his 18 year old daughter in the cellar of his home, evil enough to tell his wife that she had run away from home, evil enough to have an incestuous relationship with her and evil enough to father seven children with her, bringing three of them to the surface and having them live with him and his wife, while all the time keeping this ghastly secret from her. When one of his children died a few hours after birth, he calmly disposed of the body in an incinerator, without any ceremony and he only allowed the story to break after his eldest daughter from this second brood nearly died of an acute kidney complaint.
This man shows no remorse for what he has done, much like Brady, though West obviously felt disgusted with himself deep down, as he hung himself in prison. They are all pretty messed up and evil, though on a much smaller scale than people like Hitler, Pol Pot, Amin and all the rest that make headlines across the world for their crimes.
It's all relative.
Shiro Ishii head off Unit 731 he experimented on Chinese villagers in the second world war his experiments make Nazi experiments look like a walk in the park (the Nazi,s had the courtesy of killing their subjects before pulling their gut,s out).
The worst part is that the US let him go in exchange for the research data he never spend a day in jail for the crimes he committed against humanity.
Death-rates due to cancer are still significantly higher in those portions of Japan than other points in the advanced world. The same effect could have been accomplished by nuking a completely unpopulated area and then dropping single false bombs in several Japanese cities. It would have proven the point just as well, and I doubt they would have even needed to drop the other bomb. I find this ironic, because usually I argue for the dropping of the bombs, because it was the quickest road to victory. Honestly, I don't really think that the american gov't should have been all that concerned with Japanese lives. Their job is to protect american people, and Japan started the war, so ending the war while sacrificing the least American lives should prolly have been their goal. However, that doesn't mean that it wasn't, at the very least, inhumane, if not evil.Travis Higuet said:
Also, that doesn't address the firebombing of many German cities. While the German's also pushed the war, they were no direct risk to American civilians in any numbers, so I can't really justify American's bombing the fuck out of German civilians. Admittedly, that's how war was fought back then, both sides did, and a whole lot of innocent people died, but that doesn't make it right.
Every communist government to date has resorted to violence or suppression to keep the people down but my main point is that these governments were never truly communist, rather they hid their totalitarian nature behind a facade of supposed communism, I try not to try to convince people to be communist considering that I myself am not communist because I know that true communism is impossible, I actually support modern socialism like that in countries like Finland.Travis Higuet said:
I also love debate it's so much fun but only when the person whom your debating has roughly the same understanding of the topic that you do. Over time a lot of people I've known have all these presumptions about communism that simply aren't true. These presumptions originated from all the American propaganda that our parents were taught to believe and were then passed onto us. So I myself have had tons discussions regarding the topic but none have come anywhere as in depth as this wonderful conversation I've had with you and the other guy from the first few posts. Of course when it comes down to it for me I just absolutely hate misinformation, nothing annoys me more than that, I get just as passionate when someone says like for instance that Linux or programming is pointless (yes I've actually had that conversation).
Well when it comes to self interest, the reason that that makes me so upset is that all my life I've been taught to put others needs ahead of my own, when I think back to how selfish I was as a child I am completely disgusted every time I think of how my selfishness may have hurt others I almost want to cry. However I'm not against people acting outside of some hivemindish thing, look at Leon Theremin he experimented and created one of the most interesting musical instruments ever, he did this in the Soviet Union, see just because people need to act for the benefit of others doesn't mean that they aren't free to try new thing and innovate.
Actually I do happen to be American, but for me that never seems to matter on the internet. I love the internet because of how little governments have intervened in it so far I don't take into consideration anything laid out in the laws and rules of whatever country someone is from because in my estimation it's just someone on the internet sharing their ideas. I think this free flow of information and ideas makes the internet a wonderful thing despite all the horrible things here.
yeah it is getting a bit late, but this has been an excellent conversation so far thanks so much
This. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Tobacco is not evil. Its a shrub. Tobacco doesn't kill smokers, smokers kill smokers. Same argument for everyone posting about communism, soviet Russia wasn't Marx's fault, his ideas were not evil. The real villain is Stalin, who used these ideas for his own ends. But I'm still adamant that Michael Atkinson is worse.Travis Higuet said:What ridiculous trash. Tobacco companies don't kill anybody. They sell a product. They have not once ever forced anyone to buy it. If you are stupid enough to use it until it kills you, then that's your choice. Saying tobacco companies kill people is no different than saying they were killed by OREO cookies, or Mcdonalds. Almost anything can kill you if you are to stupid to know it's or your own limits. You can even die from drinking to much water. Grow up and take responsibility for your own actions.thatguy1 said:
"Few people on this planet knows what it is to be truly despised. Can you blame them? I earn a living fronting an organization that kills 1200 people a day. Twelve hundred people. We're talking two jumbo jet plane loads of men, women and children. I mean, there's Attila, Genghis... and me, Nick Naylor. The face of cigarettes, the Colonel Sanders of nicotine."
What about second hand smoke? also, look at the movie, they compare death tolls. Alcohol doesn't even come close to cigs. It's also nowhere near as addictive.hiks89 said:what about alcohol companies? they dont just kill you they kill anyone you are around...thatguy1 said:
"Few people on this planet knows what it is to be truly despised. Can you blame them? I earn a living fronting an organization that kills 1200 people a day. Twelve hundred people. We're talking two jumbo jet plane loads of men, women and children. I mean, there's Attila, Genghis... and me, Nick Naylor. The face of cigarettes, the Colonel Sanders of nicotine."
I seriously doubt that the inhabitants of Hiroshima were a direct risk to American civilians at that point of the war either.spartan231490 said: